Viper entirely outclasses Eagle?

[Mephane]

This is a question to all those who already had the chance to try out the Viper, and did fly an Eagle in the past.

From all descriptions as well as the known stats, it appears that the Viper is, in every respect, better han the Eagle.

- 2 class 4 + 2 class 2 hardpoints vs 3 class 2
- Higher top speed
- Larger cargo bay
- (Presumably) stronger hull and shields (remember the Eagle already is weak in both reagrds, I can't imagine the Viper being weaker).
- Maneuvrability? I heard it is great but no idea how it compares to the Eagle

What are the drawbacks? How much quicker does the Eagle turn (if it does at all)? Does the Viper run hot even more easily than an Eagle?

Disclaimer: I love the Viper and am looking forward to trying it out myself eventually, but I also love the Eagle and it would be a shame if that would be demoted to a mere starting ship sidegrade.

(I am still holding out a grudge against whoever made it that the Dagger in Freelancer was a low level ship, best design in the entire game and entirely useless once you can afford something bigger.)

 

[Bobbydylan]

What's the advantage of owning a Ford Fiesta over an Aston Martin?

Cost. It's more expensive to buy, run and insure.

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

Eagle costs 12k now.... so what's the problem?

The Cobra out classes the Eagle as well In terms of speed and if you toggle FA on/off the turn rate difference is not really an issue either. If you can't get behind a ship thats slower than you, just reverse for the win.

 

[Mephane]

Eagle costs 12k now.... so what's the problem?

These prices are most likely placeholders in order to quicken our progress for the moment.

And I understand that since the Viper is more expensive, it needs to offer something for the money. But so far, each ship had its advantages and drawbacks besides the purchase, insurance and repair cost. I am just quite sick of all the games with linear progression where you better learn to love the "endgame" stuff because everything else is a mere intermediary thing.

The same problem probably applies to the Sidewinder, which so far has been treated as the starter ship that everyone is supposed to grow out of - what about Sidewinder fans who would like it to be more than just the thing everyone else wants to get rid of as soon as possible?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

indeed.... I have mentioned this before but this is the .main downside of competitive MP being in a game.

Elite in the past has never had any issue with some things being flat out "better" than others. This really is not a problem in single player games.

however generally in competitive MP balance is everything, and whilst I can see why that is, equally I miss the idea of spending 10s of hrs saving up for a new ship if all it was ultimately was a sidegrade.

Its a tough one, and I am biased as someone who is not competitive at all, but IF the viper does outclass the eagle, so long as it is more expensive, I am perfectly happy with that, otherwise i may as well just stick with the eagle if to all intents and purposes it is as good as a viper, just with its stats tweaked in a few places..

I do totally "get" why some do not look at it that way however.

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

If the prices are just placeholders which they probably are, then that means all the ships will likely have a cross the board price hike. In itself that is a balancing act, because those who put in the effort will get the better stuff sooner.

I'm not too bothered by the prices now or the possibility of higher prices in general. I'll only play true online with real life friends. I've had my fill of PvP in PB2 to know that Peer hosted servers and the world's current networking systems as a whole are not at the level they need to be to provide a consistent reliable play sessions without needing to worry about random drops or things like latencies... among other things like teleporting ships and invincible NPCs.

 

[Thelas]

Eagle costs 12k now.... so what's the problem?
.

I've seen them as low as 4464Cr today.

 

[Kulin]

indeed.... I have mentioned this before but this is the .main downside of competitive MP being in a game.

Elite in the past has never had any issue with some things being flat out "better" than others. This really is not a problem in single player games.

however generally in competitive MP balance is everything, and whilst I can see why that is, equally I miss the idea of spending 10s of hrs saving up for a new ship if all it was ultimately was a sidegrade.

Its a tough one, and I am biased as someone who is not competitive at all, but IF the viper does outclass the eagle, so long as it is more expensive, I am perfectly happy with that, otherwise i may as well just stick with the eagle if to all intents and purposes it is as good as a viper, just with its stats tweaked in a few places..

I do totally "get" why some do not look at it that way however.

This is not competitive MP like battlefield or lol. Its an MMO with player progress represented by the ship you fly and equipment you can afford. Are you able to kill an level 1 dude with your level 95 char in wow? Or can you kill an titan with an Ibis in EvE? No! Any further questions?

 

[Mephane]

To clarify, my issue is not how much you get for the money for each ship. My issue is also not multiplayer related. My issue is entirely that, if you like A, but the game presents B which is superior to A in every way except it takes longer to attain, that you have the choice to replace A with B as soon as you can reach it, or forever gimp yourself.

I can live with a limited amount of performance loss due to personal preferences (for example I prefer lasers over projectile weapons simply because they are lasers, even though multicannons do more damage), but unless there is something I am missing in the picture, a 1vs1 fight Eagle vs Viper would always be won by the Viper if both pilots are equally competent, due to the sheer pressure of numbers.

 

[Darren Grey]

I'd hope price isn't the only difference. Each ship should have some attraction to them, instead of just being something you use temporarily whilst saving up for a bigger ship. Even the Sidewinder I'd like to see have a better role (perhaps as a tanky light trader, but it could do with more cargo space for that).

If the Viper is purely a better Eagle with a higher price tag then the Eagle might as well not exist in the game as most players will skip it save their money for a Viper. Money isn't a drawback to an item when it can be easily accrued over time.

Some ways this could be resolved:
- Vipers are somewhat exclusive - you need a special license to buy one, possibly earned through extensive bounty killing.
- Eagles are more manoeuvrable in combat, with the Vipers being great in a straight line but not so great at mid-combat turns.
- Eagles being better at stealth (which at the moment they're certainly not!)
- Vipers have poor hyperspace ranges (which makes sense for local police craft)

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

To clarify, my issue is not how much you get for the money for each ship. My issue is also not multiplayer related. My issue is entirely that, if you like A, but the game presents B which is superior to A in every way except it takes longer to attain, that you have the choice to replace A with B as soon as you can reach it, or forever gimp yourself.

I can live with a limited amount of performance loss due to personal preferences (for example I prefer lasers over projectile weapons simply because they are lasers, even though multicannons do more damage), but unless there is something I am missing in the picture, a 1vs1 fight Eagle vs Viper would always be won by the Viper if both pilots are equally competent, due to the sheer pressure of numbers.

that is true, but then that makes sense doesnt it?

like someone said earlier, I cant imagine any (sensible) senario where a ford fiesta would beat an aston martin in any head to head.

They both have 4 seats, both run on the same roads, but the aston martin is flat out faster, handles better and stops better. Also if push came to shove and I HAD to be in an accident in one of them, I reckon the aston would be more sturdy as well. (maybe you can get a little bit more luggage in the fiesta)

I am quite glad performance car manufacturers do not have to balance their vehicles with ford fiestas.

 

[Jexter]

EvE

Well if we're going to mention that game it's just as well we mention that ships in EVE, even the newb ships, have unique (more or less) bonuses that make them particularly well suited for certain activities. So the next step up to a more expensive ship doesn't always make sense there.

 

[Nutter]

To clarify, my issue is not how much you get for the money for each ship. My issue is also not multiplayer related. My issue is entirely that, if you like A, but the game presents B which is superior to A in every way except it takes longer to attain, that you have the choice to replace A with B as soon as you can reach it, or forever gimp yourself.

I can live with a limited amount of performance loss due to personal preferences (for example I prefer lasers over projectile weapons simply because they are lasers, even though multicannons do more damage), but unless there is something I am missing in the picture, a 1vs1 fight Eagle vs Viper would always be won by the Viper if both pilots are equally competent, due to the sheer pressure of numbers.

Don't understand where this is going, so when I have my Anoconda v's Viper?
The Viper is a heavy fighter and it turns slower than a Eagle.

In real life, fighters are used to swarm a bigger target not 1 on 1

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

Oh, well we still have yet to see what they have available where ship modifications are concerned. But it may only make a noticeable difference when you compare a modded Eagle to a Stock Viper. A stock viper will probably still out class a modded eagle though, but having a modded Eagle could still be cheaper or fill a more specific role that isnt available to the Viper through the same mod system.

 

[Jenner]

I'd hope price isn't the only difference. Each ship should have some attraction to them, instead of just being something you use temporarily whilst saving up for a bigger ship. Even the Sidewinder I'd like to see have a better role (perhaps as a tanky light trader, but it could do with more cargo space for that).

If the Viper is purely a better Eagle with a higher price tag then the Eagle might as well not exist in the game as most players will skip it save their money for a Viper. Money isn't a drawback to an item when it can be easily accrued over time.

Some ways this could be resolved:
- Vipers are somewhat exclusive - you need a special license to buy one, possibly earned through extensive bounty killing.
- Eagles are more manoeuvrable in combat, with the Vipers being great in a straight line but not so great at mid-combat turns.
- Eagles being better at stealth (which at the moment they're certainly not!)
- Vipers have poor hyperspace ranges (which makes sense for local police craft)

I entirely agree. Each ship should have it's place and not be simply a stepping stone to something better. Otherwise, as you say, entire swaths of the ships in the game might as well not exist since no one will ever use them.

If each ship has it's special role then that opens up a lot of interesting gamplay and player choice. Otherwise why bother?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I
Some ways this could be resolved:
- Vipers are somewhat exclusive - you need a special license to buy one, possibly earned through extensive bounty killing.

I do actually really like this idea... maybe even not just the viper, but being able to get "stuff" which is a slight improvement on anything you can buy in game, only gettable by doing certain missions - which you can only get by being a high enough faction.

***this only works so long as FD dont (and I am confident they wont) decide to sell this stuff for cash in the online shop!

This actually encourages a player to explore all facets of the game if you can get different stuff to put on your ship of choice only after getting very skilled with the different factions in the game.

 

[Ramireza]

I entirely agree. Each ship should have it's place and not be simply a stepping stone to something better. Otherwise, as you say, entire swaths of the ships in the game might as well not exist since no one will ever use them.

If each ship has it's special role then that opens up a lot of interesting gamplay and player choice. Otherwise why bother?

TBH : in PB2 i sold my cobra and bought a eagle again, because i like it much more in combat.

To the whole problem : They should use EVE as reference. Give the ships deeper roles, give them bonuses : Eagle Bonus 10% more damage with Stealth Lasers or more Interdiction Strengh/Range and so on.

 

[Yellonet]

What's the advantage of owning a Ford Fiesta over an Aston Martin?

Cost. It's more expensive to buy, run and insure.

+1 Yep, balance is not applicable for products with different cost.

 

[Yellonet]

To the whole problem : They should use EVE as reference. Give the ships deeper roles, give them bonuses : Eagle Bonus 10% more damage with Stealth Lasers or more Interdiction Strengh/Range and so on.

LOL NO!
Bonus like that has no place in this game.

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

TBH : in PB2 i sold my cobra and bought a eagle again, because i like it much more in combat.

To the whole problem : They should use EVE as reference. Give the ships deeper roles, give them bonuses : Eagle Bonus 10% more damage with Stealth Lasers or more Interdiction Strengh/Range and so on.

We don't have trait bonuses or anything of that nature. The only way you would attain such a thing is if you buy modifications for your ship, but it won't be "just because".

Let's try to not mention EvE from this point on in the thread since it will more than likely take it on a tangent.