Was graphics quality stealth-nerfed in the last update?

[n4p0l3on]

Did I ever say I play on a lower spec machine? People like you making posts without having read the full thread or even trying to grasp the meaning of a post give forums a bad name. Where in my post did I do any whining? I would love it if you would point it out to me. I made a statement based on the OP's statement and those of others within this post. I supported that statement with logical details that atest to that statement's validity. I explained a portion of game development in the most simplified format I could to appease the majority of readers. If you consider any of that whining then obviously you have no sense of what whining really is. And you most certainly have no sense as to what a logical person would post. Game optimization is a standard part of game development. Optimizing graphics in this game will undoubtedly change quality and performance for both ends of the spectrum. You are not the only gamer playing this game in case you didn't know. The development team does not exist to appease only you, or other top spec computer gamers. The game is optimized to be playable by everyone. This process improves and lowers graphics quality over time. The process attempts to find the best settings that will generate the best performance for the widest variety of machines. Once again, settings exist to be changed by those with any kind of machine, but it is unavoidable that the overall scale of graphics will change over time. If you have a better method for video game development, feel free to share; but once again, as I have described, this is considered the most effective method by the majority of development teams. If the development bothers you so much, don't play the game. But do not sit there and expect that changes will not occur. I bought the game for the upcoming features and endgame image, as did most people. It is for this reason I will accept the fluctuations in game content, bugs, and quality during these stages. This is by no means the final copy of this game, so there is no point in complaining about graphics which will undoubtedly be altered repeatedly throughout development. That was the purpose of my earlier post. Anyone with intelligence would understand that rather than seeing it as whining. Channel your energy into other more meaningful development things, like the content and bugs. Don't waste time posting about things that are bound to change. If you still consider this whining, then feel free to check yourself out of the forums, as everyone will be posting your dreaded whiny posts and it will save yourself the trouble.

your wall of text is annoying and not correct...

I consider graphics = content and graphical downgrade = bugs, I consider them as equal as the gameplay itself; so stop bullting around telling us to stop complaining about this matter

here's an obvious graphical downgrade for you



vs

 

[Top2323]

Come back when you have something actually worth posting.

Just because you're more creative insulting people doesn't mean it makes you right. If you really thought what he said wasn't worth posting, you wouldn't have posted either. :]

 

[Ben Parry]

What is sadder though is that no one from Frontier responds to such posts as these (very rarely if ever) in the fashion you just did, which would cut a lot of the console conspiracy theories and the like off at the knees. Instead, it just festers, and re-appears, and festers some more. Nor do they usually let us know when (if ever) such mistakes or unintended changes/side effects get corrected (other than sometimes in rather vague patch notes that are sometimes almost impossible to match to a specific issue or set of issues).

It's a lot harder to do when you're on staff, unfortunately. Since we're not meant to accidentally reveal or confirm new features or changes there's a tendency to second-guess yourself, try to work out whether you're really talking in general terms or whether your response is founded on actually knowing the current state of play of the feature being discussed. Whether other people will think the same as you do. It often becomes easier to just focus on your actual job or only get stuck in on abstract threads like the 32-vs-64 wars, and those people whose actual job is to talk to you guys aren't generally in the position to give a fine-grained reply in the first place, because their job doesn't involve messing with the features you're talking about.

 

[Gédéon_Lecanard]

It's not on purpose usually and it's not an attempt to hurt the higher end of the spectrum. The changes are slight, but noticeable if you run the lowest settings all the time, or if you run the highest settings all the time. These two are generally the most effected by the slight changes in the game. Trying to fix one thing causes something else to suffer. Optimizing is a really rough part of game development, as it can easily make or break a game in terms of visuals and performance. This is why I said the FDevs are really good at it. They are constantly tweaking things to improve the overall standard. But it is a constant process in this case. Changes are unavoidable. I never stated that high spec players should settle for a lower standard. My only point is that complaining about it in the middle of a long term development process like Elite is unnecessary.

You either got into the game not so long ago, or you are prone to way more indulgence than most of us. If the first point is right, it explains why you'd think the changes are only slight. The problem right now is that the current changes do not improve the game all that much in terms of performances, while utterly destroying one of the most important point that made the game great. I'm currently out there, exploring, and I actually stopped any kind of sightseeing in roid belts. Lighting is meh at best and quite flat overall (not to mention aberrant with the distance), blocks of roids are distinctly popping up in the horizon (they used to be more stealthy for that process) and dust layers are now almost non existent. This is heartbreaking for anyone who remember falling in love with the game during a trip in a belt. It used to be so beautiful.

Right now, it's not stellar at all in that department.

 

[Cryptex]

^^At above: I am by no means new to the game. While I did not purchase the game during its early betas, I did follow them closely and purchase the game immediately upon its release in 2014. And yes, I remember the details and stunning visuals of the game quite well. But I also accept the fact that certain details like the dust layers caused incredible frame drops for lower spec machines. Fdev explained these types of things openly and changed them to improve performance. That is the same reason they removed some of the heavy end things from RES in general. It caused problems for a great majority of people, even on lowered settings. While disappointed with the changes, I accept them for now as they are needed to make the game playable for the largest majority. It doesn't mean they will stay that way or will never be improved again. For this reason alone I am content with waiting for further optimization and development. It is the same reason I wait diligently for Planetary Landings and every other major update to come. I'm not making this a bigger problem then it needs to be right now. If we were dealing with this kind of stuff after one or two more years of development, when planetary landings and all the big name components are ingame, then yes, I would be more prone to agree with you.

Just because you're more creative insulting people doesn't mean it makes you right. If you really thought what he said wasn't worth posting, you wouldn't have posted either. :]

Creativity has nothing to do with my insulting people. My insults stem from the fact that he couldn't put forth a logical opposition to anything I said. If I'm wrong, show me I'm wrong through constructive words and evidence. If I then elaborate further or disprove you, then it is your responsibility to counter with something that makes sense and has truth to it. This is the basis of any conversation. When someone resorts to insults based on nothing but their emotions, it shows they have shutdown in terms of any ability to state something worth considering. Oh but don't get me wrong; if I am insulted or belittled, I will most certainly reply. No matter how little the impact the content of the insult had upon me.

your wall of text is annoying and not correct...

I consider graphics = content and graphical downgrade = bugs, I consider them as equal as the gameplay itself; so stop bullting around telling us to stop complaining about this matter

here's an obvious graphical downgrade for you

View attachment 47825

vs

View attachment 47826

Forgive me for not separating my wall of text into paragraphs for you, but the format of the text is not a basis for a valid argument against its content. What I said was not wrong in any way, unless you can tell me how so. From the looks of it, you seem to think I said the lowest end of the graphic spectrum is equivalent to the highest. No where did I say that. I said that the spectrum will shift slightly. The best graphics will still be the best, but will change visibly when compared to older versions of the best. This is the basis of game optimization. If you can see these changes, you know the game is being optimized for performance and visuals.

My posts refer to these slight changes not being important in this instance. If you refer back to my very first post on this thread, you would know I never said to not complain about it. I said do not complain too much simply because it will do little good. If that is a problem for you, then do not take that up with me. It is a simple fact that games undergo development. It is a fact that optimizing visuals and performance is part of that process. In a long term project like Elite, this will happen repeatedly, and the quality will go up and down as content is released and things are tested. Because of that very statement, it is useless to complain that graphics are getting worse. It is part of the process that they do so. But they will also get better. And so will performance. This will not occur instantly though. And it is bound to get worse immediately after a release with new content.

Complaining about it will do little to no good, but by all means, feel free to complain all you please. I'm just the kind person telling you to save your energy. But if it appeases you, expend it all you want. But I will gladly punch holes through anything and everything you say if it lacks logical reasoning. And here, I even separated my paragraphs for you this time. Hope you enjoyed the easier read.

 

[Brimstone]

I'm not a developer, and I'm not commenting on how they are producing the Xbox version because I don't know - all I can do is judge what is said by DB and what I see in my game:

I was in the neutron fields one month ago and I'm back again now - There's a huge change since my last visit....

Here's the neutron field in 1.2

Spoiler

Neutron stars as far as the eye can see!
View attachment 47645

Here's the neutron field in 1.3

Spoiler

I can only see neutron stars with 26 light years of my current position!
View attachment 47646

David has publicly said several times that the xbox will be the full PC edition, not dumbed down.

So what happens if the xbox is discovered by devs to struggle to render for example the neutron fields when displayed like the PC version (ie thousands of stars displayed)...they can't produce a dumbed down version for xbox, so they have to nerf the PC version.

It appears that they don't want to release an xbox version (however they produce it) that is in any way inferior to what PC users get.

The neutron fields in 1.2 were amazing....you really got a clear sense of the scale of the field.....thousands of stars going on for thousands of light years. Now I can only see a tiny number of stars.

Its a real shame.

Others have reported similar graphical nerfs:

Rings:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=156243

Ships
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=157780


If the change in the way the neutron field is displayed has not been done as a result of the limitations of the xbox, then why ? Unfortunately FD are keeping quiet on the subject. If its to assist with compatibility on lower spec PCs then surely they would have made this change only apply to the "low" and "medium" graphic settings in the game options....it should not be included in the "high" and "ultra" settings. People who have forked out huge sums of money for high spec PCs are really being done a disservice by FD here. I can only hope that if it is due to the limitations of Xbox, then some time after the xbox release FD do the honourable thing and un-nerf the PC.

this change might just be from the devs optimizing the galaxy map for route plotting, because I and many other people were having a lot of difficulty plotting around the galactic core.

 

[Asp Explorer]

And here, I even separated my paragraphs for you this time. Hope you enjoyed the easier read.

It really does depend on the browser used to view the forum with. Safari it works ok, and we can see line breaks. IE just mushes everything up. Been bugged that way for a long time

 

[CMDR xX_Phaethon_Xx]

It really does depend on the browser used to view the forum with. Safari it works ok, and we can see line breaks. IE just mushes everything up. Been bugged that way for a long time

Umm... Internet Explorer should only be used to download another browser, just sayin'.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Umm... Internet Explorer should only be used to download another browser, just sayin'.

Whilst I wholly agree with you in principle - in reality I need to use it as so many corporate-types still insist on things that won't work on anything other than IE

I even have a VM running IE6 as that is the only browser that will work correctly with one client's payroll entries. PAYROLL ENTRIES!!!

 

[Cryptex]

Whilst I wholly agree with you in principle - in reality I need to use it as so many corporate-types still insist on things that won't work on anything other than IE

I even have a VM running IE6 as that is the only browser that will work correctly with one client's payroll entries. PAYROLL ENTRIES!!!

I feel your pain man. I cry every time I have to do something IE related for work. Why can't the world just upgrade already. Same concept with some of the work computers and systems only running Windows XP.

 

[Triple88a]

Did I ever say I play on a lower spec machine? People like you making posts without having read the full thread or even trying to grasp the meaning of a post give forums a bad name. Where in my post did I do any whining? I would love it if you would point it out to me. I made a statement based on the OP's statement and those of others within this post. I supported that statement with logical details that atest to that statement's validity. I explained a portion of game development in the most simplified format I could to appease the majority of readers. If you consider any of that whining then obviously you have no sense of what whining really is. And you most certainly have no sense as to what a logical person would post. Game optimization is a standard part of game development. Optimizing graphics in this game will undoubtedly change quality and performance for both ends of the spectrum. You are not the only gamer playing this game in case you didn't know. The development team does not exist to appease only you, or other top spec computer gamers. The game is optimized to be playable by everyone. This process improves and lowers graphics quality over time. The process attempts to find the best settings that will generate the best performance for the widest variety of machines. Once again, settings exist to be changed by those with any kind of machine, but it is unavoidable that the overall scale of graphics will change over time. If you have a better method for video game development, feel free to share; but once again, as I have described, this is considered the most effective method by the majority of development teams. If the development bothers you so much, don't play the game. But do not sit there and expect that changes will not occur. I bought the game for the upcoming features and endgame image, as did most people. It is for this reason I will accept the fluctuations in game content, bugs, and quality during these stages. This is by no means the final copy of this game, so there is no point in complaining about graphics which will undoubtedly be altered repeatedly throughout development. That was the purpose of my earlier post. Anyone with intelligence would understand that rather than seeing it as whining. Channel your energy into other more meaningful development things, like the content and bugs. Don't waste time posting about things that are bound to change. If you still consider this whining, then feel free to check yourself out of the forums, as everyone will be posting your dreaded whiny posts and it will save yourself the trouble.

Man you should really calm down, you're making your self look like a fool. Anyways, yes your post about graphics being too demanding and that "not everybody has a high end system" comes off as whiny but that's not why i said that.. i said it using almost exact same words as your statement but i guess you didn't notice that. As far as the game being playable by everyone.. Did you know that you can change your settings in the options to suit players with lower end machines without affecting the quality for the high end settings? That is the reason why the rest of your post is irrelevant.

 

[Cryptex]

Man you should really calm down, you're making your self look like a fool. Anyways, yes your post about graphics being too demanding and that "not everybody has a high end system" comes off as whiny but that's not why i said that.. i said it using almost exact same words as your statement but i guess you didn't notice that. As far as the game being playable by everyone.. Did you know that you can change your settings in the options to suit players with lower end machines without affecting the quality for the high end settings? That is the reason why the rest of your post is irrelevant.

*sigh* I am very calm first off. Secondly it may seem whiny to you, but that is subjective. I see these threads claiming that graphics are sinking as whiny, for the very reasons I have already explained. It's not a bad thing if they sink some in order to improve things in other places, especially if those improvements help a greater majority. And if some of you think it is, so be it. If you deem it whining to take up a perspective from which one views the benefits and negatives of development for the greatest majority of players, then so be it. I will gladly whine in your eyes. Just as I'm sure that the original posters on this thread will continue to think I am whining to them about not complaining. In principle, that is only a side-point to everything I've been saying, but so be it. I personally don't find it foolish to attempt to explain why this entire thread is just a waste of time because graphic changes are inevitable, good or bad; but if you feel that way, so be it too.

I find that too many people are content with complaining about things that will change over the course of time whether they complain or not. Since whether you complain or not doesn't matter in this instance, I find it wasted energy to complain then. Once again, if you see otherwise, so be it then. Those who accept the meaning of my posts as "Changes will occur in this field of the game, so I guess he's right. Might as well go post about [insert bug here] instead then", that was the meaning behind everything I've said. Those of you who want to consider it whiny and continue to make your points that graphics are worse, go ahead. To me that's like yelling a house is on fire, while standing right outside a house that is obviously in an inferno of flames. If you wanna be that guy, so be it. I'm content with being the guy that kindly tapped you on the shoulder and pointed to the firetruck behind you. If you want to continue to ignore the firetruck and shout, feel free to.

 

[Triple88a]

I find that too many people are content with complaining about things that will change over the course of time whether they complain or not.

Thats just hte thing though, we're on a forum where we're bringing up valid questions and we're suppose to be doing that here. We didn't even know this was a bug until few hours ago. For all we knew when this thread was first made was that the devs simply wanted to cut the extra graphics. This is the proper place for feedback and discussions. If you dont like to read the feedback then thats on you.

 

[gumbie]

Every change they made since alpha made the game worse.

It's what happens when devs listen to the community and the community has a mental age of 6.

 

[Arjin]

Just call what it is, they have to dumb down the graphics for the MAC and XBone player base, there not so hard.. They just need to have all the options in place so players can choose their graphics level based off their systems.

 

[Cryptex]

Thats just hte thing though, we're on a forum where we're bringing up valid questions and we're suppose to be doing that here. We didn't even know this was a bug until few hours ago. For all we knew when this thread was first made was that the devs simply wanted to cut the extra graphics. This is the proper place for feedback and discussions. If you dont like to read the feedback then thats on you.

And I get that and find it perfectly acceptable. I honestly didn't take up too much problem with the OP's statement as his post was a legit question. My first post on here was directed at those who were simply complaining, and god forbid I used this word again in this forum.. if overuse could ban, but it did feel as though they were just whining about it. My very first post stated quite nicely not to -keyword-> complain too much about it and that the FD team was great at handling this kind of stuff. Complaining is not constructive. I explained why it happened and that it would be dealt with accordingly given time, and yet they still felt the need to complain. That's not adding to a discussion in my opinion. I agree that it's a problem, I said that long ago. I just don't agree with the repeated posts that it's a problem that needs immediate attention despite the potential improved performance it brought for other players. Cutting corners is one thing. Applying temporary changes while they test and look for further improvements is another. This Dev team is honestly too good to be cutting corners in something as basic as mainstream optimization, which is why I felt the need to post here in the first place.

 

[piugattuk]

Hummm, now that you mentioned that I've noticed some graphics problems too.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

I can't say what is going on, and I do think this could well be to do with the limitations of xbone, but while reading this thread a thought occurred to me - apologies if this is mentioned later in the thread - my thought was this:

When the game was being developed, as far as I recall almost all the screenies of things in development were posted in 4K.

How does that sit with things as they are now? I don't know the specs of xbone but I doubt it has the capacity to produce 4K graphics.

I also think that if the graphics are being altered to match xbones capability, the chances of them being reverted back after the console launch is ZERO because MSoft would have Fdev's plums in a sling before lunchtime.

It could well be that this is the new permanent level of graphics for E: D for quite some time. However you feel about it - MSoft are in charge now.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

These threads are always so saddening. While I'm no longer an official voice, hopefully you'll take my word for it that the team sits more in the vein of believing all existing quality can be somehow brought intact to every new platform (and let that bite us in the behind when the time comes) than that a visual downgrade would be at all acceptable at any point.
That's not to say that the graphics won't occasionally change, or take a dip. The cockpits darkening a little, for instance, may be down to the dozens of external lights that were accidentally floodfilling the screen with tiny amounts of extra light each. The fog in the asteroid fields used to have a lot of problems and burned absurd amounts of fillrate, the new system has different problems in different places, but doesn't suddenly cut into the framerate on high-res screens. There's always the chance when a new system comes in that it'll have edge cases with other systems, or it'll "come in hot" and not get any balancing or integration time, and it'll be a mess, but you can always believe that it wasn't meant to.
Anything else - drops in mesh detail, texture quality, etc, really don't make sense. Resources are compiled for the platform that will use them, if the team wants to drop the top level of a bunch of textures for a specific platform (for example), they can just do that. If it looks like that's happened to PC, it's probably a mistake. Maybe someone fixed a legitimate mistake in the streaming system, but accidentally made it think it had less memory to work with, for instance.
If you think it's happened, your best bet is to find concrete examples of the specific places the quality has changed (with identical-as-possible circumstances and settings) and report them as bugs.

Thanks for this. Hopefully then at some point we can expect to see at least a few of the graphic changes being improved back to the previous quality then, as it would seem some of those changes might be unintentional. It's just a shame we have no real way of knowing. I put together a list of graphical changes in another thread, containing a bunch of comparison shots:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=162195

 

[streki]

this change might just be from the devs optimizing the galaxy map for route plotting, because I and many other people were having a lot of difficulty plotting around the galactic core.

I've considered this. Last night I was playing around with the map to see how it looks now, and to evaluate if anything has been improved. Its certainly a cleaner interface although i wouldn't say that its easier to navigate (perhaps it is when inside the core). The big loss is the sense of scale that the old neutron field evoked. It was truly massive, and sort of humbling (as it should be). Is the change in display the end of the world ? No - not really. I just think its a shame and I can't help but wonder why it was done. As a stand-alone change i probably wouldn't have made an issue out of it, and just moved on, but coupled with the plethora of threads about similar nerfs, it does raise my suspicions, and the conspiracy idea is so delicious

Of all the threads that have been posted about graphic nerfs, its NeilF's ship that I find most shocking:

Spoiler

The front end of that ship looks like its being rendered on a playstation 2.
What's all that about ?