We need to increase speed and acceleration for EAGLE

EAGLE needs more speed (best thrusters normal 360m/s | boost 415m/s) and acceleration


  • Total voters
    317
  • Poll closed .
No, this game does not need a cheap inferior ''noob ship'' that is inferior in every way because it is cheap.

Yes it does. It needs a ship that someone can buy, pretty quickly after learning how to make money. It needs to be cheap with lovely cheap upgrades, so that they can work out how outfitting works and how to balance parts with a relatively small amount of money. It needs to be inexpensive to run and maintain with repairs when they damage it. And it needs to be cheap to insure for inevitable when they get themselves destroyed in it.

In performing this function the Eagle is arguably one of the most important spacecraft in the game.

What I think this game needs is a cheap fighter, that might not be capable of standing up against the large fighters, but has parts that shine.

The Viper.

A ship that tells its ''noobie'' pilot: ''Sure, this isn't the biggest, baddest fighting ship. But do you know what? This isn't some kind of standard MMORPG where your actions mean null because you are a low-level dreg that doesn't matter. This is Elite, and you are the commander of an interstellar spacecraft, and the whole galaxy is your oyster, and you can take this ship, and blaze your own trail and make a mark on the stars, and then, when you can afford it, you can switch to the big fighting ships. If you want. If you dare.'' That is Elite.

Nope. One of the great charms of Elite is that you're not the Dovakin, or The Inquisitor, or The Gray Warden, or The Chosen One. You're just another schmo in a universe full of schmos, and if you want to rise above the schmos you're going to need to outclass them yourself somehow.

[video=youtube;5QWqzRYU0gU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QWqzRYU0gU[/video]

I think your massive flaw is that you think of Credits as something that is hard to get. If earning money was hard, then, maybe, the balance you seem to suggest would be possible. Earning money is not hard.

I didn't say it was hard, I didn't even imply it was hard. But it does take time and effort. If someone wants a bigger, badder, and better ship... work for it. That's what Elite is and always has been. This isn't Call of Duty in space.
 
If credits are so bountiful, buy a Vulture. It gives all of the thrills of an Eagle, plus it has punch. The price of a ship is a concern. The Bond/Bounty earning potential went up, in part, to help the Combat focused players have a chance at getting the better ships. Each ship doesn't have to be a keeper. If you saw every ship obsoleted by the last, you may have had a point, but that isn't the case. The Eagles niche is the low cost (to purchase, outfit, and loose) combat ship that won;t break the bank if you take risks. I can't get behind any attempt at doctoring it up for any other purpose.
 
No, this game does not need a cheap inferior ''noob ship'' that is inferior in every way because it is cheap.

What I think this game needs is a cheap fighter, that might not be capable of standing up against the large fighters, but has parts that shine. A ship that tells its ''noobie'' pilot: ''Sure, this isn't the biggest, baddest fighting ship. But do you know what? This isn't some kind of standard MMORPG where your actions mean null because you are a low-level dreg that doesn't matter. This is Elite, and you are the commander of an interstellar spacecraft, and the whole galaxy is your oyster, and you can take this ship, and blaze your own trail and make a mark on the stars, and then, when you can afford it, you can switch to the big fighting ships. If you want. If you dare.'' That is Elite. Having an inferior noob ship that is just there to prolong the journey from a beginner to someone that actually can do something ''real'' is not Elite. Not for me, at least.

I think your massive flaw is that you think of Credits as something that is hard to get. If earning money was hard, then, maybe, the balance you seem to suggest would be possible. Earning money is not hard.



The gankers can use Cobras. This would be superior even with the speed-buffed Eagles, because the Cobra would be capable of achieving nearly the same speed while being a lot more durable.

WoT has pretty straight tiered progression and then matchmaking. A lot of people do speak of ED ships in ''tiers''.
However, at the same time, a lot of the ships in ED are balanced so that they at least have some niche to excel in. The Eagle: Not so much. No, being cheap and throwaway is not a niche to excel in.

But then, no one is suggesting the battlefield to be level. What some of us are suggesting is for every combat ship to have some niche or capability to excel in. I would say that is very unlike WoT's tiered matchmaking system, unless you look at the balance in a specific tier as it's own little balance system.

Well the higher rebuy cost of the Cobra may disuade gankers from using it due to the comparatively higher rebuy.

Due to the Eagle's maneouvarability, if you up it's speed, what's to stop it from sitting on the tail of a Viper, Cobra, FDL or any other ship that doesn't have rear facing turrets. They boost, it boosts, they turn, it slides in behind them. Probably also a reason why the Vulture has a low top speed. Then it'll be a case of, if you see an Eagle and aren't flying an Eagle, you might as well run, as there'll be no point. You'll be boosting and spinning and trying to get a shot in but it'll be behind you the whole time. Sure you can run, but is that really the only option people want to have against the cheapest and, what should the be the weakest, of all the combat specific ships.

If the Vulture didn't exist would this thread even have happened?
 
Yes it does. It needs a ship that someone can buy, pretty quickly after learning how to make money. It needs to be cheap with lovely cheap upgrades, so that they can work out how outfitting works and how to balance parts with a relatively small amount of money. It needs to be inexpensive to run and maintain with repairs when they damage it. And it needs to be cheap to insure for inevitable when they get themselves destroyed in it.

In performing this function the Eagle is arguably one of the most important spacecraft in the game.



The Viper.



Nope. One of the great charms of Elite is that you're not the Dovakin, or The Inquisitor, or The Gray Warden, or The Chosen One. You're just another schmo in a universe full of schmos, and if you want to rise above the schmos you're going to need to outclass them yourself somehow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QWqzRYU0gU



I didn't say it was hard, I didn't even imply it was hard. But it does take time and effort. If someone wants a bigger, badder, and better ship... work for it. That's what Elite is and always has been. This isn't Call of Duty in space.

And the Eagle fills that requirement, and will do it post-buff. No problem. It will continue to perform that function. No problem. It does not need to be inferior to fulfill this function. No problem.

For my second statement you quoted, I meant that in terms of what the game needs from the Eagle. The Viper is pretty fine.

And at the same time, you are a commander. You are free. You are not ''level 1''. You are free. I do not ask for the game to treat us as special snowflakes, don't pull that one on me.
Do you know how many persons the Elite Anaconda pilot is? One person. How many persons are the new-start Sidewinder pilot? One person. They are equals.

And after the speed buff. There will still be bigger, badder ships than the Eagle, that you will have to work for? Problem? No problem!

Do you have any more problems? If not, then I see no reason to not go ahead with the Eagle speed increase.

Well the higher rebuy cost of the Cobra may disuade gankers from using it due to the comparatively higher rebuy.

Due to the Eagle's maneouvarability, if you up it's speed, what's to stop it from sitting on the tail of a Viper, Cobra, FDL or any other ship that doesn't have rear facing turrets. They boost, it boosts, they turn, it slides in behind them. Probably also a reason why the Vulture has a low top speed. Then it'll be a case of, if you see an Eagle and aren't flying an Eagle, you might as well run, as there'll be no point. You'll be boosting and spinning and trying to get a shot in but it'll be behind you the whole time. Sure you can run, but is that really the only option people want to have against the cheapest and, what should the be the weakest, of all the combat specific ships.

If the Vulture didn't exist would this thread even have happened?

No, the higher rebuy cost of the Cobra will not matter, because if you fly a Cobra, you can actually keep yourself alive when Ferdelance players attack you. Or several Ferdelance players attack you. I always run, and survive. The Eagle pops almost immediatly. I've seen it myself so many times, especially in Lugh.

That's great, gives smaller weaker fighters a chance against lone heavy ship pilots. Of course, all those ships could escape freely, hindering the Eagle from accomplishing anything but routing them. If in an open scenario, where the Eagle is interdicting them to hinder them from accomplishing their ojectives, this is useless. In a warzone scenario, it's the larger ship's fault that they went there without wingmen. Going alone into a player-filled warzone really sucks. I've seen for myself what happens then, a lot of times.

If credits are so bountiful, buy a Vulture. It gives all of the thrills of an Eagle, plus it has punch. The price of a ship is a concern. The Bond/Bounty earning potential went up, in part, to help the Combat focused players have a chance at getting the better ships. Each ship doesn't have to be a keeper. If you saw every ship obsoleted by the last, you may have had a point, but that isn't the case. The Eagles niche is the low cost (to purchase, outfit, and loose) combat ship that won;t break the bank if you take risks. I can't get behind any attempt at doctoring it up for any other purpose.

I see every Eagle be obsoleted, unlike in some other cases where FD have balanced the ships so that each ship has their own niches, strengths and weaknesses.
Low cost isn't a niche, I would say it is entirely the opposite, even: If the Eagle didn't exist, then people with little money wouldn't be capable of getting into combat-oriented ships at all, but every combat ship would fill a useful role. As it is now, however, people with low capital get demoted to Eagle dregs and get to enjoy the fun of 8 players attacking them because they are ''the easiest kill''.
If the Eagle was a relatively weak frontline fighter, but useful in its own ways and had aspects in which it was superior, it would be a way better ship for introduction to combat. The changes suggested in the OP would, in my opinion, help accomplish that.
 
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No, the higher rebuy cost of the Cobra will not matter, because if you fly a Cobra, you can actually keep yourself alive when Ferdelance players attack you. Or several Ferdelance players attack you. I always run, and survive. The Eagle pops almost immediatly. I've seen it myself so many times, especially in Lugh.

That's great, gives smaller weaker fighters a chance against lone heavy ship pilots. Of course, all those ships could escape freely, hindering the Eagle from accomplishing anything but routing them. If in an open scenario, where the Eagle is interdicting them to hinder them from accomplishing their ojectives, this is useless. In a warzone scenario, it's the larger ship's fault that they went there without wingmen. Going alone into a player-filled warzone really sucks. I've seen for myself what happens then, a lot of times.

Cobras are a bigger target, they go pop just fine against my FDL.

As for the rest... forsooth I can see nothing but a game full of Eagles, every warzone... Eagles! When I close my eyes at night... Eagles!

Anyone in any ship that ever was or will be, if you see an Eagle.... run! Otherwise it's the slow death, the 3 beam pew of destruction. It's ok, because you can run every time you go into a combat zone that has a player Eagle. If you don't jump it and get lucky, run.... just run!!!

Mercifully (and I do feel cheap using the poll... but meh) 180 vs 105 seem to be on the same page. Phew, no mental Eagle speed buff ;-)
 
Cobras are a bigger target, they go pop just fine against my FDL.

As for the rest... forsooth I can see nothing but a game full of Eagles, every warzone... Eagles! When I close my eyes at night... Eagles!

Anyone in any ship that ever was or will be, if you see an Eagle.... run! Otherwise it's the slow death, the 3 beam pew of destruction. It's ok, because you can run every time you go into a combat zone that has a player Eagle. If you don't jump it and get lucky, run.... just run!!!

Mercifully (and I do feel cheap using the poll... but meh) 180 vs 105 seem to be on the same page. Phew, no mental Eagle speed buff ;-)

Hang on... it's still just slightly faster than a Cobra. Are you serious about your Eagle fears? It's still a fragile fighter with 3 small hardpoints.
Judging by the traffic reports, pretty much no one is using Eagles right now.
And if you get an Eagle on your tail, just stop and ask your friend to swat it, like a little fly. Do you seriously think that Eagles are going to be a threat in warzones?

I'm surprised that you have more troule dealing with Eagles than Cobras. I escaped just fine from a pack of several ships, including multiple ferdelances. Are you talking aout NPC Cobras or ''I think I can get away as long as I fly in a perfectly straight line'' player Cobras?
 
Hang on... it's still just slightly faster than a Cobra. Are you serious about your Eagle fears? It's still a fragile fighter with 3 small hardpoints.
Judging by the traffic reports, pretty much no one is using Eagles right now.
And if you get an Eagle on your tail, just stop and ask your friend to swat it, like a little fly. Do you seriously think that Eagles are going to be a threat in warzones?

I'm surprised that you have more troule dealing with Eagles than Cobras. I escaped just fine from a pack of several ships, including multiple ferdelances. Are you talking aout NPC Cobras or ''I think I can get away as long as I fly in a perfectly straight line'' player Cobras?

No one flys Sidewinders or Haulers either. The starter ships are there to be just that, starter ships.
 
Hang on... it's still just slightly faster than a Cobra. Are you serious about your Eagle fears? It's still a fragile fighter with 3 small hardpoints.

Sooo.... are we meant to be scared of the Eagle or not? You said previously:

"That's great, gives smaller weaker fighters a chance against lone heavy ship pilots. Of course, all those ships could escape freely, hindering the Eagle from accomplishing anything but routing them. If in an open scenario, where the Eagle is interdicting them to hinder them from accomplishing their ojectives, this is useless. In a warzone scenario, it's the larger ship's fault that they went there without wingmen."

So, can I not go to a combat zone solo now in case an Eagle is there? Or am I not to worry about them? Which is it?
 
And the Eagle fills that requirement, and will do it post-buff. No problem. It will continue to perform that function. No problem. It does not need to be inferior to fulfill this function. No problem.

It is a problem, the ship which performs this function neefs to be cheap. Buff the eagle and it wont be. Ship prices need to be balanced too. Imagine if the python was the same price as the cobra, and the viper was the price of the asp. This would be a game with nothing but pythons in it. The better the performance of a ship the more expensive it needs to be for the game economy to work.

You can keep on pretending this isn't important, but it isn't helping your case at all to ignore it.
 
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No.

It's a starter ship and like every stepping stone in games, as in real life, it's got to be cheap and a little bit crap.

That's the natural progression of basically everything, real life included, of our society, virtual or real.

Besides all that there won't be any change to the Eagle not only cos FD probably think it's good where it is - FD only nerfs blatanly OPness, like the pre-nerf Python rather than buff ships but they occasionally do look at the forums (even if they're mostly silent on them) and according to this very poll, people that want a speed buff are the minority. Ergo... that majority are happy where it is.
 
No one flys Sidewinders or Haulers either. The starter ships are there to be just that, starter ships.

And if noone flies a ship, that is a problem, because someone should fly a ship.
There is no reason for a starter ship to be inferior in every single aspect. There's no reason to ahve a straight progression. In fact, this would msot certainly be a bad thing.
Sidewinders and Haulers are getting their own niche! FD have told us that they will become more inconspicious and their signatures weaker in the future. Hauler will be great as a small smuggler, and the Sidewinder as a stealthy semi-military ship and courier.

Sooo.... are we meant to be scared of the Eagle or not? You said previously:

"That's great, gives smaller weaker fighters a chance against lone heavy ship pilots. Of course, all those ships could escape freely, hindering the Eagle from accomplishing anything but routing them. If in an open scenario, where the Eagle is interdicting them to hinder them from accomplishing their ojectives, this is useless. In a warzone scenario, it's the larger ship's fault that they went there without wingmen."

So, can I not go to a combat zone solo now in case an Eagle is there? Or am I not to worry about them? Which is it?

It's always going to be a fighter with 3 small hardpoints and weak hull/shields, but ideally, one would want to strike a balance, where a certain ship is capable of excelling in certain tactical situation with certain objectives and not in others.
I don't think this change would accomplish that much, because while it is very easy to say that the Eagle simply can park itself in the exhaust of the hostile ship, I find that this is much harder in practice.

It is a problem, ship prices need to be balanced too. Imagine if the python was the same price as the cobra, and the viper was the price of the asp. This would be a game with nothing but pythons in it. The better the performance of a ship the more expensive it needs to be for the game economy to work.

You can keep on pretending this isn't important, but it isn't helping your case at all to ignore it.

Haha, absolutely not. Someone else can fly that brick, I keep my Cobra. It fits my needs and interests.
If I was a combat focused pilot I would probably pick a Viper over an Asp. The Asp isn't that slow, but I don't think it is made for Combat. I would prefer the Viper.
Actually, I would say that your example is perfect at showing why you're wrong: Giving the Python the price of a Cobra wouldn't make the Cobra, or the Asp, or the Viper useless at all.
 
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Eagle + speed = awesome piloting and PVP combat
Eagle + no speed = boring throwaway good-for-nothing junk

Even with the speed you suggest, the Eagle is still fragile and weak. It will never be a frontline fighter. People will not just stop at the Eagle and not move on to larger ships, or some might, and if so, that is a good thing.
Consider this: According to the traffic reports, there's already 5 times as many Vultures as Eagles flying around. If the situation was the opposite, the current balancing might work, but this balancing doesn't work.

Or you could just....you know...upgrade to a different ship instead of trying to screw up ship progression.

The holy ''progression''... because pilot A is a noob dreg and flies a noob dreg ship, and pilot B is Elite, and he flies the ultimate combat ship.
How about this for ''progression'' when you get more money, you get more freedom in choosing specialized or high general performance ships, and when you earned that money, you hopefully learned more about how the game functions and turned into a better pilot. That, IMO, should be the extent of ''progression'' in ED.
 
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And if noone flies a ship, that is a problem, because someone should fly a ship.

Why? Once you're out of the starter ships why should there be a reason to fly it? Why does every ship need to have a purpose commensurate to every other ship? They really don't and there's no valid reason why they should.

And if that's an issue perhaps they should look at the Dropship and Orca first.
 
Why? Once you're out of the starter ships why should there be a reason to fly it? Why does every ship need to have a purpose commensurate to every other ship? They really don't and there's no valid reason why they should.

And if that's an issue perhaps they should look at the Dropship and Orca first.

Yes, there should be a reason to fly it. There always should. Even the Sidewinder. Even the Hauler.
Of course there's a valid reason for why they should. They're ships! They have purposes, they have design decisions, both game design ones by FD and ''design decisions'' by the ship manufacturers. Why would they not have a real purpose, a superior aspect, something? Why does it all need to be ''progressions'' and stepping stones? Why?

As I understood it, Dropship and Orca are supposed to work with passenger gameplay, and perform better in things related to passengers than other ships. The Orca as a civilian passenger transport, the Dropship as a military passenger transport.
 
They have purposes, they have design decisions, both game design ones by FD and ''design decisions'' by the ship manufacturers. Why would they not have a real purpose, a superior aspect, something?

As I said earlier there are going to be 30 ships in this game, maybe more. Please list 30 or more ways a ship can be special.

Anyway, the eagle has a superior aspect, it's just one you're determined to ignore. The ship is absolutely dirt cheap and completely expendable. It is the Vauxhall we all drive before we become millionaires and get jaguar xj220s.
 
There is another reason why the Eagle should remain a viable choice: it is a classic. Just like the Cobra, it would be an utter, utter shame if the Eagle would stay reduced to a mere "noob ship" in ED. It's a vessel with history, with character, many a player has an affection for this ship just as much for the Cobra.

If there really ought to be a notion of "noob ship", FD could at all times just introduce the concept of used ships - i.e. a "Used Eagle" that you can buy for cheap and won't ever perform at full capacity again (i.e. what the Eagle is now) and a new Eagle that is like this thread proposes. Then you can have your "noob fighters" that are replaced after just a day of playing, and we can keep our classic fighter viable and useful beyond cannon fodder that is cheap to rebuy.

Anyway, the eagle has a superior aspect, it's just one you're determined to ignore. The ship is absolutely dirt cheap and completely expendable. It is the Vauxhall we all drive before we become millionaires and get jaguar xj220s.

Being cheap and expendable is all nice and fine when you are in the situation of a general commanding an army, or an emperor ruling over their interstellar empire. But we are the pilots who are flying these ships, "expendable" is equivalent with "you will die all the time". And even the cheap rebuy cost doesn't help you against losing all bounty claims, combat bonds etc. upon destruction - you can't shrug off a death in a war zone by saying "well at least my rebuy cost is only 100k" when you also just lost all your combat bonds. This is not an arena shooter where you respawn after 10 seconds with no penalty, nor a Battlefield game where all you achieve and acquire is tied to your account and independent of your character being killed. When you die you lose stuff. A combat ship that is meant for dying doesn't make sense in such a gameplay context.
 
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As I said earlier there are going to be 30 ships in this game, maybe more. Please list 30 or more ways a ship can be special.

Anyway, the eagle has a superior aspect, it's just one you're determined to ignore. The ship is absolutely dirt cheap and completely expendable. It is the Vauxhall we all drive before we become millionaires and get jaguar xj220s.

For current ships: Post #210. Not set in stone, I only made a quick thought. I don't have personal experience with all those ships. I'm not sure if I dare to predict what niches future ships will fill.

I would like to claim something: Every ship in the game is dirt cheap and completely expendable.
I would like to ask something: In real life, do we all get Jaguar xj220s? Are the ones driving Vauxhalls simply noo dregs that lack life experience (no offense intended Vauxhall owners)

There is another reason why the Eagle should remain a viable choice: it is a classic. Just like the Cobra, it would be an utter, utter shame if the Eagle would stay reduced to a mere "noob ship" in ED. It's a vessel with history, with character, many a player has an affection for this ship just as much for the Cobra.

If there really ought to be a notion of "noob ship", FD could at all times just introduce the concept of used ships - i.e. a "Used Eagle" that you can buy for cheap and won't ever perform at full capacity again (i.e. what the Eagle is now) and a new Eagle that is like this thread proposes. Then you can have your "noob fighters" that are replaced after just a day of playing, and we can keep our classic fighter viable and useful beyond cannon fodder that is cheap to rebuy.

Hmm... what if we had Mk.I Eagles, and... maybe, Lakon MC15 Transporters? Could be available for a serious cheap (as in, the price of your Sidewinder trade-in) prices, and really, truly crap, but completely forgettable, the Eagle Mk.I basically using the same assets as the Eagle, but more worn, and the MC15 looking like a box from the outside and having the same cockpit assets as a Type 6. Minimal effort required by FD asset-makers, minimal impact on the game as a whole, just a stepping stone, if such a thing is necessary in order to make the Eagle we have now what it should be.
 
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