Weren't the engineers ment to bring diversity?

[Dommarraa]

It seems to me that FD did not appreciate peoples desire for grind.
I suspect they intended people to just play the game, and when they found something useful, they would go use it to get a single modification. You would end up with various mods, just depending on what you happened to find.
What they got was everyone just grinding for their desired mods, then moaning that the grind was too great so the requirements were reduced, then everyone has whatever they want. i.e. Min/Max

 

[Comrade Error]

@OP - blanket statements just weaken credibility; you can make a case that Engineers didn't provide 'enough' diversity, or too much, or too little vs what you wished. All fair positions to take as that is simply an opinion.

But saying Engineers didn't increase diversity is factually incorrect and skews your OP by essentially denying the obvious -->

Pre-Engineers, whether you liked the state of those ships or not, whatever your opinion good or bad, it is a factual statement to say those ships were pure, 100% identical clones of every other ship of that class owned by every other player in ED universe. The only distinction or diversity was what 'build' a player used, otherwise every component of that 'build', every ship class was 100% identical.

With Engineers, whether you think the modules suck, are great, not implemented well, whatever - it's just a statement of fact that ships are now differentiated not just by the component choice (e.g. build variety of that ship class), but the individual parameters of the components themselves.

It's quite true to say for some it may very well be the FOTM or 'most popular' choice of one specific derivative of that engineered/custom component - but the very fact that choice exists means ships are more diverse simply because in addition to class and build, we now have class, build, and customized components decisions.

Just because many choose the same choice does not mean diversity does not exist; it simply means within that increased selection of possibilities, people are gravitating towards a common choice, but invariably as in all human endeavors, some people don't go with the flow. Pre-Engineers, there was literally no choice at the component level; with Engineers there is.

Your issue seems more to be that you don't like people making generally the same customization selection, which is a different point than denying those additional choices exist at all.

I am talking about the mods people use (or at least what I've observed is the most used), you aren't wrong in saying that there is more choice then ever but, I am talking about what choices people generally make when it comes to these mods, what they think is best.

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My interdictor is bigger.

Ze grind to unlock grade 5 interdictor mods.

I want a 90 degree capture ark damnit.

 

[StiTch]

Your issue seems more to be that you don't like people making generally the same customization selection, which is a different point than denying those additional choices exist at all.

Well of course that's the issue, but if you implement several mid-field mods and one that completely out trumps the others, it's poor form to suggest this is player problem. For "casual" PvE players the tools you use probably don't matter that much but if you are serious about combat, FD did an excellent job of ensuring that only a couple of mods were comparatively viable.

 

[Siranui]

They did.

Players then selected the best ones and use them almost exclusively. Our choice, to a large extent.

The only way to make some of the options viable is to give others a tap with the nerf stick.

 

[Siranui]

I am talking about the mods people use (or at least what I've observed is the most used), you aren't wrong in saying that there is more choice then ever but, I am talking about what choices people generally make when it comes to these mods, what they think is best.

That's their choice, though. They community has decided what is 'best' and focuses on it. In the PvP race for optimisation a lot of 'sub optimal' choices are going to get discarded and never looked at.

As someone who plays a lot of open and PvP I suspect that you witness an even more skewed and reduced selection, where options that would make it through on a PvE ship are not deemed optimal enough for PvP.

We do have a lot of options, it's just that we have narrowed them down a lot ourselves.

However, options that are total no brainers cease to be an option, and are instead mandatory. That has happened in the case of some 'choices' [Overcharged] and they need hitting with a nerf stick. Yeah: I can stick a bunch of lvl5 OC MCs on everything too, but it is dull and I would prefer it to be nerfed a bit in order to provide me with a genuine choice of what weapon mod to go for.

 

[StiTch]

That's their choice, though. They community has decided what is 'best' and focuses on it. In the PvP race for optimisation a lot of 'sub optimal' choices are going to get discarded and never looked at.

As someone who plays a lot of open and PvP I suspect that you witness an even more skewed and reduced selection, where options that would make it through on a PvE ship are not deemed optimal enough for PvP.

We do have a lot of options, it's just that we have narrowed them down a lot ourselves.

However, options that are total no brainers cease to be an option, and are instead mandatory. That has happened in the case of some 'choices' [Overcharged] and they need hitting with a nerf stick. Yeah: I can stick a bunch of lvl5 OC MCs on everything too, but it is dull and I would prefer it to be nerfed a bit in order to provide me with a genuine choice of what weapon mod to go for.

You've just provided your own counter argument...?

That's exactly the problem. Mods like G5 OC are simply verging on being the only viable choice. Many mods go as far as being "novelty", but with G5 OC your multicannons can deal ridiculous damage, and somehow as the highest grade mod has the strongest benefits but next to no balancing negatives.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Any notion that introducing a set of new tools will introduce diversity in gaming is severely misplaced. As with 2.1, players will use it to find a more effective meta build.

Without extensive balancing, the only way RNGineers could have increased diversity is implement true sidegrading. Not necessarily that any stat gains are matched by an equal stat decrease, but that the stats you forced to lose would cripple your module as much as empower it, meaning any modifications you implement need to be specific to your build and tactic.

And of course even then people will find the most effective combo. But other loadouts would be far more viable compared to the remarkably one-sided affair we have now.

2.1 isn't getting rolled back though, so...all aboard the balance train!

There could never be sidegrades though as nobody is going to spend weeks grinding Eng mods for a slightly different effect as FD clearly wanted to make people spend weeks/months modding their ships (without realizing once out, there would be some players who did nothing but grind them which in turn meant anyone in PVP had to grind as well).

Had they been sidegrades to begin with though, people probably wouldn't have been so up in arms about the whole fiasco. With a sidegrade you wouldn't mind spending the time to get the parts as you wouldn't feel compelled. A mod that makes a difference but only a small one isn't going to be sought after right away but might be "nice to have"

A mod that makes your ship 10 times more powerful than existing ships.... that's a different story.

Of course people were going to rush to get them and then because of the massive grind it was, complained like hell to get the grind alleviated.

 

[Han_Zen]

You've just provided your own counter argument...?

That's exactly the problem. Mods like G5 OC are simply verging on being the only viable choice. Many mods go as far as being "novelty", but with G5 OC your multicannons can deal ridiculous damage, and somehow as the highest grade mod has the strongest benefits but next to no balancing negatives.

OC are scheduled for a nerf punch. Devs just didn't want to do it with 2.2. to avoid to many changes. It will happen.

 

[StiTch]

There could never be sidegrades though as nobody is going to spend weeks grinding Eng mods for a slightly different effect as FD clearly wanted to make people spend weeks/months modding their ships (without realizing once out, there would be some players who did nothing but grind them which in turn meant anyone in PVP had to grind as well).

Had they been sidegrades to begin with though, people probably wouldn't have been so up in arms about the whole fiasco. With a sidegrade you wouldn't mind spending the time to get the parts as you wouldn't feel compelled. A mod that makes a difference but only a small one isn't going to be sought after right away but might be "nice to have"

A mod that makes your ship 10 times more powerful than existing ships.... that's a different story.

Of course people were going to rush to get them and then because of the massive grind it was, complained like hell to get the grind alleviated.

Yup, kinda my point. Sidegrading is hard to achieve because again, people will still find the most effective combination of them. But the issue we currently have is a massive power increase with either minimal or no consequences, so you basically just build the best powerhouse you can. Introduce actual flaws to your ship and counter builds/alternate loadouts as a whole become much more viable.

OC are scheduled for a nerf punch. Devs just didn't want to do it with 2.2. to avoid to many changes. It will happen.

Well...

2.1 isn't getting rolled back though, so...all aboard the balance train!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The only single "must have" mod for me is the FSD boost. But I do travel around a lot.

Everything else is highly variable.

I do like to get a drive tuning done, but whether i do clean or dirty very much depends on the ship and other mods i'm planning on adding. Same for PP, do i need more power (overcharged) or less heat (efficient)?

Weapons, i have a wide variety of engineer modified weapons on my ships, different weapons, different effects.

I would say Engineers has actually added a lot of diversity for me.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Oooh, i see we have a side topic about sidegrades. Its interesting to note that recently on reddit there was a discussion about ships losing modules quickly. It brought to mind how many "upgrades" have a negative effect on integrity. I wonder how many people are finding they are losing modules quicker and its happening because they accepted loss of integrity on those modules thinking "meh, its only integrity, it doesn't matter".

 

[StiTch]

Oooh, i see we have a side topic about sidegrades. Its interesting to note that recently on reddit there was a discussion about ships losing modules quickly. It brought to mind how many "upgrades" have a negative effect on integrity. I wonder how many people are finding they are losing modules quicker and its happening because they accepted loss of integrity on those modules thinking "meh, its only integrity, it doesn't matter".

Valid point but losing integrity is always going to be much less relevant than a phenomenal power boost, especially when some of the strongest mods going around around shields in the first place (truesilver writes an excellent article on shields being in too strong a place) - anyone engineering to this level knows how easy shield/booster mods are to augment your ship with, and with an SCB or so spare it's now entirely viable to fight in PvE without worrying about shield loss pretty much ever.

The removal of AI subsystem targeting means further that this is less of an issue. I know that I've had next to no subsystem issues and would be tempted to put this down to more powerful weapons being fired at them, but may well be something to watch for if you're more casual player that lets shields go down regularly.

In any case I can't imagine it dissuading someone from a mod being the most important choice, and integrity drops aren't present on most of the mods we're actually considering as OP here.