What do you think makes a good Pack?

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

Lets be honnest here, Most of us would buy whatever frontier throws at us, me included, as everything just adds to the game and makes it better, even a Clone like the arcticwolf made a great addition, but not an optimal one.
And thats what i would like to discuss here, are there any solid qualifiers that we can use to find the Most optimal picks?

I think three Main criteria that are Quite universal are how common they are in captivity, how recognisable they are and how unique/different the animal/thing is to stuff in the game allready.

These criteria are both applicable for building themes and animals.

The arcticwolf for example scores 2/3 categories, the reindeer in 3/3 and the other 2 from the arctic pack in 2/3 again.
This does not feel very acurate, but when we boost it from yes to no to yes no and inbetween (for example we habe a bear, but the polarbear is a very unique one so it gets 1 instead of zero points, for held in captivity over 100 holding grants the secound point) the List changes to Arctic Wolf (2/1/0) 3/6, dall sheep (1/1/2) 4/6, polarbear (2/2/1) 5/6 and reindeer (2/2/2) 6/6.

And while this obviously isnt perfect, it actually represents Most of the dlc and how popular the animals were from a community perception.
No one criticzed the reindeer or polarbear, the dallsheep got a Bit of flag because of the fact that its uncommon in captivty and overall Not that well known ans the arctic wolf mostly got dismissed but begrudignly accepted afterwards.

I hope this line of thinking made sense, but i feel like while most of us have internalised some criteria for how we priorities animals, that i feel like talking about it overall maybe could help to spread appreciation for what we already have and how to actually evaluate animals in the game.
Maybe its just me longung for more whys with the wishlists and less what, but i think that it could be interesting regardless to expand our horizon of why people like some animals.

 

[avietar]

Good topic!

For me, I think what makes a good pack is whether the chosen animals are

• iconic: good standalone animals, interesting to look at, good representatives of the pack's theme
• versatile: use in multiple species habitats (for herbivores, for carnivores this isn't possible of course)
• distinct: sufficiently different from what we already have in game, I don't want to pay for animals that have a very same-y feel to them.

and whether the building styles are something I can use in a zoo. They should not be too strongly themed and theatrical, because I'm building a zoo and not a theme park.

So if I think about the contents of a pack, for example North America, I think a good pack could be this:

Moose, cougar, beaver or raccoon, sea lion + indigenous architecture with lots of wood and log pieces.
-> Wood and logs are always welcome additions and are super versatile. Enough indigenous art pieces and decorations to add thematic elements if you want, but you can still use the building pieces for many other things to build.
-> American flamingo, American alligator, American black bear, many people would like these animals. But I don't want to pay for another flamingo, another crocodile, another black bear. We already have those kinds of animals in the game and I would be very unhappy with them in a North America pack if it would come at the cost of an actual new animal like a beaver.*

*It is for this same reason that I was unhappy with the Arctic wolf, because it IS a grey wolf ("timber wolf"). An Arctic fox would have been the better choice by a thousand times, because it would add a fox to the game (distinct, iconic, new). Of course the game really fumbled with the wolf in the first place, so the inclusion of the Arctic wolf was a mess no matter how you look at it.

And example of a pretty decent pack that we've gotten so far is, in my opinion, the South America pack. The jaguar, capuchin monkey, ant eater, and llama are varied, they all add something new, versatile, and iconic. Of course I'd rather we'd gotten the wild Guanaco instead of the domesticated llama, but can't have everything I guess and I do enjoy the llama. Some pieces of the building theme were a bit much, but many pieces (like the bamboo pieces) are very useful in many building styles.

I think the Arctic DLC was the weakest, mainly being dragged down by the wolf. We paid 10,- for 3 new animals and wooden building pieces, which isn't great. That said, I do enjoy the reindeer and Dall sheep a lot.

I'm starting to ramble so I'll quit here

 

[peafowl]

I have to disagree. Personally i think what makes a good pack is unexpected species that may not be very common in captivity or only is in a certain part of the world. Dall sheep was a welcome surprise for me for example. Making people aware of animals they don’t know about. We’ve received a few species that i can’t see in zoos anywhere near me so i am grateful that we got them in the game.

 

[Doran]

For me:

• One iconic animal as face of the pack
• Atleast one animal with very unique rig and animations
• And two animals that just fit the pack

With that in mind, for example my ideal NA pack would look like this:

• Moose (iconic)
• California Sea Lion (unique)
• Puma (fit)
• American Alliagor/Peccary (fit)
• Alligator Snapping Turtle (exhibit)

I understand that some animals are very hard to make and frontier sometimes will make easier one to balance pack.

 

[Seedric]

i think what makes a good pack is with more addition for Scenery objects yet Animals.
i really want Animals that are rare and unique in each Continent. something that makes them.
Stand out in away, like we need animals the we dont expect and animals that we really want.
like the Binturong. which i think was the community's Choice for an South-east asian Pack.
so i agree with

Making people aware of animals they don’t know about.

to be honest i didnt know that dholes exist until the game showed the animal.
or like the animals in the exhibit. most of them i didnt realize how many animals arent that common to hear nor i have seen them.
so the game tought me a lot of new animals. and some became my favorite. even kinda helped me with spiders.
but i dont know if you also do the same? but i will occasionally open the Zoopedia to read. if i have nothing better to do in game

 

[jcp011c]

To me it's got to have the following, though I do list a few exceptions as noted.

One standout/star animal, with the possibility of two, or at least one star and one "co-star" (such as the Africa, SEA and Australia pack). Generally obvious and popular inclusions.

No more than one animal from each family of animals in the pack as a whole (Marsupials excluded from Australia since we had none in the game at all, and that's much of what Australia is known for)

At least one "surprise" animal - by that I mean an animal that was not such an obvious choice and maybe not as well known. I give Australia and South America passes on this since there was a lack of much representation from either continent. Although, even though they're well known I think the Anteater and Dingo still count as not being obvious choices. If anything, I would actually have to say that's the only drawback to the Africa pack. Three were obvious picks, and the Penguin wasn't too far apart from the others in that, and was well known. I actually expect this to be the case with a inevitable North American Pack as well, so really this is the area that Frontier may not hold to the most.

There's also the fact of conservation, and I understand that might be factored in, but I think that's a harder line to straddle. What level of species endangerment do you go with? I think there needs to be at least one that's not "Least concern", but we may not get that with North America. All 8 of the most likely animals I'm thinking they'll pick from are all of Least Concern.

 

[DarthQuell]

It depends on the location for me, but also I'm leaning to animal packs.
For standard packs, I honestly could care less for the theme, but if it's versatile (like the natural pieces in the Aquatic pack or the New Wolrd theme), then I'm happy with it.

I live in Texas, so for a possible North America pack I'd go with animals that are found across the continent. I also like that each pack has 1 or 2 star animals, 1 or 2 obsvure species, and then fill the rest with not popular but not hated species.
Like SEA: the stars were the clouded leopard and sun bear. The obscure was the monkey, dhole, and babirusa. The rest had kinda known animals, like the tapir and the binturong.

Here's what a NA animal pack would be for me, the ideal choices:

1. Star American alligator - seen in many NA zoos, and the iconic large reptile of the South
2. Star Puma - besides having a clothing company named after it, the puma is iconic as a powerful, American cat with a large range from thr North all the way to SA
3. Filler American black bear - before you go on saying "No, no, no, another bear?!", consider this: Frontier tries to base their animals, not just on where they're found, but also how common they are in zoos. These are common in NA zoos, so it would be a shame not to get them
4. Filler Collared peccary - a pig-like animal found in desert and arid regions. A good choice, I believe, and kinda known
5. Filler American beaver - a rodent, kinda known but not the 1st choice, and semi-aquatic
6. Obscure Gray fox - besides being my favorite animal, this would be the obscure species, I believe. A fox that climbs trees? Wow, right?
7. Obscure White nosed coati - a raccoon relative, I think these would bring some character to the game
8. Small exhibitI'm debating on the following:
   • Cottonmouth - a very dangerous, very territorial snake, seen near bodies of water
   • Copperhead - cousin to the rattlesnake and also dangerous, but shy. Beautiful coloration
   • Axolotl - a strange little amphibian from Mexican caves, endangered, obscure

 

[Chuditch]

No more than one animal from each family of animals in the pack as a whole (Marsupials excluded from Australia since we had none in the game at all, and that's much of what Australia is known for)

Marsupials aren’t a family, so including them under that would be like saying every pack can only have 1 placental mammal anyway.

 

[yoav_r]

For me the theme criteria are:

1. Not too themed - it's a zoo game
2. Versatile, Doesn't clash with existing scenery
3. Fits with the pack's region and animals


And the animal criteria are (I call it DRCS):

1. Diversity - the pack needs to be diverse within itself and in relation to the existing roster
2. Realistic - animals which are not found in zoos break immersion and take the place of better animals
3. Complete - If I can't make a realistic zoo area of the animals in the pack, then it is not "complete" for me.
4. Star - Needs a "star" animal, around which you can build an area, and an unexpected animal


Analyzing the packs we've got:

Arctic - good, fails a bit:
1. Theme - passes (3/3)
2. Animals - RCS (3/4) fails diversity because of the arctic wolf


South America - great, fails completion:
1. Theme - passes
2. Animals - DRS (3/4) - not "complete", you can't make a realistic south america area in a zoo with only the animals in this pack and base roster (a total of 5 south american species). The SA animals from the aquatic pack solve this, but this pack still doesn't feel complete. Had the Capybara or Caiman been in these pack it would pass.


Australia - average, kinda fails animals:
1. Theme - passes (3/3)
2. Animals - RS (2/4) Fails both diversity, because of the Dingo, and is not complete because you have only 4 animals for an australian area, spread across 2 biomes. Either an Emu or Wallaby would be needed for an Australian area to feel complete.


Aquatic - great, passes everything:
1. Theme - passes (3/3)
2. Animals - passes DRCS (4/4)


South east Asia - doesn't pass for me:
1. Theme - no theme
2. Animals - DC (2/4) - The proboscis monkey fails realism, and the pack is missing a "star" animal. Both the clouded leopard and Sun bear which were treated as stars are too obscure to make an area around.


Africa - doesn't pass for me:
1. Theme - fails pack connection (2/3). North african theme with only one animal from north africa.
2. Animals - DRS (3/4) complements the pre-existing african roster, but the animals in the pack don't work at all in a zone together.

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

For me the theme criteria are:

1. Not too themed - it's a zoo game
2. Versatile, Doesn't clash with existing scenery
3. Fits with the pack's region and animals


And the animal criteria are (I call it DRCS):

1. Diversity - the pack needs to be diverse within itself and in relation to the existing roster
2. Realistic - animals which are not found in zoos break immersion and take the place of better animals
3. Complete - If I can't make a realistic zoo area of the animals in the pack, then it is not "complete" for me.
4. Star - Needs a "star" animal, around which you can build an area, and an unexpected animal


Analyzing the packs we've got:

Arctic - good, fails a bit:
1. Theme - passes (3/3)
2. Animals - RCS (3/4) fails diversity because of the arctic wolf


South America - great, fails completion:
1. Theme - passes
2. Animals - DRS (3/4) - not "complete", you can't make a realistic south america area in a zoo with only the animals in this pack and base roster (a total of 5 south american species). The SA animals from the aquatic pack solve this, but this pack still doesn't feel complete. Had the Capybara or Caiman been in these pack it would pass.


Australia - average, kinda fails animals:
1. Theme - passes (3/3)
2. Animals - RS (2/4) Fails both diversity, because of the Dingo, and is not complete because you have only 4 animals for an australian area, spread across 2 biomes. Either an Emu or Wallaby would be needed for an Australian area to feel complete.


Aquatic - great, passes everything:
1. Theme - passes (3/3)
2. Animals - passes DRCS (4/4)


South east Asia - doesn't pass for me:
1. Theme - no theme
2. Animals - DC (2/4) - The proboscis monkey fails realism, and the pack is missing a "star" animal. Both the clouded leopard and Sun bear which were treated as stars are too obscure to make an area around.


Africa - doesn't pass for me:
1. Theme - fails pack connection (2/3). North african theme with only one animal from north africa.
2. Animals - DRS (3/4) complements the pre-existing afrucan roster, but the animals in the pack dom't work at all in a zone together.

Nice reasonings, but i kind of disagree with the SEA pack, as while it has no real staranimals, it doesnt need to as it supplememts the basegame selection from the area very well.
Asias problem at release was that we had allmost only star animals and the SEA pack gave us exactly the Medium to low exitement animals we needed.
Animals like the orangutan, komododragon, bengal tiger or even the indian elephant all profit greatly from their inclusion.
Also i honestly dont know what animal from the region would have been a better star animal, but feel free to educate me i love to learn.
Another thing to point out would be, that while we got no star animals, we got more animals overall.
And lastly, while proboscis monkeys right now arnt found outside of indonesia, the EAZA is planning there comeback to european zoos, with a first breeding group to Start spreading them across europe.
Besides that, theres also nothing wrong with region locked animals, as the people from the area will appreciate them, for two other examples the australian greater bilby and the iberian lynx.

 

[yoav_r]

Nice reasonings, but i kind of disagree with the SEA pack, as while it has no real staranimals, it doesnt need to as it supplememts the basegame selection from the area very well.
Asias problem at release was that we had allmost only star animals and the SEA pack gave us exactly the Medium to low exitement animals we needed.
Animals like the orangutan, komododragon, bengal tiger or even the indian elephant all profit greatly from their inclusion.
Also i honestly dont know what animal from the region would have been a better star animal, but feel free to educate me i love to learn.
Another thing to point out would be, that while we got no star animals, we got more animals overall.
And lastly, while proboscis monkeys right now arnt found outside of indonesia, the EAZA is planning there comeback to european zoos, with a zoo in france i think planning to add them around 2025 as a first breeding group to Start spreading them across europe.
Besides that, theres also nothing wrong with region locked animals, as the people from the area will appreciate them, for two other examples the australian greater bilby and the iberian lynx.

So it is very clear with the other packs that they deliberately left holes in the roster to fill in with star animals. I think the SEA pack was not one of the original planned packs, as the two would-be stars, the Komodo dragon and Orangutan were both already used (the komodo even starred in the deluxe pack).

So when they made an animal pack they went with what they had, and I don't think they had better options at that point. If we could go back to before release, I'd replace the Orangutan with the crested macaque, and the komodo with the blackbuck, and keep them both as stars.

This would also allow us to get a real orangutan, and not the orange gorilla that is currently in the game.


Regarding region-locked animals, I don't oppose them in general, but unfortunately they take a slot on the roster from other animals. The Lar gibbon, siamang, gray langur or crested macaque would all be more realistic than the proboscis.

 

[Antimony96]

Arctic pack:
The polar bear is obviously a necessary star animal but its massive space requirements (which have been discussed to death) make it somewhat inconvenient. The Dall's sheep was welcome even if it's not my favorite sheep/goat, the reindeer obviously helped with the lack of deer. The Arctic wolf feels like a waste of a slot. No exhibit animal. Building materials are alright; I like the wood panels but I'm not a fan of all the Christmas stuff.

South America pack:
Okay but feels very lacking for what it could potentially offer. All four added animals are very welcome but the capybara is a glaring omission for how ubiquitous it is in zoos worldwide. I love the red-eyed tree frog. Building materials work well for themed areas but not the best as building materials.

Australia pack:
The dingo isn't quite as egregious as the Arctic wolf but still doesn't feel necessary. The kangaroo and koala are both much-needed and I like the cassowary, but it needed at least one of an emu, wombat, or wallaby. The blue-tongued skink is one of my favorite lizards and a very common captive lizard so it was a good inclusion. I do like the props and building materials quite a bit.

Southeast Asia:
Hoo boy. I can't complain about any of the animal inclusions themselves (though I think a gibbon or douc langur would have been preferable to the proboscis monkey due to the latter's known difficulties in captivity in Europe and North America), but their implementation was subpar at best; the binturong required a major fix and the Malayan tapir, which should be one of my favorite animals, is still far too similar to the Baird's tapir. The leaf insect looks cool but breeds and dies far too quickly compared to other exhibit animals, making it obnoxious. No building theme at all.

Aquatic pack:
Easily the best pack so far in my view. Four great habitat inclusions (even if I would have preferred the American alligator to the caiman, and a smaller/more zoo-friendly penguin than the king, though that was fixed with Africa--the grey seal and otter are fantastic, though), a great exhibit animal, and great building materials, especially the metal fence and the artificial aquatic rocks, the latter of which I use everywhere. Five stars.

Africa pack:
Not bad even if I would have really wanted a crested porcupine or secretarybird. An African rhino was one of the last necessary large animals, the meerkat and fennec fox are zoo staples, and the African penguin fills the niche of a smaller penguin. The dung beetle is a mediocre pick, especially for how large the exhibits are compared to the actual space they require. Theming is alright, really love the vegetation.

So from best to worst, I would say:
Aquatic > Africa > Australia > South America > Arctic > Southeast Asia

 

[NZFanatic]

while proboscis monkeys right now arnt found outside of indonesia

They are famously found in Singapore Zoo, which is outside of Indonesia, and also Zoorasia in Japan.

 

[NZFanatic]

douc langur would have been preferable to the proboscis monkey due to the latter's known difficulties in captivity

Just FYI, douc langurs face the same difficulties to a certain extent, they've just been more successful overall.

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

They are famously found in Singapore Zoo, which is outside of Indonesia, and also Zoorasia in Japan.

Welp and i thought singapore was considerd a part of indonesia, but right i forget the Japanese one.
Its actually quite important, because with their holding being a success, thats why they are trying to spread them over the Rest of the world.

 

[NZFanatic]

Welp and i thought singapore was considerd a part of indonesia

Indonesia and Singapore are two separate countries.

 

[yoav_r]

Indonesia and Singapore are two separate countries.

They are in the same eco-region, which is relevant when discussing holding proboscis monkeys outsude its ecoregion.

 

[NZFanatic]

They are in the same eco-region, which is relevant when discussing holding proboscis monkeys outsude its ecoregion.

Indonesia isn't an eco-region, though, it's a country. The eco-region is Southeast Asia. In any event there's still Zoorasia in Japan, so it's a moot point.

 

[yoav_r]

Nice reasonings, but i kind of disagree with the SEA pack, as while it has no real staranimals, it doesnt need to as it supplememts the basegame selection from the area very well.
Asias problem at release was that we had allmost only star animals and the SEA pack gave us exactly the Medium to low exitement animals we needed.
Animals like the orangutan, komododragon, bengal tiger or even the indian elephant all profit greatly from their inclusion.
Also i honestly dont know what animal from the region would have been a better star animal, but feel free to educate me i love to learn.
Another thing to point out would be, that while we got no star animals, we got more animals overall.
And lastly, while proboscis monkeys right now arnt found outside of indonesia, the EAZA is planning there comeback to european zoos, with a first breeding group to Start spreading them across europe.
Besides that, theres also nothing wrong with region locked animals, as the people from the area will appreciate them, for two other examples the australian greater bilby and the iberian lynx.

BTW , you've got a link to EAZA efforts to bring Proboscis monkeys back? I couldn't find a link and I want to read about it.

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

Uh i could search for it, i found a document while researching the de brazas monkey About monkey holdings in the EAZA and there was a part about the probuscis monkey and a possible reintroduction till 2030.
If they are actually gonna Do it idk, but the paper was from 2018 i think, so still rather recent