What has happened to chivalry?

[Kicks]

I love talk of chivalry. Medieval Knights were Ritchie boys, clad in the ironman suits of the time and doing whatever the hell they wanted/could get away with. Codes of conduct were for contests, not war.

Actually in medieval warfare, you didn't want the rich knights on the other side dead. The Men-at-arms hacking each other to bits? Go for it. But that knight on the other side meant *wealth*. I'd much rather capture him alive and take him back to my estate, feed him well, talk shop with him - until his relatives could cough up the cash. I'd happily give him an armed escort back to his own estate.

He's worthless to me, dead.

 

[Ozram]

That's fair enough.

Although given that, I think someone could also argue that "what happened to chivalry" is that we took it so far that groups that share a lot of culture between them (at least in the developed world) now hardly ever even fight, do you don't even have the chance to see such "combat chivalry" in action. Hmm... Or you could argue that the lengths to which modern militaries go to try to avoid civilian casualties and render aid to civilian populations is a form of chivalry. I think I'm really off topic now...

Yeah, like when my lovely president feigns ignorance after bombing a Hospital or how everyone killed by drone strike is labeled "enemy combatant". We are as cruel as ever and kill more in our skirmishes than back in the day of swords and muskets. We also have more slavery than at any point in human history. I don't mean to derail the thread. It's just a reality check.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually in medieval warfare, you didn't want the rich knights on the other side dead. The Men-at-arms hacking each other to bits? Go for it. But that knight on the other side meant *wealth*. I'd much rather capture him alive and take him back to my estate, feed him well, talk shop with him - until his relatives could cough up the cash. I'd happily give him an armed escort back to his own estate.

He's worthless to me, dead.

Indeed, but those same Knights got to hack at the general infantry (read fodder) with gleeful abandon.

 

[Kewpa Eurus]

Funny guy, I'm not worth the effort for you real PvPers because I'm not in a defenseless trading vessel? Really? So..that scares you enough to jump one with multiple wings? While my Clipper is something you ignore because it can't possibly be worth your time, even though it carries a hell of a lot more cargo than a T6? Yeah, no, you aren't making much sense here, guess you got too scared at the thought of maybe having an armed target to deal with and can't think straight?

How are you carrying more cargo than a T-6 if you are a combat Clipper? It is you that's not making sense. You still think a Combat Clipper is something to be scared of? No, most likely you were not interdicted because no one was fielding a Clipper to be able to chase. You assume that you were not interdicted because you "Combat Clipper" that holds more cargo than a T-6 is scary? Me, scared? I'm not hiding behind the guise of being outside the bubble. I'm waiting in my Viper at Kushpoos for you.

I didn't really read the rest of your wall of text. Anyways, the real PvP community is really small and you are an unknown. Chances are that with all of your talk about being a real PvPer stems from ALD RES farming. A "Real PvPer" has a "Combat Clipper" with more cargo than a T-6? WUT? Again, I'll be in Kushpoos. Your 1v1 will be honored, unless you think your Clipper is going to scare everyone in the CG away...

NVM, I read the rest of your post and spat my drink out in laughter when you went on to mention your real life PvP experiences.....HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

Also, no one in the PvP community thinks the PvP in this game is solid. I'm sure your experience in "Real PvP" games is long and distinguished, but with all that PvP knowledge your statements seem to come from someone who hasn't been around the PvP community, nor have any experience more than ganking smaller ships with their mighty Combat Clipper.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Yeah, like when my lovely president feigns ignorance after bombing a Hospital or how everyone killed by drone strike is labeled "enemy combatant". We are as cruel as ever and kill more in our skirmishes than back in the day of swords and muskets. We also have more slavery than at any point in human history. I don't mean to derail the thread. It's just a reality check.

We're not perfect by any means, but even at our worst like that, compare it to, say, firebombing Tokyo... We've come a long way.

Edit: I'll also note that your point out killing more in our skirmishes is factually incorrect. Wars are more bloodless now than they have ever been. They're not clean by any means, but they are far better than they used to be. We do also have more slavery, but we also have more people too. I think percentages are important on that one.

 

[Ozram]

We're not perfect by any means, but even at our worst like that, compare it to, say, firebombing Tokyo... We've come a long way.

Have we? I think mutually assured destruction keeps most of the developed nations from warring directly with each other, but when it comes to dealing with others who are not in a position to pose a military threat, we are endlessly vicious. I think we aren't worst or better (same species) but with current tech we are deadlier.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Have we? I think mutually assured destruction keeps most of the developed nations from warring directly with each other, but when it comes to dealing with others who are not in a position to pose a military threat, we are endlessly vicious. I think we aren't worst or better (same species) but with current tech we are deadlier.

We're pretty vicious, but we don't do anything today to compare to what we did even as recently as WWII.

The US Strategic Bombing Survey later estimated that nearly 88,000 people died in this one raid, 41,000 were injured, and over a million residents lost their homes. The Tokyo Fire Department estimated a higher toll: 97,000 killed and 125,000 wounded. The Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department established a figure of 83,793 dead and 40,918 wounded and 286,358 buildings and homes destroyed.^{[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo#cite_note-Selden-20"][20][/URL]} Historian Richard Rhodes put deaths at over 100,000, injuries at a million and homeless residents at a million.^{[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo#cite_note-21"][21][/URL]} These casualty and damage figures could be low; Mark Selden wrote in Japan Focus:

The figure of roughly 100,000 deaths, provided by Japanese and American authorities, both of whom may have had reasons of their own for minimizing the death toll, seems to be arguably low in light of population density, wind conditions, and survivors' accounts. With an average of 103,000 inhabitants per square mile (396 people per hectare) and peak levels as high as 135,000 per square mile (521 people per hectare), the highest density of any industrial city in the world, and with firefighting measures ludicrously inadequate to the task, 15.8 square miles (41 km²) of Tokyo were destroyed on a night when fierce winds whipped the flames and walls of fire blocked tens of thousands fleeing for their lives. An estimated 1.5 million people lived in the burned out areas.^{[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo#cite_note-Selden-20"][20][/URL]}
​

In his 1968 book, reprinted in 1990, historian Gabriel Kolko cited a figure of 125,000 deaths.^{[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo#cite_note-22"][22][/URL]} Elise K. Tipton, professor of Japan studies, arrived at a rough range of 75,000 to 200,000 deaths.^{[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo#cite_note-23"][23][/URL]} Donald L. Miller, citing Knox Burger, stated that there were "at least 100,000" Japanese deaths and "about one million" injured.^{[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMiller2001456-24"][24][/URL]}

We've done nothing in current or recent wars that comes close to that, or what we did to other Japanese and German cities.

 

[Ozram]

We're pretty vicious, but we don't do anything today to compare to what we did even as recently as WWII.



We've done nothing in current or recent wars that comes close to that, or what we did to other Japanese and German cities.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/15/iraq-death-toll_n_4102855.html?ir=Australia
This is just one bit of recent history. There are other current examples of atrocities. Remember also that while Assad is said to have used (in the fog of war it may have been one of the disparate warring factions) chemical weapons supplied to them by an English company. Nobody's hands are clean and the numbers of people killed and displaced are "large". Let's not forget the atrocities in Africa as well or the ethnic cleansing in Serbia. I'm enjoying our conversation regardless. I don't often stop and think about the level of violence we are a party to in our current history.

 

[Gortron]

Have we? I think mutually assured destruction keeps most of the developed nations from warring directly with each other, but when it comes to dealing with others who are not in a position to pose a military threat, we are endlessly vicious. I think we aren't worst or better (same species) but with current tech we are deadlier.

M.A.D is the very thing that has stopped the permanent UN council countries from battering each other to death right after WW2. Some people see nuclear weapons as the biggest threat to humanity that has ever existed. That would be true if deterrence theory wasn't so obviously correct . We are probably undergoing the longest period of advanced countries not trying to kill each other in history.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/15/iraq-death-toll_n_4102855.html?ir=Australia
This is just one bit of recent history. There are other current examples of atrocities. Remember also that while Assad is said to have used (in the fog of war it may have been one of the disparate warring factions) chemical weapons supplied to them by an English company. Nobody's hands are clean and the numbers of people killed and displaced are "large". Let's not forget the atrocities in Africa as well or the ethnic cleansing in Serbia. I'm enjoying our conversation regardless. I don't often stop and think about the level of violence we are a party to in our current history.

I agree, I'm enjoying the conversation.

I think your link proves my point though. 500,000 deaths is a terrible thing, but that's over the course of an (at that point) 10 year war. The event I cited was a single bombing raid. That's a monumental difference. We have atrocities, of course. I think we always will. But the scale of them is ever shrinking. And the attitude of the public towards them is getting more and more negative.

In my teens, I went with a group with Doctors Without Borders to help out as some of the smaller and more ignored Kosovar refugee camps in Macedonia. I'm not going to claim that that experience left me with a profound or deep understanding of modern war or brutality or anything, but it has ensured I'll never forget what happened in former Yugoslavia.

Even considering those events however, and the atrocities in Africa and elsewhere, we're still living in an unprecedented age of peace: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...-war-and-murder-are-decline-180950237/?no-ist

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

A better example of wartime chivalry might be this story:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigler_incident

I liked this example - quite heart warming and nice to learn the pilots in question much later on became friends

This kind of thing can (and does) happen in ED - You don't have to murder everyone you meet, and sometimes the people you meet may fly alongside you another time.

+1 Rep.

 

[Chummy62]

Based on what several people here have posted, it would seem much more efficient to just Nuke ISIS in Syria rather than use drones for precision strikes that kill their leadership. This is just a game. People are always looking for an advantage to exploit, be it true skill and ability (natural or learned), shear numbers (4 v 1) or outright cheating. It is not so much the win as it is the collateral damage. Innocent people die or an innocent player looses hours worth of earning credits because it is more efficient to pirate their work. I'm playing against the environment because I choose to limit my collateral damage. In a word; Karma.

 

[Ozram]

I agree, I'm enjoying the conversation.

I think your link proves my point though. 500,000 deaths is a terrible thing, but that's over the course of an (at that point) 10 year war. The event I cited was a single bombing raid. That's a monumental difference. We have atrocities, of course. I think we always will. But the scale of them is ever shrinking. And the attitude of the public towards them is getting more and more negative.

In my teens, I went with a group with Doctors Without Borders to help out as some of the smaller and more ignored Kosovar refugee camps in Macedonia. I'm not going to claim that that experience left me with a profound or deep understanding of modern war or brutality or anything, but it has ensured I'll never forget what happened in former Yugoslavia.

Even considering those events however, and the atrocities in Africa and elsewhere, we're still living in an unprecedented age of peace: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...-war-and-murder-are-decline-180950237/?no-ist

Good points. I'd rep you again, but apparently I have to share the love.

 

[ries]

good, good, more people being pushed out of open. Keep going guys, not long now.

 

[Katejina]

I liked this example - quite heart warming and nice to learn the pilots in question much later on became friends

This kind of thing can (and does) happen in ED - You don't have to murder everyone you meet, and sometimes the people you meet may fly alongside you another time.

+1 Rep.

I had a long discussion with my s/o on this subject. I am of the firm believe that technological advancement will continue to phase out this bit of humanity. We've already got self-driving vehicles. It is not far-fetched to believe that in 3300, we will have fully automated ships. When someone is out there flying, with the intent to cause hard (either for war or otherwise), I believe there will be fewer and fewer instances where someone stops to consider who, if anyone, is sitting in that cockpit.

It's sad, because ideals and patriotism aside, we're all human. We all share common ground, even if it isn't that much. The last thing I want is to start a debate about religion but I feel that if humanity can do without it and work on the common belief of "life is precious" than we could be so much more prosperous.

Then again, a lot of inventions were only possible thanks to wartime profiteering and military contracts...

 

[thesnowdog]

As soon as I see more than 2 ships I immediately prepare for a hyperspace jump. If they all start firing I start that countdown going. Better than going into super cruise because hyperspace countdowns can't be interrupted as far as I know.

 

[Kristov]

How are you carrying more cargo than a T-6 if you are a combat Clipper? It is you that's not making sense. You still think a Combat Clipper is something to be scared of? No, most likely you were not interdicted because no one was fielding a Clipper to be able to chase. You assume that you were not interdicted because you "Combat Clipper" that holds more cargo than a T-6 is scary? Me, scared? I'm not hiding behind the guise of being outside the bubble. I'm waiting in my Viper at Kushpoos for you.

I didn't really read the rest of your wall of text. Anyways, the real PvP community is really small and you are an unknown. Chances are that with all of your talk about being a real PvPer stems from ALD RES farming. A "Real PvPer" has a "Combat Clipper" with more cargo than a T-6? WUT? Again, I'll be in Kushpoos. Your 1v1 will be honored, unless you think your Clipper is going to scare everyone in the CG away...

NVM, I read the rest of your post and spat my drink out in laughter when you went on to mention your real life PvP experiences.....HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

Also, no one in the PvP community thinks the PvP in this game is solid. I'm sure your experience in "Real PvP" games is long and distinguished, but with all that PvP knowledge your statements seem to come from someone who hasn't been around the PvP community, nor have any experience more than ganking smaller ships with their mighty Combat Clipper.

I don't use SCBs, stated that already, so that leaves me room for cargo. A single cargo scan would show that it's well worth the time to interdict me usually, and I've been interdicted by 2 different players in my Clipper. First guy, some newb in a Sidey, interdicted me and just started firing away. I tried to talk to him, offered to drop some cargo for him, just because, but he just wouldn't stop firing, so I low waked out. He interdicted me again..and again, and I finally just ran him over. Second guy, Python driver, interdicted me and immediately started firing, big surprise right? He WAS at least trying to be a pirate, he targeted my cargo hatch, which made me laugh. He didn't bother to scan my cargo or he'd have seen I was carrying some biowaste and that was it, doing a rank mission. He got my hatch, 1 ton of hot crap dropped out, he actually scooped it up and high waked out while I was too busy laughing to finish him off. The other players who've been my victims, I was in my Adder, T6 and my Asp, nothing special in any case, and I didn't gank anyone, I was the one who got interdicted. Nice try however, the insults don't bother me, I'm used to worse from my kids and grandkids, my grandson is rather adroit at quick quips when we play online together, so proud of him!

Again, I'm 25k LY away from the bubble right now, I'll be back next month or maybe the month after that, depends on how distracted I get on my way back, and I won't be looking for any combat, just getting my planetary landing suite, an SRV or two, and I'm off again to see what's out there. Might see me in CQC but that's about it.

As for the PvP community in Elite...which one would that be and why should I care exactly when the PvP is such a joke?

 

[Gortron]

Based on what several people here have posted, it would seem much more efficient to just Nuke ISIS in Syria rather than use drones for precision strikes that kill their leadership. This is just a game. People are always looking for an advantage to exploit, be it true skill and ability (natural or learned), shear numbers (4 v 1) or outright cheating. It is not so much the win as it is the collateral damage. Innocent people die or an innocent player looses hours worth of earning credits because it is more efficient to pirate their work. I'm playing against the environment because I choose to limit my collateral damage. In a word; Karma.

I think the trouble is ISIS are just a bunch of psychotic murdering tossers. They don't have any redeeming features or anything that can be empathised with. It almost seems that ISIS promote hate towards them from rational people.

I don't need persuading that they are terrible. The EU is slowly being torn to bits while the UK is blamed for all the problems.

 

[Ozram]

I think the trouble is ISIS are just a bunch of psychotic murdering tossers. They don't have any redeeming features or anything that can be empathised with. It almost seems that ISIS promote hate towards them from rational people.

I don't need persuading that they are terrible. The EU is slowly being torn to bits while the UK is blamed for all the problems.

Yes, I see images on the news of Isil members in large gatherings and convoys, with heavy caliber weapons and am left wondering why we continue allowing them to exist. Fighting a guerrilla war is hard. Separating friend from foe in that environment can often be an impossible task. Isil, on the other hand, seem to move about in the more traditional bands. Such bands are easily disposed of by our modern military so the fact they are allowed to continue means that for some reason or other we (our governments) want them to do so.
My tinfoil hat theory is that they are allowed to thrive in order to keep us distracted while the real danger to our modern democracy looms unopposed. The TPP will devastate the ability of any member country to self legislate yet we worry about some turban wearing Neanderthal and his ak47. It's like taking a self defence course thinking it will save your life all the while eating processed foods in excess which will undoubtedly cut short your life. Odd days, with mass surveillance and faraway bogeymen. 1984 comes to mind.

 

[Gortron]

Yes, I see images on the news of Isil members in large gatherings and convoys, with heavy caliber weapons and am left wondering why we continue allowing them to exist. Fighting a guerrilla war is hard. Separating friend from foe in that environment can often be an impossible task. Isil, on the other hand, seem to move about in the more traditional bands. Such bands are easily disposed of by our modern military so the fact they are allowed to continue means that for some reason or other we (our governments) want them to do so.
My tinfoil hat theory is that they are allowed to thrive in order to keep us distracted while the real danger to our modern democracy looms unopposed. The TPP will devastate the ability of any member country to self legislate yet we worry about some turban wearing Neanderthal and his ak47. It's like taking a self defence course thinking it will save your life all the while eating processed foods in excess which will undoubtedly cut short your life. Odd days, with mass surveillance and faraway bogeymen. 1984 comes to mind.

Are you on about the US EU trade deal? All the English speaking counties share surveillance "The five eyes". France likes to think is runs the EU and Germany likes to pretend it doesn't. I wouldn't worry about it all too much

 

[Gortron]

Are you on about the US EU trade deal? All the English speaking counties share surveillance "The five eyes". France likes to think is runs the EU and Germany likes to pretend it doesn't. I wouldn't worry about it all too much

oh . I've just been told what has happened in France.