What if... [Separate PvP/PvE Theory]

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Soooo......

People complain that FD can't manage to get their ducks in a row with just one ED, and now the idea is to double down and make two.....

Isn't that sort of like going to the bottom of the hill to remove a section of track, right before Amtrak shows up doing 90 miles an hour? :O

Yeah, it'd be a lot of work. Lol

But, that said, a PvE only mode with its own ruleset is much easier to maintain because balance doesn't have to be adjusted constantly.

Think Skyrim, you can eventually craft a bow that can one shot a Troll in to orbit. Lol
In PvE, that's perfectly fine, if a bit unrealistic, but totally hilarious.
In PvP that would be game breaking.

Basically, the underlying reasons for this idea is not to avoid PvP, but to allow more fun weaponry, and modules.
PvE piracy would be brilliant, you could jam communications, have FSDi missiles, a tether to stop ships, etc.
Plus non piracy weapons, like torpedoes having more ammo, class 4 rails, missiles, etc etc
Alot of these things would just become instant trolling modules in a PvP game though.

Basically, I blame trolls.
If it wasn't for them, we could have a lot more fun stuff.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[babelfisch]

There are three sources of shields in the game:
- main shield generator
- shield boosters
- shield cell banks

The first costs one internal which - unless you were planning to take advantage of the complete uselessness of NPCs by evading every interdiction, low-waking from the ones you can't evade, and high-waking from the ones which masslock you - should be one of the larger ones even on a trade ship (I use one of the sixes on my trade/exploration Python for the shields)

Using the second for shield boosters is very common on trade ships already, doesn't compromise trade ability - and trade ships can carry at least as many of them.

The third, I agree, is really for combat ships only (though if FDev make NPCs more dangerous I'll happily swap another 6 on my Python for a bank)

Both traders and PvPers can apply the same engineering to their ships. FDev have made all the shield engineers ones who can be accessed almost entirely without any combat at all (absolute pacifist characters will be limited to grade 3 shield boosters):
Farseer - direct non-combat unlock, SB 1 (also has G1 powerplant, which is enough to get 15-20% extra power from overcharged and a good secondary, and G3 drives for running away better)
Martuuk - direct non-combat unlock, SG 3
Chung - non-combat unlock, after Dweller who is also non-combat - SG5, SB3
Vatermann - non-combat unlock, after Jean who is also non-combat (and provides extra armour), after McQuinn who does require a small amount of combat - SG3, SB5

I'm assuming for the following calculations the "extreme" settings on Coriolis. Shield boosters and generators both have nice secondaries so getting blueprints to go beyond that is fairly easy but doesn't change the general pattern.

That's certainly enough to make a trade ship which can run away from a PvP fit ship. A Python with a 6A shield (thermal 4 or 5), and 4 shield boosters (2xresist 5, 2xheavy 5) will have ~1000 MJ base shield, or with 4 pips to systems and counting resistances, ~4500 MJ of effective shield. Sure, the same Python fit for PvP might have a prismatic, a pair of SCBs, and some extra secondary effects (but one of the boosters swapped for a heat sink) giving it over 20000 MJ of effective shield [1] ... but 4500 is certainly still enough to run away effectively.

(A shieldtank FDL fitted for PvP would only have around 7500 MJ of effective shields, is probably more common to meet than the Python, and is likely to be faster - but the trade Python can low-wake from that...)

[1] Until someone uses feedback cascade on it, anyway.

Sorry, you didn't understand what I am talking about. I am not talking about running away. Everyone can run away in this game. Running away doesn't require any skill or effort apart from surviving 30 seconds. That's not engaging gameplay. That's not fun for anyone involved. That's not my idea of PvP.

 

[lenna]

I think I'm getting déjà vu here.

It is essentially the same old balancing discussion regardless of how you cut it.

 

[lenna]

Sorry, you didn't understand what I am talking about. I am not talking about running away. Everyone can run away in this game. Running away doesn't require any skill or effort apart from surviving 30 seconds. That's not engaging gameplay. That's not fun for anyone involved. That's not my idea of PvP.

You try running when mass-locked and slower than the attacking agents... that can apply in at least some cases.

The OP's desire for more huge weapons is not the first time that such things have been raised. Personally, I would like to see Large and Huge missile/torpedo launchers. Large could be double the capacity of Medium and Huge could double the rate of fire (or double the capacity again perhaps).

 

[Ca$hback]

Make it so Xbox1, PS4 and PC players can see each other and interact in the same BGS. Copy the BGS and replace solo with a PvE version of open. Give everyone an extra commander. Lock commanders to either open or PvE.
You'll have one open version and one PvE version. If group play isn't resource intensive then keep it. Want traditional solo? Set your "do not disturb" flag within the PvE mode.
Everyone gets to keep their first discoveries.
Solo players avoiding confrontation will be able to socialize.
Open will only be affected by PvP players.
The community is only split into 2 (or 3) rather than at least 9.
No invincibility. Better verisimilitude. Both sides get what they want (except for the respective schadenfreude)

 

[duckofdeath]

It really doesn't have to be this complicated.
Just have two options in the main menu. PvP or PvE. Just like everything else is already instanced, the extreme examples being xbone and ps4 being separate instances to the same galaxy, a PvE instance is a really simple addon. Set clear rules on PvE in its instance. Be it that you can't damage CMDR's or that you're warned, kicked and banned if you don't comply.
Weapons don't need adjustments. Torbedos can indeed be used in PvE, for assassinations. There would be no reason to give us "infinite" ammo on them. They're not that kind of weapon.

 

[Lestenio]

Make it so Xbox1, PS4 and PC players can see each other and interact in the same BGS. Copy the BGS and replace solo with a PvE version of open.

Different platforms can’t see each other. You’d have to take that up with Microsoft and Sony
Having 2 independant BGSs running would require twice the servers and a hell of a lot of effort with story writing in the future. There will be instances were CGs are successful in one mode and are a failure in another. It would be come a full time nightmare for FD trying to realease and test new content.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

It is essentially the same old balancing discussion regardless of how you cut it.

Lol

It's actually not. Although everyone seems to have gone in to autopilot arguement mode from reading the thread title.

It's actually about not balancing.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Ca$hback]

Different platforms can’t see each other. You’d have to take that up with Microsoft and Sony
Having 2 independant BGSs running would require twice the servers and a hell of a lot of effort with story writing in the future. There will be instances were CGs are successful in one mode and are a failure in another. It would be come a full time nightmare for FD trying to realease and test new content.

I'm not saying it's easy, just that all other changes are ineffective until the root of the problem is addressed.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Sorry, you didn't understand what I am talking about. I am not talking about running away. Everyone can run away in this game. Running away doesn't require any skill or effort apart from surviving 30 seconds. That's not engaging gameplay. That's not fun for anyone involved. That's not my idea of PvP.

Well, okay - but how could it be otherwise? You can win a PvP fight in a (well-built) trade ship versus a combat ship - you just need your opponent to be a worse pilot - but all else equal it doesn't really matter if the combat ship has 50% more power or 500% more because either is enough to win the fight with.

Restricting ship choice to multiroles only, with limited options for combat internals, would close that gap plenty - but in that case, it was 1.3 (Vulture, FDL, SCB, HRP, Prismatics) which really broke things.

 

[babelfisch]

You try running when mass-locked and slower than the attacking agents... that can apply in at least some cases.

The OP's desire for more huge weapons is not the first time that such things have been raised. Personally, I would like to see Large and Huge missile/torpedo launchers. Large could be double the capacity of Medium and Huge could double the rate of fire (or double the capacity again perhaps).

Mass-lock doesn't apply when high-waking.

 

[babelfisch]

Well, okay - but how could it be otherwise? You can win a PvP fight in a (well-built) trade ship versus a combat ship - you just need your opponent to be a worse pilot - but all else equal it doesn't really matter if the combat ship has 50% more power or 500% more because either is enough to win the fight with.

Restricting ship choice to multiroles only, with limited options for combat internals, would close that gap plenty - but in that case, it was 1.3 (Vulture, FDL, SCB, HRP, Prismatics) which really broke things.

Yes, I said in my first post in this thread that SBs, SCBs, HRPs, MRPs and the Engineers made playing PvP with (non combat) PvE focused players impossible in my opinion.

If two equally skilled players meet and Player A is flying a Vulture and Player B is flying a T6, Player A should definitely have an advantage, but it shouldn't be easy. It's already easy if you use the base stats, way better maneuverability, shields, hull and firepower. It gets stupid when you add combat focused modules. And it becomes impossible when you add the Engineers.

So the Trader could just fit combat modules and stop being a trader. But he would still be in a weaker ship.

He could also use the Engineers, (which would still result in being in a weaker ship...) but why? A PvP player wants to be competitive and needs to play in Open, he is forced to use the Engineers. A Trader would just switch to Solo or PG when going to CGs, Capital systems, etc.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

Frontier never should have allowed players in Group/Solo to use their same CMDR in Open. It created a tremendous imbalance due to the EZ-mode AI we had for months upon months after release.

 

[Lestenio]

Frontier never should have allowed players in Group/Solo to use their same CMDR in Open. It created a tremendous imbalance due to the EZ-mode AI we had for months upon months after release.

Curious to know what the easy mode is. I play solo. No wing assistance or easy multicrew credits earned here

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Curious to know what the easy mode is. I play solo. No wing assistance or easy multicrew credits earned here

Up until 2.1 (I believe) the AI was basically . Lol
Hence easy mode AI.
It's improving slowly, but still quite "meh".

I took on 2 Deadly Corvettes in my PvE mission Python the other day. Not sure why my Assassination Mission spawned two of my target, but it was about the most fun I'd had in PvE combat in a while.

But I still won, wasn't even close to death at any point.

I think my thread is wandering off topic now though. Lol

 

[jasonbarron]

Yes, I said in my first post in this thread that SBs, SCBs, HRPs, MRPs and the Engineers made playing PvP with (non combat) PvE focused players impossible in my opinion.

If two equally skilled players meet and Player A is flying a Vulture and Player B is flying a T6, Player A should definitely have an advantage, but it shouldn't be easy. It's already easy if you use the base stats, way better maneuverability, shields, hull and firepower. It gets stupid when you add combat focused modules. And it becomes impossible when you add the Engineers.

So the Trader could just fit combat modules and stop being a trader. But he would still be in a weaker ship.

He could also use the Engineers, (which would still result in being in a weaker ship...) but why? A PvP player wants to be competitive and needs to play in Open, he is forced to use the Engineers. A Trader would just switch to Solo or PG when going to CGs, Capital systems, etc.

A trade vessel that can survive to run away from a ganker can easily be built by almost anybody, which seems like sufficient balance to me. Why should a T6 be able to stick around to slug it out with a FAS or similar combat oriented ship?

 

[Lestenio]

Up until 2.1 (I believe) the AI was basically . Lol
Hence easy mode AI.
It's improving slowly, but still quite "meh".

Sure, but we all face the same NPCs regardess of pvp or pve. So choice of mode is ultimately irrevant.
I don’t bother with my Corvette these days, everytime i take it out for a spin i end up looking at a rebuy screen sooner or later

 

[lysan]

This is definitely the last game I bought that throws PvE and PvP into one bucket.

Mobius is the place to go for PVE, personally I really don't care for open anymore.

 

[babelfisch]

A trade vessel that can survive to run away from a ganker can easily be built by almost anybody, which seems like sufficient balance to me. Why should a T6 be able to stick around to slug it out with a FAS or similar combat oriented ship?

I already addressed this point in the post before.

 

[jasonbarron]

I already addressed this point in the post before.

I just scanned through all your posts in this thread and have still not seen an answer to that simple question: Why should a T6 be able to stick around to slug it out with a FAS or similar combat oriented ship?

I get that you think a trade vessel should be able to duke it out with combat optimised FdL, just not picking up on a proper justification for it from a gameplay perspective.