What if... [Separate PvP/PvE Theory]

[Tom2]

If you don't want to play PvP, play Solo.
If you don't want to play PvP but don't want to play alone, play in a private group you trust.
If you don't want to play PvP but insist of wanting to play in open, play careful and learn how to avoid PvP.
If you don't want to play PvP and don't want it to exist in the game mode you play, quit playing Elite: Dangerous, this game is not for you.


The Elite: Dangerous galaxy is a 'cutthroat galaxy' PvP is part of the game but can also be avoided using the Solo Mode or a Private Group.
If you want Elite: Space Truck Simulator or Elite: Space Duck Hunt without PvP you either play solo or in a group or simply leave.

 

[babelfisch]

No, that I agree with, and was actually my point in a roundabout fashion. I saw the words "I don't like balance" and took it to mean someone doesn't like challenge. My apologies, Navigare, if that was not your meaning - but either way a balance issue was put forward as a reason for PvP/PvE not coexisting.

And that isn't a PvP/PvE issue; balance is, in this case, purely subjective (though ultimately should be a non-issue in PvE if FD correctly scaled sites/ranks)...as is whether a player plays for loving hugs with other CMDRs or watching every world burn. All that ED needs to do, whatever it does, is allow CMDRs to go in for the loving hugs or set worlds alight.

I said it before, no reason not to say it a third time...

Balancing PvE and PvP builds would actually increase / add challenge to the game. Currently there is nothing challenging in destroying a T7 in an engineered FAS.

 

[babelfisch]

[redacted]

 

[StiTch]

Why not just make an OPEN PVE and OPEN PVP, problem solved, you can close SOLO if that is a technical issue.

I don't get to make decisions on anything about that, but I believe FD's reasoning to be similar to my own. Or at least I hope so.

Why don't I agree with Open PvE/PvP? Because the game has the potential to be so much more than that. A persistent open universe where all players coexist and interact, in the style of a spaceship sim, could be a beautiful thing. Someone wants to block a trade route in order to halt their power from progressing? Go for it. Someone wants to rally up a group of anti-gankers, and take over their home system? Schweeeeeet. A group wants to interdict and stop someone carrying UA bombs to a popular station? Do it, Son.

Splitting the game into PvE and PvP groups immediately pigeonholes all players into "I am going to trade or shoot NPCs on repeat all night" and "I am going to look for a straight up duel on repeat all night". It doesn't do much of a job catering for anyone in between - for pirates, for roleplayers...or, for that matter, and in the most respectful yet honest manner possible, doesn't do anything much to cater to anyone but already pigeonholed PvE players.

But...we gotta take everyone into account, right? Being forced to trade between two stations for your time or do repeated ganks on others doesn't sound like and "blazing of one's trail" is happening there.

This really is outside the scope of my original comment, though. TL;DR there's nothing that stops PvP/PvE guys playing together other than opinion (and let's not forget, "the PvPers" will generally engage in PvE anyway, and we definitely dramatise everything on the forum).

I said it before, no reason not to say it a third time...

Balancing PvE and PvP builds would actually increase / add challenge to the game. Currently there is nothing challenging in destroying a T7 in an engineered FAS.

Sorry mate, I don't have a clue what you're on about.

Are you trying to say this game has a problem with PvE/PvP mixing, because an engineered warship can comfortably defeat an unengineered trade brick?

Call me stupid, or possibly too tired this morning, but that's what I am seeing.

 

[CMDR Vozz]

I dont get why people are always looking for problems when there are none.
This game has all the modes that are needed and doesnt need anymore.

Private for coop, solo for people who want to play a single player game.
And then there is the open mode which does exactly as intended. Its just the players that are playing it wrong.
Since years gamers are looking for the 'perfect' build in games. Which is good, however the perfect trading and exploration builds you find on the internet are in elite's open mode actually not that perfect...

Playing in open mode means you're taking the risk of being interdicted by other players and you should build your trading vessel keeping this in mind.
I see so many builds where the weapons and utility slots are just empty. Its these players that are whining they dont stand a chance which is perfectly normal.
Shields, hull and utilities are very important in open and its the builds that utilize this that are 'perfect' for open mode. You need those but it will be at the expense of 'perfect' efficiency!!! Not using them is your fault and not the game mode.
All these components can also be engineered just as everything on the combat orientated vessels.
Being able to use them efficiently and then escape that hostile player could only give you the thrill of your life.

Conclusion: play open in the right way or stick to the other modes...

Just my view on this endless debacle

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Then I'm not sure what he means - "I think PvE and PvP just don't work together. For various reasons. What I really dislike most is balance"? Either way, there's no PvE and PvP problem in any of balance. Players like to use factors such as balance as a vector to complain about PvE or PvP, but there's nothing stopping the game having balancing that suits both.

That is if FD could get anything like the engineers right, but that's not related to either player base either. That was a cluck up all round.

Apart from the balance I personally dislike most, it's that player motivations just don't match. Coop motivation is pretty much the opposite to PvP and you simply can't force PvE and coop-minded people into antagonistic playstyle and think it'll work out fine. it doesn't.

 

[Gunnet]

Hello Commanders

Other MMORPG have found solutions to the PVP vs. PVE problem, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. The following approaches work pretty well elsewhere:

Variant 1. No PVP in the open game, PVP is only possible at special locations designed for the purpose. The players enter these zones on their own decision. This has been done in GuildWars2 for example.

Variant 2. Consensual PVP only in the open, a player needs to activate the option "allow PVP" in order to be able to attack other players who have also activated the option. If the option is not activated, no PVP is possible for that player and against that player. There can be special regions, where the option "allow PVP" is mandatory and the pilots get a warning before jumping into that kind of system. This has been used in World of Warcraft for example.

Variant 3. Split the open in two parts, one where PVP is mandatory and one where PVP is impossible. The player chooses whether he enters the PVP or PVE realm. This is also an idea from World of Warcraft

Elements of the three variants could also be combined to find a suitable solution for this game. As a counterpart, we could get rid of the solo mode and the group modes.

My point is that the PVE players are forced out of the open as things are now. This is not a viable solution in my opinion. The community needs to stop to be judgemental towards players who don't like to get their ship blown up within a few seconds, while attempting to fly through a well frequented system. The goal for everyone should be, that if a commander encounters a fellow commander, she/he should be excited and happy about it.

Greetings

Robert de Vries

Indeed. This is essentially a solved problem. Past developers faced the same hurdles with making one game cater to both PvE and PvP playstyles, and their successes are there to be borrowed.

 

[babelfisch]

I don't get to make decisions on anything about that, but I believe FD's reasoning to be similar to my own. Or at least I hope so.

Why don't I agree with Open PvE/PvP? Because the game has the potential to be so much more than that. A persistent open universe where all players coexist and interact, in the style of a spaceship sim, could be a beautiful thing. Someone wants to block a trade route in order to halt their power from progressing? Go for it. Someone wants to rally up a group of anti-gankers, and take over their home system? Schweeeeeet. A group wants to interdict and stop someone carrying UA bombs to a popular station? Do it, Son.

Splitting the game into PvE and PvP groups immediately pigeonholes all players into "I am going to trade or shoot NPCs on repeat all night" and "I am going to look for a straight up duel on repeat all night". It doesn't do much of a job catering for anyone in between - for pirates, for roleplayers...or, for that matter, and in the most respectful yet honest manner possible, doesn't do anything much to cater to anyone but already pigeonholed PvE players.

But...we gotta take everyone into account, right? Being forced to trade between two stations for your time or do repeated ganks on others doesn't sound like and "blazing of one's trail" is happening there.

This really is outside the scope of my original comment, though. TL;DR there's nothing that stops PvP/PvE guys playing together other than opinion (and let's not forget, "the PvPers" will generally engage in PvE anyway, and we definitely dramatise everything on the forum).

I absolutely agree with that. But to make it work, changes need to be done:
- better balance between trade and combat ships
- better police response
- meaningful security levels
- karma system
Strangely a certain group of PvP focused people will always argue against this. I believe that's because they don't like a challenge. They are carebears who fear the day their targets can actually fight back.
And to make it worse they'll call everyone who doesn't want to get blown up in seconds cowards. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[StiTch]

I dont get why people are always looking for problems when there are none.
This game has all the modes that are needed and doesnt need anymore.

Private for coop, solo for people who want to play a single player game.
And then there is the open mode which does exactly as intended.

Dat moment when someone understands ^

Hopefully C&P will iron out a little of the forum worrying. Probably won't change much in game but the problem was always bigger here, anyway.

 

[babelfisch]

I dont get why people are always looking for problems when there are none.
This game has all the modes that are needed and doesnt need anymore.

Private for coop, solo for people who want to play a single player game.
And then there is the open mode which does exactly as intended. Its just the players that are playing it wrong.
Since years gamers are looking for the 'perfect' build in games. Which is good, however the perfect trading and exploration builds you find on the internet are in elite's open mode actually not that perfect...

Playing in open mode means you're taking the risk of being interdicted by other players and you should build your trading vessel keeping this in mind.
I see so many builds where the weapons and utility slots are just empty. Its these players that are whining they dont stand a chance which is perfectly normal.
Shields, hull and utilities are very important in open and its the builds that utilize this that are 'perfect' for open mode. You need those but it will be at the expense of 'perfect' efficiency!!! Not using them is your fault and not the game mode.
All these components can also be engineered just as everything on the combat orientated vessels.
Being able to use them efficiently and then escape that hostile player could only give you the thrill of your life.

Conclusion: play open in the right way or stick to the other modes...

Just my view on this endless debacle

Why should anyone put weapons on his trade ship when the no. 1 advice is to high wake as soon as possible, which doesn't work with deployed hardpoints? What exactly should I achieve against an engineered FAS with my T7 and it's tiny weapons?

 

[StiTch]

I absolutely agree with that. But to make it work, changes need to be done:
- better balance between trade and combat ships
- better police response
- meaningful security levels
- karma system
Strangely a certain group of PvP focused people will always argue against this. I believe that's because they don't like a challenge. They are carebears who fear the day their targets can actually fight back.
And to make it worse they'll call everyone who doesn't want to get blown up in seconds cowards. It doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, definitely. I would personally rather see caution in play here...yeah yeah, griefers damn well need consequence, but I'm also not behind "do five murders and instantly have your ship seized and you can't play for a few days" etc. etc. (yes, I've seen recommendations that serious).

If you ask me personally though, that does - at this stage - fall under game development. This game is not developed enough (or developed in the wrong places...I've had enough novelty combat "features" by now). C&P is not developed enough, combat content over equipment is underdeveloped...but nothing that would actually stop everyone existing together with the right content and tweaks. And ofc solo/PG modes.

I'm dying for the place to be more well rounded personally. I'd love to think that all the murderers out ganking noobs or whatever without any consideration will actually be ousted from their spot by local forces and PvP bounty hunters...

 

[CMDR Vozz]

My point is that the PVE players are forced out of the open as things are now. This is not a viable solution in my opinion.

If you want to play only PVE content and dont play together with others, but hate the PVP, then why even come to open?
Or you want to play with some friends together then you can perfectly go to private. Its not that this game has big group content.
Hell they have thousands of players in some private groups if you really want to play PVE but not together but still in the same server... (i even ask why??? ) to do that.

The community needs to stop to be judgemental towards players who don't like to get their ship blown up within a few seconds, while attempting to fly through a well frequented system.

Like i said in previous post, being blown up within a few seconds is that commanders fault. The game gives him plenty of tools to avoid it. Even a solo mode...

The goal for everyone should be, that if a commander encounters a fellow commander, she/he should be excited and happy about it.

I am every time in the current open mode.

 

[CMDR_Elver]

I like the idea (think Ca$hback was saying similar earlier) that each mode of the game has effectively a different save points for your character, i.e. Cmdr X (open), Cmdr X (PG), Cmdr X (Solo). The game is different for each mode anyway. Not being able to jump between modes taking ships, credits, location would not be a problem and let players decide the playing styles, strategy etc. for each mode. The BGS would remain as one, no need to have parrallel galaxies. For Power play content Cmdrs could only play in open. Perhaps have a limit on the number of Private groups a player can belong to. This should allow flexibility, allowing Cmdrs to play the game to how they want for each mode and reduce the potential for exploitation.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

If you want to play only PVE content and dont play together with others, but hate the PVP, then why even come to open?
...

Some would just like to meet like-minded people.

 

[babelfisch]

If you want to play only PVE content and dont play together with others, but hate the PVP, then why even come to open?
Or you want to play with some friends together then you can perfectly go to private. Its not that this game has big group content.
Hell they have thousands of players in some private groups if you really want to play PVE but not together but still in the same server... (i even ask why??? ) to do that.


Like i said in previous post, being blown up within a few seconds is that commanders fault. The game gives him plenty of tools to avoid it. Even a solo mode...




I am every time in the current open mode.

First, people play in Open because they want to meet players. Open is not the PvP mode. Only a small part of the community plays PvP, as long as someone doesn't visit CGs, Capital systems or alien ruins chances are pretty low that he meets someone who wants to blow him up. The game isn't about PvP either that's by design. PvP is a possibility, but it isn't the core feature of the game. People who don't like PvP have just as much reason to play there as you do.
Second, the tools the game gives you to not get blown up are PvP centric ship builds. Those who love to destroy trade ships will be the first to complain when they actually meet a real threat.
Unless you are talking about high waking, which isn't really interesting game play, neither for the attacker nor the target. Once everyone learned how to high wake or join a different mode, those who prefer to attack trade ships will be again the first to complain.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Open PvE and Open PvP, and PvP flags have all been pretty much discussed to death. Lol

The fundamental difference to my (rather terrible) idea is that the PvP and PvE galaxies would run on different rules.
Allowing PvP to be hyper balanced and competitive once again.
And take the reigns of PvE, to allow a more traditional solo or co-op experience.

I'd go as far as removing loads of the Engineers from the PvP galaxy, seems as they are the ones responsible for a lot of the PvP balancing issues.
PvE Engineers could be made much more interesting too.

Again, it's not likely to happen. Nor would it work if it did happen, unless the PvP galaxy was server based, which is another bane for the PvP crowd. And even less likely to be done.

(The PvP crowd actually get the short end of the stick more than the PvE crowd do!)

Lol

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[CMDR Vozz]

Open is not the PvP mode.

Its not a PVE mode either.

People who don't like PvP have just as much reason to play there as you do.

Yes, i agree and they are allowed to play open. They just have to accept the developers vision about open mode. The devs reserve the right to create a universe, a game, a virtual world/life with their rules. Their rules are that there arent any in open mode. Its a free for all world just like in real life. This is the challenge, the thrill they want their players to experience.
And i fully agree with this and am very happy that there arent any more modes.

Second, the tools the game gives you to not get blown up are PvP centric ship builds. Those who love to destroy trade ships will be the first to complain when they actually meet a real threat.

The last sentence is a presumption of something that isnt proven yet.
Im not a ganker, but i did some piracy in early days and probably will do some in the future again. Like a gentleman offcourse. However finding a challenge is what most players vs players are after.
You cant ignore the fact that almost no trading ships have any defense. They all want the most profit. And the game allows it. But in open it has some risk...
The game provides point defense, turrets, chaff, mines, hull, shields... and so many other things (and they can be upgraded also).
And yes high waking is a possibility, its in the game, its an escape route, use it if you need it i would say cause for the attacker there are also means of stopping it.


I understand some of the wishes but this game gives us so many content that players wont use.
Never have i seen a convoy of player trading ships, maybe protected by combat ships. These things are what bothering me most.
Its like the players are not willing to solve it theirselves, they want the easy way, with an easy mode.
Im happy FDEV is not listening... yet...

 

[lysan]

I don't get to make decisions on anything about that, but I believe FD's reasoning to be similar to my own. Or at least I hope so.

Why don't I agree with Open PvE/PvP? Because the game has the potential to be so much more than that. A persistent open universe where all players coexist and interact, in the style of a spaceship sim, could be a beautiful thing. Someone wants to block a trade route in order to halt their power from progressing? Go for it. Someone wants to rally up a group of anti-gankers, and take over their home system? Schweeeeeet. A group wants to interdict and stop someone carrying UA bombs to a popular station? Do it, Son.

Splitting the game into PvE and PvP groups immediately pigeonholes all players into "I am going to trade or shoot NPCs on repeat all night" and "I am going to look for a straight up duel on repeat all night". It doesn't do much of a job catering for anyone in between - for pirates, for roleplayers...or, for that matter, and in the most respectful yet honest manner possible, doesn't do anything much to cater to anyone but already pigeonholed PvE players.

But...we gotta take everyone into account, right? Being forced to trade between two stations for your time or do repeated ganks on others doesn't sound like and "blazing of one's trail" is happening there.

This really is outside the scope of my original comment, though. TL;DR there's nothing that stops PvP/PvE guys playing together other than opinion (and let's not forget, "the PvPers" will generally engage in PvE anyway, and we definitely dramatise everything on the forum).




Sorry mate, I don't have a clue what you're on about.

Are you trying to say this game has a problem with PvE/PvP mixing, because an engineered warship can comfortably defeat an unengineered trade brick?

Call me stupid, or possibly too tired this morning, but that's what I am seeing.

The game design for ED is done on a PVE platform, any PVP interaction is a bolted on addon, and it's not working.

Lets use one PVP platform I truly like, DayZ SA. Here you can be a lone wolf, gang up in groups, and only your skills set is the limit.
In ED you got all kinds of magic arrows pointing at the players, you don't have a game designed around PVP other than pew pew.

Just look at ....MC and our beloved(not so much) hollow square RADAR blip.

 

[StiTch]

The game design for ED is done on a PVE platform, any PVP interaction is a bolted on addon, and it's not working.

Lets use one PVP platform I truly like, DayZ SA. Here you can be a lone wolf, gang up in groups, and only your skills set is the limit.
In ED you got all kinds of magic arrows pointing at the players, you don't have a game designed around PVP other than pew pew.

Just look at ....MC and our beloved(not so much) hollow square RADAR blip.

*sigh*...you know, what strikes me as comic is that when you strip away the "I hate PvP" banner a lot of players march under, there's actually very little consistency in what they're fighting for.

I've had a lot of flak for defending PvP "because players can do what they want, and ED lets me blaze my own trail, but you're stopping me!". Here on the other hand someone is calling Elite a PvE game (glad you decided), and basically saying all emergent content can go do one if it means PvP was involved, because that shouldn't be part of the game.

Smooth.

As a PvPer, I'll decide whether the game has scope for enjoying PvP, thankyou very much - and if that's a problem with you, you'll need to come up with a better argument than "well ED isn't a PvP game". It's not an anything game outside of "combat", though I could happily point out we got PP, which effectively gives meaning to player conflict. That's far more attention than PvE specific combat ever got...*chuckles*

You know, a lot of PvE players would do better if they just stopped worrying. Yes, players exist that shoot each other. Yes, they are going to do that in the same galaxy as you. No, that doesn't mean you need to get your knickers in a twist.

 

[Aris_]

There is a rift between loadouts you need for pvp vs pve , we had a chance with the 2.1 ai to even the field BUT due to easy progression (res/cz farming )and low risk game (abysmal player shields no npc eng. ships-brain dead ai ) a large portion of the player base just wants an easy game.


We are going for a second fiasco with Thargoids because player base is too unwilling to up their game and the existence or solo-prv. hideouts does not do them any good especially if you going to need a special loadout to fight them.


The third loadout in a game pvp-pve-pvt? , not to mention training
lol