What is a "fair fight"?

Jethzk

J
Robert Maynard said:
I'd go a bit further - a fair fight, in my opinion, is one where there is around a 50% chance that one will lose.
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This pretty much sums it up.

The question is, why does a fair fight matter? I would say that the goal is for both players to have fun. Personally I would consider equal ships fun. I like skill being the difference in the fight. For this reason, I've always wanted a 'stock' classification for ships that can be used for sporting events. A new player may have a significant disadvantage, but they also learn the most during fights and will progress their skill level faster than an experienced pilot.
 

Darkfyre99

Darkfyre99
Jack Schitt said:
The words "fairness" and "balance" should never be part of an Elite game.



What should apply are "context" and "consequence". That a pilot in an engineered Corvette can intercept a pilot in a stock Sidewinder in the middle of nowhere and destroy them for no reason isn't unfair, it's just part of the Elite galaxy. Where ED fails is that the same pilot can, if they choose, go to Eravate and do it over and over and over and over and over with zero meaningful consequence. That is what needs addressing. But hey, we've all danced this dance before and will no doubt continue to do so until FD changes the music.

The fairest fights in ED are to be found in CQC, which hardly anyone plays. Make of that what you will.
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I agree.

Both consequences and rewards should scale, based on how "fair" a fight is, but the fight itself should never be restricted to being fair, outside of tournaments and other sporting events. If non-consensual PvP is ever to approach being healthy (aka fun for both sides) in this game, a veteran in an A rated and grade 5 engineered should be punished much more heavily for preying on newbies in a hauler, while said veteran should WANT to bring an eagle into a conflict zone, because she'll get a bigger combat bond, and earn her faction more influence, for killing someone in a better ship.

I really don't understand why Frontier has failed to learn from the failures of other games that attempted to have non-consensual PvP. If you want open to be healthy, then healthy PvP should be rewarded, but player killing should be punished.
 

crushdepth

C
Jethzk said:
This pretty much sums it up.

The question is, why does a fair fight matter? I would say that the goal is for both players to have fun. Personally I would consider equal ships fun. I like skill being the difference in the fight. For this reason, I've always wanted a 'stock' classification for ships that can be used for sporting events. A new player may have a significant disadvantage, but they also learn the most during fights and will progress their skill level faster than an experienced pilot.
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This is why I suggest PVP heads ask potential opponents if they'd like a fight. If they're willing it doesn't matter if the ships are precisely equal.

I don't see how a five second warship splatfest on a noob sidewinder would be fun, but apparently some people think that's cool. Judging by the attacks on my iEagle around Jameson Memorial.
 
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Han_Zen

Han_Zen
We don't need fair fights. We need a fair game.

Give the dude in the Sidey the option to fly where it's 'safe'.

Not safe in the way that the Corvette can not kill him. Safe in the knowledge that law enforcement will kill the Corvette to, if the Sidey was clean.

These totally safe systems should be quite rare, and security should gradually scale down with sec level and population(economical strength of system). Crimes in these systems against NPCs should be punished with the same force.

Now, both the Sidey guy and the Corvette guy will have to do risk assessments of their actions. They can play the game without having to consider silly meta-morals.

The most important thing is to dethrone the players as the most dangerous element in the game.

Make Elite dangerous for everyone.
 

Darkfyre99

Darkfyre99
crushdepth said:
This is why I suggest PVP heads ask potential opponents if they'd like a fight. If they're willing it doesn't matter if the ships are precisely equal.

I don't see how a five second warship splatfest on a noob sidewinder would be fun, but apparently some people think that's cool. Judging by the attacks on my iEagle around Jameson Memorial.
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The thing is, IMO the "PvP heads," when pirating, actually take the time hail their target before opening fire, often multiple times, sometimes starting in Supercruise. By the time they open fire, their potential victim has had plenty if time to decide if they want to fight or flee. Although I will grant you that Elite's comm window is in a lousy place, and it is sometimes easy to miss incoming comms if you're concentrating on something else.

It is the player-killers who will open fire without warning ASAP, so that those "cheating merchants" can't high wake and rob them if their rightful kill.
 

Apos

Apos
Taking into account modern gaming mentality (regardless of user's age), a fair fight is the fight that you win.
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
Arguendo
Snarfbuckle said:
A fair fight?

- An engagement that has lasting consequences for both parties unless in Anarchy space and/or the target is wanted (ie, crime and punishment to make Elite "Dangerous" for aggressors as well)

- NOT ganking newbs in Sideys

- Not combat logging when facing stronger opposition

- Not being an at and bump ship in stations so they get wanted and blown up
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3 out of 4 for the OP as far as I can tell :D
 

Skellen

Skellen
Jack Schitt said:
The fairest fights in ED are to be found in CQC, which hardly anyone plays. Make of that what you will.
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Yet we still have to have the stupid CQC ranking Icon in our ships display without an option for getting rid of it. (Come on FD get shot of it, its not part of the true game!)
 

Rob At Work

R
"All is fair in love and war" & "the first rule of war is, there are no rules"

In other words there will never be fairness in war, problem is in simulated war the loser lives & he/she/they get to express an opinion, which quite often has a sense of disappointment & bitterness, when the reason given doesn't express these emotions it feels more like a sport than simulated war (IMO).
 

Martind Forlon

Martind Forlon
Novo Mundus said:
A fair fight is:

An unrealistic, idealist, naive dream.
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This sums it imo perfectly. Today in time when exist advanced hardware, scripts, vastly differs connection quality, then comes engineers lucky rolls, special builds, skills,commanders mental set, experience, available free play time etc. etc. ... you can fight, flee or be killed doing so, but believing in "fair" fight in non-consensual PvP can only very naive/optimistic :) person.
 
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Johnathlon

J
If I was in my Hyundai and someone in a Challanger Tank picked a fight with me it would be unfair. It would also be stupid and many sensible mechanisms are in place to stop it happening. Unlike in the game, which is a game after all. Some people want to apply some realistic principles to it, some don't. Neither is right or wrong.
 

Frank

Frank
A fair fight is one where all the participants are consenting.

The easiest way to ensure the fairest fight is to pre-arrange it...

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...b-for-every-skill-level?p=4688218#post4688218

The duels we hold are mostly in stock Sidewinders because they are easy to ensure a level playing field, and the loser doesn't suffer financially. But if the duelists want to try out any spaceships and/or any loadouts they want then that's up to them. Anyone who agrees to a fight where they are at a disadvantage has only themselves to blame.
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
I think the main thing for me on this topic is that this is a game, not real life.

If the game was more personal, for example, we were sat playing in the same room, we could express our dissatisfaction to another player regarding an "unfair" fight more directly, and either more directly, or just possibly, by kicking the other person in the nuts. :D

When you have a situation in ED, like a Corvette guy taking on a trader and blowing them up without reason, its a bit like two people sitting down to play chess, but one player has all their pieces removed except for the king. Check and mate in a couple of moves. Its over before it has begun.

That's no fun for the person in that position, and only fun for a particular type of person on the other side. I know i'd get no fun from playing a game in such an imbalanced way, even in the winning position. Its like taking candy from a baby, and i'm no Montgomery Burns!

Its why i maintain ED is a bad game for PvP, because situations like that can and do occur. A good PvP game should ensure that everyone involved has a full set of chess pieces to play with, so that its just a game of skill, and any victory is a measure of skill.
 

Snarfbuckle

S
Han_Zen said:
Not safe in the way that the Corvette can not kill him. Safe in the knowledge that law enforcement will kill the Corvette to, if the Sidey was clean.
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Or at least make the guy wanted, hunted in 50 systems and using a suicidewinder will not just wash away the bounty.
 
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