What is depth?

[mistohise]

So I hear a lot of noise about people saying that ED is shallow and that other games have more depth?

Can someone please explain, what is depth?
What is this mystery element that ED needs?

For a frame of reference, this is how I judge a game-

Can I enjoy playing the game? Yes/No.

For ED I answer "Yes".

Or, to put it another way, can I simulate flying a space ship around, shoot stuff, trade, and fly off to explore? Yes.

So, what is missing. What do the devs need to add to fill in the missing depth that people are looking for?

Please provide depth in your answers..

 

[Cynaqq]

What is depth?

Oh baby, don't ask me.

Don't ask me.

No more.

 

[Lowievisser]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/depth

 

[GilliganTX]

For me, the depth Elite lacks is Uniqueness of areas.

Anarchy, Federal, Pirate, Imperial, Independent, Monarchy, Democratic, Corporate, and Dictator systems are all identical. There is no real discernible difference between them. You can get largely the same experience from a pirate system in imperial space as you can get in a high security system in Alliance space.



Vs Skyrim, for example. Markarth feels very different form Solitude, and each have unique traits in the types of enemies you will find, the attitudes of the NPC's, and the general tone of quests from that area.

All areas in Elite are more or less equal.

 

[mistohise]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/depth

Hah! Yes, very clever. I am familiar with the word, though. What I ask for is how it relates to ED...

 

[Flimley]

​...."Depth"... a new fragrance for spacemen.

 

[MaraJade]

There was a big thread on this already a few days ago or so.

 

[Kapow]

Sure think. easy to do. Mechanics and rule sets that create good world dynamics for Sandbox including Risk/Reward balance, non of which are in Elite Dangerous.
Justice System is pointless. Most content in ED is driven purely by RNG and nothing has real consequences, but rather a shallow effect or grind. Game has no long purpose or aim and is flopping from Single player to multiplayer with no systematic advantage.

Example of Good mechanics - Player Contracts, Player Driven Economy with real time updates, Player driven corporations with effect on the systems which go beyond a spread sheet. If in single player , NPC interaction needs to make sense, not that you get interdicted by a spy 5 times in your powers home system, or that you get interdicted by an Eagle when you fly anaconda and the NPC keeps telling how you will die while you make yourself coffee... That would all make depth. If systems at war actually had different economic needs with flactuating markets updated in real time, when going to lawless system actually meant something... ect...

Here is an example of what currently happens in the game and how it could be build upon. In that thread I address what is wrong with the current powerplay and justice system https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=231915

If you feel that the depth is sufficent please tell me what you do whole day in the game.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

Depth is a code word for whatever you think should be in the game, but is not.

 

[Bobbydylan]

"Depth" I'd regard is the ability to approach and solve a problem more than just one way.

So, cleaning a base in Crysis 1 had more depth than clearing a base in a COD game.

 

[mistohise]

For me, the depth Elite lacks is Uniqueness of areas.

Anarchy, Federal, Pirate, Imperial, Independent, Monarchy, Democratic, Corporate, and Dictator systems are all identical. There is no real discernible difference between them. You can get largely the same experience from a pirate system in imperial space as you can get in a high security system in Alliance space.



Vs Skyrim, for example. Markarth feels very different form Solitude, and each have unique traits in the types of enemies you will find, the attitudes of the NPC's, and the general tone of quests from that area.

All areas in Elite are more or less equal.

Ok. So let's take this as an example. I can see what you are saying. But how would you have the devs improve this aspect?
For example, there are already greater chances of interdiction in poorer security systems.
Different types of world have different goods that are prohibited.
So there are subtle differences already. What differences would you want to see on top? Of course, in Skyrim it is easy to make one area different to another, because there can be massive graphical change depending on if you want a hot or cold world, for example. The presentation of a Democracy or Anarchy cannot have that sort of graphical differentiation at this stage. (Maybe down the line you could introduce different buildings in populated worlds).

 

[xslam]

Depth is how much time you need to figure out that you are not a hero, you are a carebear.

google another topic, where huge forum war happend, and many forum heroes fallen,

 

[mistohise]

"Depth" I'd regard is the ability to approach and solve a problem more than just one way.

So, cleaning a base in Crysis 1 had more depth than clearing a base in a COD game.

Ok. But if we say the objective is "Destroy a ship" then there's more than one way I could do that. I could shoot it with lasers or with cannons, or I could ram it.
If the objective is to make money, I can do that in many different ways already.

I will accept that, in the current missions system, if someone offers a delivery mission, you essentially complete that by delivering the package, but, even then, the missions are being overhauled right now, and some of them will already interrupt to present alternate paths. It's hard to see how you add depth to that.

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NPC interaction needs to make sense, not that you get interdicted by a spy 5 times in your powers home system, or that you get interdicted by an Eagle when you fly anaconda and the NPC keeps telling how you will die while you make yourself coffee... That would all make depth. .

See, to me, what you are talking about there is a bug with the current AI. You're saying "the AI needs to be better so that it interdicts more cleverly". That has nothing to do with depth, that's simply a bug or an example of some lazy coding that has crept in. This absolutely has to be fixed, I agree.

 

[Red Anders]

There was a big thread on this already a few days ago or so.

There's a big thread on it every few days or so. God it's tedious.

Suspect this was the one you were thinking of:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=225588&highlight=depth

OP - have a quick check before posting a new thread. Not having a pop at you, it's just that half the reason these discussions always end up as circular is the same people end up posting to make the same point in every new thread that is added about the same subject.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

There's a big thread on it every few days or so. God it's tedious.

Suspect this was the one you were thinking of:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=225588&highlight=depth

OP - have a quick check before posting a new thread. Not having a pop at you, it's just that half the reason these discussions always end up as circular is the same people end up posting to make the same point in every new thread that is added about the same subject.

But doesn't that add depth to the forums?

/s

 

[GilliganTX]

Ok. So let's take this as an example. I can see what you are saying. But how would you have the devs improve this aspect?
For example, there are already greater chances of interdiction in poorer security systems.
Different types of world have different goods that are prohibited.
So there are subtle differences already. What differences would you want to see on top? Of course, in Skyrim it is easy to make one area different to another, because there can be massive graphical change depending on if you want a hot or cold world, for example. The presentation of a Democracy or Anarchy cannot have that sort of graphical differentiation at this stage. (Maybe down the line you could introduce different buildings in populated worlds).

Yeah there are minor BGS differences. For example some of my rare-trade stops have come under Federal control, and I no longer have access to some goods, or have lost the ability to sell other goods there. I know that there is a higher chance of interdiction in Lawless and Anarchy systems, but note my choice of words: "Discernable difference," "experience," and "feel."

Yes, there are technical differences, but I've found they typically don't translate into different experiences.


I KNOW, the BGS changes. I don't notice the changes, typically.


Something that could be done, I think you hit on it a little bit: More custom design for stations depending on gov. type, faction alliance, system pop. and economic status, if there's a War going on or not, etc. Maybe some ship debris fields in systems at war or in lawless systems.



I know this is probably a tall order for a Proceduraly Generated environment of 10,000+ inhabited star systems, but, eh.

 

[bootsam]

'Depth' is subjective and everyone will have their own definition. Its a pointless forum debate because everyone has an opinion on it and no two opinions will agree on it. However as a mechanism to create forum discord, its quite an effective word. Almost as good as 'griefer'.

 

[Watcher]

It sounds like we should get more obviously differentiated factions with the 2.1 update. That is going to be very mission board though so perhaps again to subtle.
As mistohise said there are lots of little things but how to make those differences more apparent?
Difference in the sort of language used is sort of a thing that happens in bulletin boards now but can perhaps get more pronounced and more obviously different between factions and types of space. Still fairly subtle though.
More obvious factional livery on stations and outposts perhaps - pirate outposts are pretty neat in this regard already but I'm not sure how far you can take that. Similar for ship livery used by factions but this is again subtle and already somewhat used.
Different directives for landing and taking off from stations and how lax or not they are about enforcing rules? Could do, could be annoying too though, especially for newer players - would definitely provide a very obvious difference though.
The 2.1 update and dealing with different people thing brings the opportunity to play around with faces, clothes and possibly backgrounds - would add a bit and sounds like they are planning this already.
I'm sure FD are keen to push more obvious differences to so I'm interested to see how they try and do this.

This is all entirely different from depth of mechanics of course, but that is whole other long complicated thing.

 

[Kapow]

Ok. But if we say the objective is "Destroy a ship" then there's more than one way I could do that. I could shoot it with lasers or with cannons, or I could ram it.
If the objective is to make money, I can do that in many different ways already.

I will accept that, in the current missions system, if someone offers a delivery mission, you essentially complete that by delivering the package, but, even then, the missions are being overhauled right now, and some of them will already interrupt to present alternate paths. It's hard to see how you add depth to that.

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See, to me, what you are talking about there is a bug with the current AI. You're saying "the AI needs to be better so that it interdicts more cleverly". That has nothing to do with depth, that's simply a bug or an example of some lazy coding that has crept in. This absolutely has to be fixed, I agree.

Please read the thread I linked in. I go in depth about what would improve the game and make it stick. I see no reason to retype that here. The question is a click bait and you not reading through all the above clearly shows that you are not looking for an answer, but want to start a forum war. Not something I'll partake in, thank you.

 

[mistohise]

Something that could be done, I think you hit on it a little bit: More custom design for stations depending on gov. type, faction alliance, system pop. and economic status, if there's a War going on or not, etc. Maybe some ship debris fields in systems at war or in lawless systems.



I know this is probably a tall order for a Proceduraly Generated environment of 10,000+ inhabited star systems, but, eh.

Cor. Someone actually defined some added depth. Wasn't expecting that.

It does seem like a good idea to have more varied station types.