What is depth?
- Thread starter mistohise
- Start date
Also disparaged by those who have little or no idea what it actually means.
Another thought, just kind of spit balling:
The Original Assassin's Creed: Yes, it eventually gets repetitive, but I think that game had depth of location down pretty well (whole series really). The feel of cities changed from district to district, in appearance and NPC behavior and difficulty.
On the actual game play though, which is the main reason I bring it up. Each "Assassination" was multi part - find info about your target via 2 or three different mechanics, stalk them, then go in for the kill, AND escape.
So, for example, say I take an Assasination mission in Elite to kill a pirate lord, or assassinate a the leader of a competing political party a system over - There is no infiltrating the system, you simply arrive. There is really no hunting for your target. You simply wait for them to spawn. There is no real chase, you interdict, and summarily destroy them. Then you jump out with out incident.
What if instead, you needed to find other NPCs of your targets faction around a station, and "eavesdrop" on their comms and watch for a hint dropped as to the location of your target. Come to find out he's hiding out in a planetary ring or asteroid field, and you need to effectively search the area for him, avoiding ship patrols by running silent and hiding behind rocks. If you get spotted he'll try to flee, and you have to chase, instead of just turning to try and fight you every time (some still will). Then, once you do eliminate your target.
The Original Assassin's Creed: Yes, it eventually gets repetitive, but I think that game had depth of location down pretty well (whole series really). The feel of cities changed from district to district, in appearance and NPC behavior and difficulty.
On the actual game play though, which is the main reason I bring it up. Each "Assassination" was multi part - find info about your target via 2 or three different mechanics, stalk them, then go in for the kill, AND escape.
So, for example, say I take an Assasination mission in Elite to kill a pirate lord, or assassinate a the leader of a competing political party a system over - There is no infiltrating the system, you simply arrive. There is really no hunting for your target. You simply wait for them to spawn. There is no real chase, you interdict, and summarily destroy them. Then you jump out with out incident.
What if instead, you needed to find other NPCs of your targets faction around a station, and "eavesdrop" on their comms and watch for a hint dropped as to the location of your target. Come to find out he's hiding out in a planetary ring or asteroid field, and you need to effectively search the area for him, avoiding ship patrols by running silent and hiding behind rocks. If you get spotted he'll try to flee, and you have to chase, instead of just turning to try and fight you every time (some still will). Then, once you do eliminate your target.
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Honestly? I'd find that horrific. (I don't want to hide and infiltrate) BUT if that was one of many different options for missions, then sure. I doubt that this will come in the next mission update, as I'm thinking that the next update will be more of a change in delivery than content, but maybe they might head in that sort of direction.
Of course there should never be one single way to complete that kind of mission in a sand box, it was just one example, thought up on the spot. I like the upcoming idea of the Engineers. I'm interested to see how that will be implemented, as it could go a long way into making systems and stations feel more unique, just by the simple addition of a contact there with which to create "history."
I also think that the current multi-part missions should pay better. Typically, I've found, their three or four times the amount of time and effort to complete, with similar payouts to standard point to point hauling missions.
Anyway.
We all love sequels
For me 'Depth' is a personal thing, you can claim something has no depth but in reality it is you who has found nothing to draw you in. Lets look at the simplest type of game there is, an FPS called CoD.
WASD Space, shift, CTRL and the mouse plus it's buttons = the controls. Aim of the game, run and gun... For me this is not deep in anyway, no variation in game-play, tiny maps and the same game gets released every year without fail... But it sells in millions. Some of it's fans dive into the workings of the game, come up with all kinds of crazy gun reviews, map guides in fact you name it and a CoD player will have done it. Yet the game has no depth... To me at least.
When I hear others say ED has no depth I accept that as their opinion. The game for me has a lot of depth, it's inspired my desire to do some creative writing again based on my time in the galaxy. No other game has inspired me to do this much out of game activity, including visiting these forums other than the projects I work on where it's kind of expected I take part in certain activities outside the game, not that I mind at all!
https://youtu.be/jVL4st0blGU
This guy does a fine job of explaining what depth is. I suspect someone will really talk about the depth of ED in literal terms soon because this topic keeps coming up.
This guy does a fine job of explaining what depth is. I suspect someone will really talk about the depth of ED in literal terms soon because this topic keeps coming up.
What as in its x thousand lights years from top to bottom of the galaxy, how much depth do you need?
OP, what you are trying to do here is pretend that depth in a game isn't already a fairly well understood term, which it is. Depth for the most part for me means, mechanics that build on one another in interesting and unique ways that allow for a player to implement a unique strategy. For example, the civilization franchise is very deep because, for any one civ there can be many different play styles. For example, the mongols are usually very good at conquering, but that's not the only way they can be played, they can be a peaceful civ too because the game mechanics are set up to allow very many different play styles. Skyrim adds depth by allowing for very customized character builds, with mechanics that build upon one another in ways that may not be obvious on the first play through. Games like tomb raider for me are not really "deep" in game mechanics, each play through will mostly be the same, but that's alright though for a game like tomb raider, because for that game, depth is more about being emotionally invested in the character, and it's not meant to be played over and over. The witcher adds depth by giving the player choices that will have consequences down the line, and can drastically alter a single playthrough
What people mean when they say ED isn't very deep is that, for example, once you've gone mining once, that's pretty much it. there isn't much strategy in mining, just look for minerals and sell them. Or trading, the only strategy I find in trading is finding a route and doing it, there aren't many different ways to go about it. Basically, in ED, once you've tried something, that's it, there aren't many different ways to do something.
Believe it or not though, even the devs here at frontier understand what depth in a game is. The next big update that will allow us to customize our weapons and modules sounds really great to me, and I think will add a lot of depth to the game. Upgrading weapons will add complexity and strategy. Also, once I have my upgraded weapon, I will be more emotionally attached to it than just a simple pulse laser, so it may add some emotional depth as well.
Depth means complexity
Depth means emotional attachment
Depth means allowing for different strategies
Depth means I can do things a little differently each time I try it
Stop pretending like depth is a made up term that no one can really define and is only used by whiners to say the game isn't exactly how they want it. Depth in a game is well understood, and the people at Frontier are working on it.
What people mean when they say ED isn't very deep is that, for example, once you've gone mining once, that's pretty much it. there isn't much strategy in mining, just look for minerals and sell them. Or trading, the only strategy I find in trading is finding a route and doing it, there aren't many different ways to go about it. Basically, in ED, once you've tried something, that's it, there aren't many different ways to do something.
Believe it or not though, even the devs here at frontier understand what depth in a game is. The next big update that will allow us to customize our weapons and modules sounds really great to me, and I think will add a lot of depth to the game. Upgrading weapons will add complexity and strategy. Also, once I have my upgraded weapon, I will be more emotionally attached to it than just a simple pulse laser, so it may add some emotional depth as well.
Depth means complexity
Depth means emotional attachment
Depth means allowing for different strategies
Depth means I can do things a little differently each time I try it
Stop pretending like depth is a made up term that no one can really define and is only used by whiners to say the game isn't exactly how they want it. Depth in a game is well understood, and the people at Frontier are working on it.
It's a speciality of yours. Although, I wouldn't say "a great many things". More like many examples of the same thing.
Exactly!
Instead of simplistic "fly to location X, do action Y", there would be "fly to location X, maybe get attacked on the way, arrive in Y, can't find target, track them down, stealth mode to get close and destroy them and then run. Remaining enemies track you all the way back until you reach faction Z which comes to your aid..". Next time the enemies will be tougher as they're expecting you. Variety, surprise, interactivity, progression, challenge etc...etc..
I do think they're going in that direction, with multi-stage missions consisting of several (albeit simplistic) mission blocks.
meh all the arguments about this game has no depth could be used about real life.. so i ignore them.
That could be said about any topic at this point.
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Elusive... Indefinable... Mysterious...
Depth - Cologne pour l'homme by Calvin Klein.
Some of you may have noticed a little trend here, everyone says 'to ME, depth means'...some try to insist that their version of depth is the only correct and proper version, some don't, but it's ALWAYS a purely personal and subjective definition.
So, asking what depth means in a video game, ANY video game, it like asking someone who's the best musician or actor or writer or whatever, it's a personal opinion and subjective as hell, and has no objective meaning or application. Bran used a great example, CoD, to some people, about as much depth as a drop of water, to other people the depths are unfathomable, who's right, who's wrong? Both in both cases, because it's subjective.
Kapow says he has THE way to fix the game, one of the many thousands who've claimed that so far I might add. He is actually whining about getting attacked by other players, but his solution will fix the game and add depth! No such thing in actuality but hey, he says it's so, therefore, it must be so! He's even come in this thread and made that clear. Again, one of the thousands who've made that claim to date, and like all the rest, totally self serving and subjective.
What is depth? Depends on who you ask and in what context, and what time of day, their mood and what kind of day they are having as well, as that answer will change due to those factors.
I know I like a game or I don't, I don't usually delve too deeply into why, tends to lead me to discovering the flaws that I've ignored because I was having fun, which makes me not have fun anymore, and that's just a silly thing to do.
So, asking what depth means in a video game, ANY video game, it like asking someone who's the best musician or actor or writer or whatever, it's a personal opinion and subjective as hell, and has no objective meaning or application. Bran used a great example, CoD, to some people, about as much depth as a drop of water, to other people the depths are unfathomable, who's right, who's wrong? Both in both cases, because it's subjective.
Kapow says he has THE way to fix the game, one of the many thousands who've claimed that so far I might add. He is actually whining about getting attacked by other players, but his solution will fix the game and add depth! No such thing in actuality but hey, he says it's so, therefore, it must be so! He's even come in this thread and made that clear. Again, one of the thousands who've made that claim to date, and like all the rest, totally self serving and subjective.
What is depth? Depends on who you ask and in what context, and what time of day, their mood and what kind of day they are having as well, as that answer will change due to those factors.
I know I like a game or I don't, I don't usually delve too deeply into why, tends to lead me to discovering the flaws that I've ignored because I was having fun, which makes me not have fun anymore, and that's just a silly thing to do.
I love when people do this, because you know whatever response you make is going to met with a pithy explanation of how boring or repetitive that action is.
Depth: Now listen close, because this is the most important thing you will read in a long time.... Oops, forgot what I was going to say... But it was deep I tell you.
We'll never know because people don't answer this question. They just shrug and we never hear from them again on that topic.
We can't know what someone wants, (and Frontier can't code it) if they themselves can't articulate that need themselves.