What is greifing.

[Joe Spivey]

It doesn't matter what 'definition' you use. If a player 'feels' that he has been griefed then he is going to react the same whether it fits some artificial category or not. It is the reaction to the perceived 'griefing' that matters because this will determine what that player then does:

Shrug it off,
Kick the cat,
Cry,
Turn the PC off and go and do something more interesting with the wife (always risking more grief ),
Leave for Solo,
Leave the game and spread the word that Ed is full of griefers.

However he reacts it is down to him having perceived that he was griefed. Unfortunately, only the last two items on the list are the things we need to be concerned about because whether it fits a definition or not THESE are the real results of 'griefing'.

We can't just shrug it off. It is a real problem that affects the whole game across all three modes. Remember all those posts about how 'solo players are affecting the CG and I can't kill them!' maybe it's just a case of the 'pidgeons coming home to roost' or 'Reaping what you have sown' or... well, fill in your own, you get the idea.

Griefing, by any definition needs to be dealt with.

 

[xkjacob]

Oh wow. A Wikipage. You truly won me over.

Oh wow sarcasm I didn't realize you knew the song of my people.

If you dont like the WIKI arcticles definition then submit an edit.

Also, it is the only definition that has sufficient precision to connect harassment issues to the term I could find.

 

[Leper Messiah]

what about the griefing of a greifer trying to justify their gameplay/griefing? My image of a greifer is either a tweenie/teen fool or, if older, like the fat gimp from the WOW South Park episode.

 

[kapitankev]

Depends on FD harassment policy.
Imagine if 4 people teamed up and perpetually interdicted you, not to kill you, just to harass you.
That may breach FD harassment policies.
Also excessively demanding action from your prey may breach harassment policy for FD.
Those may be grey areas.

Yes repeated Interdictions would be annoying and could possibly be termed griefing....but.....it hardly ever happens or so rarely that it barely justifies fixing. It'd ruin the interdiction part of the game.

 

[StayFrosty]

Greifing is a combination of unintended functionality meets repitition that creates an environment of harassment.

Uh no. Ramming is intended, so are interdictions. You can't blame people for doing it, and that's the first rule of griefing: it's annoying, but it's not forbidden. That's why tackling it is so hard.

As for cheating and verbal harassment, that's not griefing, it's something entirely different, as they could be used for other things than griefing. Don't think I'm minimizing it, it's the opposite. Just like "breaching the EULA" is "breaching the EULA", not griefing.

 

[Leper Messiah]

That is discussed in the EULA.
Ever read it?
Magistificating the topic is not helpful.
Also, specific deletirious behavior is discussed on the forums.
Just like IRL you must seek the law out. Ignorance is not an excuse.
However, the law is knowable within acceptable ranges.

You DO realise laws change and can be created? Just because things are as they are now doesn't mean that's how they should be, hell it used to be illegal to be gay, or for non whites to vote or for women to vote. Laws change and some laws are stupid until changed.

 

[xkjacob]

You didn't ask me to tell you what it said in the EULA. The topic simply asked me to define griefing so I gave you my definition. And there's no such word as "Magistificating". Be clear in your requests or expect random responses.

The topic asked nothing.
Do you see a question mark?
That is a new word synonymous with obsfuscating.
There are new big words made, but not adopted. I still can't believe mcjob is a word.

 

[vjek]

...and/or insulated via NPC's. ..

Not sure what you mean by that.

In short (and there's a lot to this topic) it means any positive or negative player-to-player interaction is passed through NPC's, and/or done via NPC's, and/or done by NPC's.

So, if you want to give someone a gift, you give it to an NPC, and they give it to the other player.
A common example is mail delivery. You go to a postmaster NPC, they deliver the item to the other player.
If you want to attack another player, you pay/bribe/coerce/outfit/grow/hire/raise an NPC, and they do it. More effort/loss/sacrifice/time/money/gold/resources on your part means more attacking goodness on the part of the NPC(s).

Once you insulate player-to-player interactions via NPC's, everyone participates. If you permit them to be direct, fewer customers participate, and that's not good for the longevity of the service. Ideally, you want everyone involved, and NPC insulation permits that.

However, we're off on a bit of a tangent, given the subject of this thread, but I'd be happy to continue the discussion in another thread, or via PM.

 

[StayFrosty]

whether it fits a definition or not THESE are the real results of 'griefing'.

I sometimes call that "being a sore loser".

Sore losers like to point fingers at others rather than admit their inability to deal with the griefer. It's funny how pretty much all griefing situations can be solved by shooting at the griefer. Because it's a sandbox, and things others can do to you, you can do it to them too.

One of the aspects of griefing is that it can't be prevented. Well, others can hardly prevent you from shooting them. Do that and problems go away. Don't just shrug it off, fight back.

 

[xkjacob]

what about the griefing of a greifer trying to justify their gameplay/griefing? My image of a greifer is either a tweenie/teen fool or, if older, like the fat gimp from the WOW South Park episode.

Enforcement of EULA policy is enforcement not greifing. Report breaches of EULA terms and conditions to frontier development.
It isn't your job to enforce the EULA.
If you choose to breach the EULA to enforce the EULA you are in breach of the EULA.
Dont enforce the EULA, report it to FD

 

[Leper Messiah]

Enforcement of EULA policy is enforcement not greifing. Report breaches of EULA terms and conditions to frontier development.
It isn't your job to enforce the EULA.
If you choose to breach the EULA to enforce the EULA you are in breach of the EULA.
Dont enforce the EULA, report it to FD

I do neither I stay the hell away from others wishing to spoil my fun, and have no desire for any sort of human interaction. Others want human interaction though and I empathise with their plight from griefers.

 

[xkjacob]

You DO realise laws change and can be created? Just because things are as they are now doesn't mean that's how they should be, hell it used to be illegal to be gay, or for non whites to vote or for women to vote. Laws change and some laws are stupid until changed.

Comparing a EULA to social justice reform is a stretch. EULA outline product liscence and use. That agreement document is probably here to stay forever.
The terms of a EULA can change and when the change occurs they are obligated to inform you of the terms and you, if you choose to continue with their service, are obligated to accept. However word usage does change over time, but all in all our usage of the word greifer generally relates to exploit based behavior, determined off a standard of acceptable behavior defined by the EULA.
I dont like going to forums so seek out what are or are not exploits. The non combat ramming one for instance. That should be some where more visible instead of buried in some string on the forums.

 

[GlyphGryph]

I laugh at the OP who doesn't know what griefing is.

Here's the real definition of griefing:

Griefing is any activity undertaken solely for the sweet sweet tears it will produce, an action undertaken to fill the target with rage and hollow fury coupled with helpless frustration, that makes them cry and whine futilely until they break.

Griefing is one of the few truly meaningful acts you can take in a game, an activity that extends beyond the virtual world and directly into the minds of another human being. It is power, and impact, and real, meaningful interaction with another human being.

Griefing is the sheer joy of intentionally ruining someone's day. That is the meaning of griefing.

 

[Red Dirt Nurse]

What is griefing, technically? Purely the opinion of the victim.

What is griefing, legally? Whatever the service provider says it is.

IMHO, griefing is when one player, unsolicited, negatively affects the gameplay experience of another player. Yep, it's vague, broad, and covers a huge range of actions. Which is why all player to player interactions should be consensual and/or insulated via NPC's. That would be a game everyone would play.

I'll pay that. Sums it up pretty well, IMHO.

 

[Majinvash]

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.

FD may, if they haven't already, post up something to outline that.

Here are some actions that are not greifing.
- interdicting and killing you in open.
- killing you while you mine in an RES.
- killing you in a conflict zone.
- killing you when you are not wanted and have no cargo.
- ramming you after initiating combat.
- dropping out the bottom for a commodity.

Here are some things that are.
- ramming you, especially when mail slotting
- using cheats while playing to have an unfair advantage while playing.
- repeatedly verbally harassing (hint use ignore function)
- interdicting you repeatedly. (There is a cool down of course, so this may not be an issue)
- interdicting you, telling you to release your cargo then making you fly through your cargo to rub your ships face in it because your ship is a bad bad ship look what it has done to pretty outer space.

So, if you post saying "I haz the beh grief" and your description of greifing matches the activities or behaviors of NPCs.. Then you were not griefed. You were destroyed via valid game play design.

If you want greater consequences for you being killed speak up, but greifing in itself is a mixture of exploit meets harassment or unintended feature meets repetition.
General rule of thumb, if an NPC can do it, it isn't greifing.

The only things in your list that break ANY of the FD rules are.

The cheats and verbal harassment.

Everything else is just stuff players don't like and don't want.

Rather than learn how to counter, they call it griefing.

The station ramming is currently an allowed game play mechanic, no matter how lame it is or how much people hate it.
It is being patched out with the speed limit, then you can still station ram.. Just slowly...

 

[xkjacob]

The only things in your list that break ANY of the FD rules are.

The cheats and verbal harassment.

Everything else is just stuff players don't like and don't want.

Rather than learn how to counter, they call it griefing.

The station ramming is currently an allowed game play mechanic, no matter how lame it is or how much people hate it.
It is being patched out with the speed limit, then you can still station ram.. Just slowly...

A gameplay mechanic does not need to be released before your behavior change takes effect. A EULA outlines your acceptable behavior the incoming patch communicated the issue. Your response should be to mitigate the behavior.
The 'slower speed' of ramming also significantly lessens the damage and may have an effect of not killing you.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll pay that. Sums it up pretty well, IMHO.

By that logic if I have slow internet and you join my instance and it negatively impacts you because of the lag I just griefed you.
Lacks any meaningful precision.

 

[vjek]

... By that logic if I have slow internet and you join my instance and it negatively impacts you because of the lag I just greifed you.
Lacks any meaningful precision.

Peer-to-Peer is unsuitable for persistent multiplayer online games, and FDEV is reaping the consequences of their poor design decision. (re: ... I have slow internet and you join my instance ... )

 

[xkjacob]

Peer-to-Peer is unsuitable for persistent multiplayer online games, and FDEV is reaping the consequences of their poor design decision. (re: ... I have slow internet and you join my instance ... )

Peer to peer has worked fine for a long time and been used poorly for a long time.
Now FD has an issue of literal data stored in memory that makes cheating crazy easy, but ED p2p design is not too much at fault here.
You are confusing your responsibilities as the user of the product. You can't run this on an 85htz Pentium I with 56k. You can't run server managed processes like WOW with that equipment.
Just because ED has higher requirements to run does not change the responsibility to acquire sufficient hardware and connectivity as the user's responsibility. Same rules as WOW.

 

[Sandmann]

The topic asked nothing.
Do you see a question mark?
That is a new word synonymous with obsfuscating.
There are new big words made, but not adopted. I still can't believe mcjob is a word.

Did I see a question mark? I see a lot of stuff on the internet. Much of it is ridiculous. This thread contains much that confirms that observation.

 

[Geers]

That is a new word synonymous with obsfuscating.

When I googled it the only result was THIS thread.