Elite / Frontier What is it?
- Thread starter rexdino5
- Start date
Here what old liar has to say on the subject
Its a sequel to this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Encounters
Which was a sequel to this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier:_Elite_II
Which was a loose sequel to this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_(video_game)
replace 'world' with 'galaxy' and you probably have it... no one knows what exactly will be in it, but its a safe bet it'll have all those and more. if you're curious, why not try one of the old ones, or FFED3D update, its not like it'll cost you anything to get a copy of any of them at this point.
This, and, as long as all the good stuff from it's two last prequels doesn't get discarded in the name of making it more "streamlined", "accessible", or an MMO, it has potential to be the best space-sim ever.Here what old liar has to say on the subject
Its a sequel to this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Encounters
Which was a sequel to this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier:_Elite_II
Which was a loose sequel to this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_(video_game)
Thats pretty much how I see it, No time compression will be a bit restrictive but I'm sure their can be workarounds.
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a real hard headed guy
So that we could take our time staring for days into a still starfield?
The most excellent idea - I approve!
Oh, so not "the only thing" after all, but inconspicuously bundled with copious alterations to spaceflight mechanics, pacing and scaling?
So much for your strawman.
The only things that can be declared the only things to be ever discarded in any circumstances are orphan features (stuff thrown in, but not really connected to anything - Frontier's unimplemented "SOS" option, for example), and end features (ones that influence the game, but not serve as a base for anything else - Frontier's energy bomb, for example). Time compression just happens to be neither in this case (though, for example, it was an end-feature in Homeworld: Cataclysm, one which was very useful and obvious improvement, but wouldn't really hurt the core game if removed), - it's core mechanics in FE2 and FFE (and any self respecting simulator), as everything in those games happens at vastly different timescales and any meaningful gameplay depends on player being able to switch between those timescales and cut out the vast periods of inactivity.
You have fun playing the fool? Of course time compression must be replaced by FTL. We have discussed this before and in detail elswhere, haven't we?
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hard headet
where's the difference you think?
i can't see any, i stay with DraQ.
and in despite of repeating myself, i dislike ftl, you won't need hyperspace and technology behind can't be seen by me.
after all it would make everything more complicated to calculate speed and relative time of all objects compared to jumps and stardreamer
how many times ftl 1x, 2x, 3x? what effect on time diletation it would have, how to solve, a time machine? if we have we wouldn't need space ships, just giant "time/stargates". like a projected "beam", leads me to if we had such technology it would be possible to move anywhere in anytime, generate any imageable substance directly from energy, cause it would only depend on the right information to reconstruct it. in other words boring, like when we as children playing in the real sandbox, came to an end when you can't overtop the other cause it get's senseless using superpowers, you remember?
ftl, is not only a solution in a game it's a logical problem
fiction should be only the story; to explain, last night i was waching star trek tos, one episode terrans and klingons was kidnapped by a lifeform which is feedet by aggression, that's fiction. but a good one.
where's the difference you think?
i can't see any, i stay with DraQ.
and in despite of repeating myself, i dislike ftl, you won't need hyperspace and technology behind can't be seen by me.
after all it would make everything more complicated to calculate speed and relative time of all objects compared to jumps and stardreamer
how many times ftl 1x, 2x, 3x? what effect on time diletation it would have, how to solve, a time machine? if we have we wouldn't need space ships, just giant "time/stargates". like a projected "beam", leads me to if we had such technology it would be possible to move anywhere in anytime, generate any imageable substance directly from energy, cause it would only depend on the right information to reconstruct it. in other words boring, like when we as children playing in the real sandbox, came to an end when you can't overtop the other cause it get's senseless using superpowers, you remember?
ftl, is not only a solution in a game it's a logical problem
fiction should be only the story; to explain, last night i was waching star trek tos, one episode terrans and klingons was kidnapped by a lifeform which is feedet by aggression, that's fiction. but a good one.
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You will certainly need to remove star dreamer time accelleration if you want online play. If everyone is zipping around in their own time frame you'll never be able to sync up to a server.
So chances are, if its online you wont have a 'stardreamer' in E4... Unless you rethought from the ground up somehow how you would handle multiplayer, something which includes 4 dimensional player handling. but as any online player knows, it can be hard enough for a stable experience to work in just 3 dimensions.
and people complain enough about newtonian phys (if E4 will even have this), let alone let them wrestle with relativity.
(And i realise we're talking about player induced time dilation via stardreamer, rather than anything Einsteinian)
The obvious solution if you dont want to stare into space for weeks on end or make your multiplayer mode completely baffling. is to have a really accurate FTL - and btw, anything going faster than light must be sidestepping relativity somehow so it completely gets around that issue. Or at least we'll assume that it has, so forget about time dilation, or mass increase or any of that.
IF you're close enough so your destination is no more than 30 mins real-time flight away then you don't have to worry about any of this. You could still have the option of real time flight, but i would imagine that you'd jump within-system.
If you didn't want to jump, then well we have another scifi concept that could save us... perhaps a warp drive like in star trek would be advantageous for interplanetary travel (which afaik, is not a *proper* ftl.. hmm. have to ask a proper trekkie about that) you would feel like you're flying in stardreamer, but within a warp bubble that protects you from timedialation.. so you're just going really, really fast in the same time frame - and to an outside observer, you would zip off into the distance like the enterprise as you engaged the warp engines.
So i guess thats really the best way, if you want a MMO to feel like frontier... jump between systems and warp when in system until you're close enough to fly in real time on sublight engines. That way it takes the same amount of effort as before, plays and feels the same - the warp controls could be exactly the same as stardreamer for example and require use of thrusters to push the warp bubble / ship. but everything is kept in a nice neat consistent time frame. so essentially it could be exactly like stardreamer, but without time accelleration.
So chances are, if its online you wont have a 'stardreamer' in E4... Unless you rethought from the ground up somehow how you would handle multiplayer, something which includes 4 dimensional player handling. but as any online player knows, it can be hard enough for a stable experience to work in just 3 dimensions.
and people complain enough about newtonian phys (if E4 will even have this), let alone let them wrestle with relativity.
(And i realise we're talking about player induced time dilation via stardreamer, rather than anything Einsteinian)
The obvious solution if you dont want to stare into space for weeks on end or make your multiplayer mode completely baffling. is to have a really accurate FTL - and btw, anything going faster than light must be sidestepping relativity somehow so it completely gets around that issue. Or at least we'll assume that it has, so forget about time dilation, or mass increase or any of that.
IF you're close enough so your destination is no more than 30 mins real-time flight away then you don't have to worry about any of this. You could still have the option of real time flight, but i would imagine that you'd jump within-system.
If you didn't want to jump, then well we have another scifi concept that could save us... perhaps a warp drive like in star trek would be advantageous for interplanetary travel (which afaik, is not a *proper* ftl.. hmm. have to ask a proper trekkie about that) you would feel like you're flying in stardreamer, but within a warp bubble that protects you from timedialation.. so you're just going really, really fast in the same time frame - and to an outside observer, you would zip off into the distance like the enterprise as you engaged the warp engines.
So i guess thats really the best way, if you want a MMO to feel like frontier... jump between systems and warp when in system until you're close enough to fly in real time on sublight engines. That way it takes the same amount of effort as before, plays and feels the same - the warp controls could be exactly the same as stardreamer for example and require use of thrusters to push the warp bubble / ship. but everything is kept in a nice neat consistent time frame. so essentially it could be exactly like stardreamer, but without time accelleration.
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http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1212&page=16
A suggestion is there, and is then explained again about 5 times in various ways, for "certain reasons"....
you mean get around the problem with a server bubble kinda thing? Yeah i imagine thats how it'll work, a bit like Test Drive unlimited or something similar.
But, assuming you all make it into the same timeframe you still have problems with syncing between players, what if one guy activates stardreamer when you're not ready? you would just have to disable it while in mp and we're back in the same situation... 8 or 16 or whatever players now have to crawl around the system separately by themselves, or organise to do something together and possibly be able to use stardreamer.. I just don't see how it would work or how thats really a solution, you're just taking a problem that affects one player and using it to affect several at a time, but then also they're all limited within that space so you have a further problem.
besides that, i don't want to fly in a small organised group who can't meet anyone else because they aren't in the same time frame. I guess it works if you're meeting hordes of AI pilots and you have a good team, and want to play like that. but if its MMO, i'd like to be meeting real people and not AI's... Effectively, i could only meet people in my group, who presumably i've already organised over IM or whatever to meet up, or i would have to talk to in game in order to do something together, by ourselves. sounds nearly as sad as a single player.
elite for me is about being a loner on the frontier, one vs the rest... as crafty as this solution is, i think the solution using warp and / or more precise jumps is way better, i know that would actually work as it totally sidesteps those issues and you could have players slipping seamlessly in and out of your bubble to attack you or whatever... It would feel just like frontier except that you don't eat the calender to fly to places meaning you have just as much freedom in mp as sp.
But, assuming you all make it into the same timeframe you still have problems with syncing between players, what if one guy activates stardreamer when you're not ready? you would just have to disable it while in mp and we're back in the same situation... 8 or 16 or whatever players now have to crawl around the system separately by themselves, or organise to do something together and possibly be able to use stardreamer.. I just don't see how it would work or how thats really a solution, you're just taking a problem that affects one player and using it to affect several at a time, but then also they're all limited within that space so you have a further problem.
besides that, i don't want to fly in a small organised group who can't meet anyone else because they aren't in the same time frame. I guess it works if you're meeting hordes of AI pilots and you have a good team, and want to play like that. but if its MMO, i'd like to be meeting real people and not AI's... Effectively, i could only meet people in my group, who presumably i've already organised over IM or whatever to meet up, or i would have to talk to in game in order to do something together, by ourselves. sounds nearly as sad as a single player.
elite for me is about being a loner on the frontier, one vs the rest... as crafty as this solution is, i think the solution using warp and / or more precise jumps is way better, i know that would actually work as it totally sidesteps those issues and you could have players slipping seamlessly in and out of your bubble to attack you or whatever... It would feel just like frontier except that you don't eat the calender to fly to places meaning you have just as much freedom in mp as sp.
Sounds like you guys want World Of Warcraft in space. Their system for getting people playing real people whilst still having quests and NPCs seems to be the way to go. You have to throw out FTL time compression and all that, but since whatever we postulate is nonsense that gets in the way of the gameplay, we can safely ignore it.
For me, E4 would be a MMORPG cross between X-Wing and WoW. Everything is real time, no time dilation or anything like that, you jump instantly to a system using some McGuffin similar to Witchspace. Each system is a seperate server, virtual or otherwise, and the lucky visitor can fly around that area without effecting the game outside the system but interact with all the real players inside it. Fly around, meet friends, fight and trade in real time, and at the station you can bank, trade, send messages or upgrade your ship.
Should you take up a mission or 'quest' that requires several people, you could do it by making the quest in such a way that you go to a seperate instance with no other real players except those you came with. There you would battle the NPCs to win or lose, then return to a normal system with your loot. If you wanted to get together in a 'real' system with a bunch of mates and go pirating as a band, then that's fine too. NPC cops could try and take you out, or they could offer rewards and bountys so that real people took up the challenge. Thargoid invasions could be massive, and the message would go out to all nearby worlds for players to come and assist.
Doesn't that sound dandy? And do-able.
For me, E4 would be a MMORPG cross between X-Wing and WoW. Everything is real time, no time dilation or anything like that, you jump instantly to a system using some McGuffin similar to Witchspace. Each system is a seperate server, virtual or otherwise, and the lucky visitor can fly around that area without effecting the game outside the system but interact with all the real players inside it. Fly around, meet friends, fight and trade in real time, and at the station you can bank, trade, send messages or upgrade your ship.
Should you take up a mission or 'quest' that requires several people, you could do it by making the quest in such a way that you go to a seperate instance with no other real players except those you came with. There you would battle the NPCs to win or lose, then return to a normal system with your loot. If you wanted to get together in a 'real' system with a bunch of mates and go pirating as a band, then that's fine too. NPC cops could try and take you out, or they could offer rewards and bountys so that real people took up the challenge. Thargoid invasions could be massive, and the message would go out to all nearby worlds for players to come and assist.
Doesn't that sound dandy? And do-able.
I expect it'll be something like that... though a literal cross of xwing and wow is a terrifying thing to comprehend and I hope its really nothing like that How impressive this mp mode is will depend a lot on whether there will even be dedicated servers, most xbox and playstation games, least the ones i own, use peer to peer, which brings a whole host (sorry) of stability / reliability problems and restricts the size of games to not often more than 16, sometimes even less, operation flashpoint for example only supported 8 players due to its complexity and that was just 1 island. same for test drive unlimited which was touted as massively online - technically you were connected to hundreds of people, only 8 appearing in your local server at a time. you can support more players on a dedicated server, but this means the inevitable subscription model which not everyone likes, but i guess we'd all be expecting a subscription model at this point?
How impressive this mp mode is will depend a lot on whether there will even be dedicated servers, most xbox and playstation games, least the ones i own, use peer to peer, which brings a whole host (sorry) of stability / reliability problems and restricts the size of games to not often more than 16, sometimes even less, operation flashpoint for example only supported 8 players due to its complexity and that was just 1 island. same for test drive unlimited which was touted as massively online - technically you were connected to hundreds of people, only 8 appearing in your local server at a time. you can support more players on a dedicated server, but this means the inevitable subscription model which not everyone likes, but i guess we'd all be expecting a subscription model at this point?I cant see it being anything other than a subscription model, to be honest. It's worked big for WoW and Eve Online, and probably the only way to fund the necessary hardware. It should be nowhere near as complex as Wow or battlefront though, it's 99% empty space and all you're sorting out is the spacial coordinates of the punters on the server. You've not got interaction issues or maps to make like those games. I'd think a server could handle plenty of players in a server where there's only 3 bits of scenery and nothing else to work on except the players.
Dont even mention peer to peer nonsense, it just wasted CoD:MW2 for all the PC players.
Dont even mention peer to peer nonsense, it just wasted CoD:MW2 for all the PC players.
MMO would mean a lot more change to then then drop time compression.
FTL is a change. It could influence gameplay emchanics.
SP to MMO influence core game mechanics to.
It would become a flavor off Eve.
But a MMO is a total different kind of beast. That wouldn't count for a sequel. More the first "Elite Online" MMO.
A True sequal must have a SP. where Mplay and Coöp are optional extended features to the Elite concept of the older games.
FTL is a change. It could influence gameplay emchanics.
SP to MMO influence core game mechanics to.
It would become a flavor off Eve.
But a MMO is a total different kind of beast. That wouldn't count for a sequel. More the first "Elite Online" MMO.
A True sequal must have a SP. where Mplay and Coöp are optional extended features to the Elite concept of the older games.
In spirit the MMO version of Elite would still be single-player Elite, but with real people flying the other ships. PC's instead of NPCs, basically. It need not change out of recognition.