What is the design goal with random NPC gankers Frontier?

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

Holy **** this forum

Just when I thought it couldn't get any more pathetic, this thread shows up. Honestly, you could replace most of this place with videos of anguished, impotent screaming and still not lose any of its content.

Amazing

 

[Bortas]

It's stupid though. There is nothing to gain for the attacker. Exploded ships gain them nothing.

That's not true any more... exploded ships provide materials needed for engineering. The NPC probably needed some mechanical scrap and as he didn't find any in the USS he took the opportunity of you coincidentally being there to gather some from the debris of your ship instead

 

[B1rdy]

If you read the Elite lore it makes a crapload of sense. 'gankers' are far more common in the elite universe than people here like to admit. Space is very big, SysAuth is on a tight budget and can barely keep stations clear. As a consequence there is a rich tradition of bored teen psychopath murderers and thrill seekers.

And those pyschopaths happen to be multi millionaires?

- - - Updated - - -

If you read the Elite lore it makes a crapload of sense. 'gankers' are far more common in the elite universe than people here like to admit. Space is very big, SysAuth is on a tight budget and can barely keep stations clear. As a consequence there is a rich tradition of bored teen psychopath murderers and thrill seekers.

And those pyschopaths happen to be multi millionaires?

 

[Breakspear]

It's not like the NPCs are hard to kill/Evade since they got nerfed back to the pre 2.1 state, thanks to many people on here who got so offended by it.

Secondly, as many people have mentioned, what the hell were you doing going to a USS with a full hold? Idiot thing to do.

 

[Siranui]

Here's an example where the basic design choices really mystify me.

I spent a hours mining for Engineering materials. I headed back to dock, to swap away from the mining ship, but near the station I noticed an USS, listed threat lvl 0, I believe. "Encrypted emissions". I drop in to take a look, scoop up the material fragment, and scan the beacon in the wreckage. As I'm about to leave, an NPC vulture drops in. "Now you die victim!".

Just one of the many senseless NPC gankers that populate the game. I'd like to hear what the designers think they are adding to the game.

a) What is the NPC supposedly trying to do?

b) How is this making the game more satisfying and fun for the player?

***

In this case I was in a mining ship, in a high security system where I'm allied with the controlling faction. I was also very close to the primary station. By all accounts I should have been in safe waters.

Not only do encounters like this break the suspension of disbelief and scream "It's just a game, nothing matters or makes sense", but would getting my mining ship blown up and losing the cargo really have added something?

As it happens, I managed to wrestle the Cobra mk IV out of there, and beat the interdiction when the NPC ganker naturally followed me into cruise. I just hate the idea of that happening to less combat ready players, especially those new to the game. This is a bad design guys. [blah]

It was a trap; someone has a price on your head.
It was a genuine space-murderer.
It was a friend of the guy in the wrecked ship, who sees you as either responsible or to be desecrating a grave.
It was a pirate who just wants to sift your 'combat aftermath'.
It was a terrorist.

RP your own explanation, but these 'random encounters' add a bit of excitement. Sometimes people come on the forum to complain about them, sometimes they come on to tell us what a great adventure they had, wrestling the scan away from unexpected problems.

 

[Uchuu]

Perhaps the ones that just go "now you die victim", have been SDC crew members?

 

[Jack Schitt]

Now, if the mechanics were there for me to be properly affiliated with the controlling faction it could be different. If such a deadly ambush was an attempt to remove a powerful ally of them, then it would make sense. A pure "I'll blow you up for lols" makes none what so ever.

The thing is, as with a lot of NPC interaction this should be trivial to fake. While I'm sure we'd all love to see the multi-level tier-ranking semi-persistent NPCs as discussed in the DDA, adding that level of complexity to the game now is probably beyond the scope of what FD have planned for at least the next couple of years. But NPC text comms based on faction "allegiance" seems like one of those easy wins:

• Keep a local record of player rep increases due to {activity}

• Trading
• Missions
• Bounties
• UC data sales

• If rep increases beyond a {threshold} in a given {time_frame}, flag it and store the {faction_name}

• The next time a "terrorist" NPC spawns

• Check the NPC is of a rival faction
• Generate a custom comms string:
  
  "I see you've been doing a lot of {activity} for {faction_name}, CMDR. My paymasters don't appreciate it..."​
• Adjust trigger {threshold} and/or {time_frame} depending on the outcome of the fight, and reset some or all records.

This isn't difficult. I was doing stuff like this with DATA statements and string slicing in Sinclair BASIC three decades ago, so the idea that it's too much of a challenge for an outfit like FD is ridiculous.

OK, with a lot of moving about and a dense population of systems this could result in a fair chunk of extra data for the client to store, but we're not running on BBC Micros any more. It's all stored, processed and handled locally so until there's a need to share NPCs with other players there's no network overhead. It's pure fakery designed to add that slight suspension of disbelief that there's something going on beyond the random spawning of NPCs, and the amazing thing is that stuff like this actually works even when players know it's all fake. The human mind has an amazing capacity for self-delusion. All it needs is the occasional nudge in the right direction to stop it wanting to look behind the curtain.

Sometimes I feel that FD must be ignoring these "easy wins" because they don't want to waste time adding more band-aids and placeholders when they could be concentrating on core mechanics. That's fair enough in theory, but when those placeholders are likely to be there for months if not years, I'd argue that they should be measuring merit in terms of player satisfaction and not in terms of "wasted" developer effort. If just a handful of players smile ironically at the output of the comms window rather than cursing "RNGesus" for the nth time, I'd consider that a small victory. But maybe that's just me.

 

[MadMikesch]

I'm rolling on the floor laughing. This community here is incredible.

Ok, serios now.
Frontier lied to us all the years. There is no Solo, Group or Open. It's all the same. In Solo and Group you can't see if it is a real player or a NPC.
@OP It was me shooting at you.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Holy **** this forum

I'm rolling on the floor laughing. This community here is incredible.

You fellers seem to have a problem with sample size and extrapolating that to the whole.

So here's something to consider. Both of you are part of "this forum" and "this community"

My advice is: stop being so harsh on yourselves, you're not as pathetic as you claim you are.

Your resident forum hugmeister,

Ziggy.

 

[babelfisch]

Just played the Witcher and got attacked by random bandits. Couldn't even offer them money so they leave me alone, the game is clearly broken.

 

[CMDR Mini]

The NPC are griefing me !!!!!
Please Frontier do something Q_Q

 

[Deleted member 115407]

As it happens, I managed to wrestle the Cobra mk IV out of there, and beat the interdiction when the NPC ganker naturally followed me into cruise. I just hate the idea of that happening to less combat ready players, especially those new to the game. This is a bad design guys. [blah]

Or you could look at it another way, OP. The "less combat-ready" player you're speaking of just learned to be more combat-ready. Or at least to have the foresight to know that it's dangerous out there in space, and that complacency kills.

 

[timbero]

Spoiler

Here's an example where the basic design choices really mystify me.

I spent a hours mining for Engineering materials. I headed back to dock, to swap away from the mining ship, but near the station I noticed an USS, listed threat lvl 0, I believe. "Encrypted emissions". I drop in to take a look, scoop up the material fragment, and scan the beacon in the wreckage. As I'm about to leave, an NPC vulture drops in. "Now you die victim!".

Just one of the many senseless NPC gankers that populate the game. I'd like to hear what the designers think they are adding to the game.

a) What is the NPC supposedly trying to do?

b) How is this making the game more satisfying and fun for the player?

***

In this case I was in a mining ship, in a high security system where I'm allied with the controlling faction. I was also very close to the primary station. By all accounts I should have been in safe waters.

Not only do encounters like this break the suspension of disbelief and scream "It's just a game, nothing matters or makes sense", but would getting my mining ship blown up and losing the cargo really have added something?

As it happens, I managed to wrestle the Cobra mk IV out of there, and beat the interdiction when the NPC ganker naturally followed me into cruise. I just hate the idea of that happening to less combat ready players, especially those new to the game. This is a bad design guys. [blah]

"Give me your cargo, I have travelled a long way for it" - But sir, you haven't even scanned my cargohold, you don't know what's in there! How do you know I haven't sold it at the last station or ditched it in space?

"That bounty is mine!" - But sir, I'm clean in this system, and you haven't even scanned me for my bounties! How do you know!?!?

Fighting with another player is always a hoot too, not only do you have to contend with a dangerous-elite cmdr, you might get an elite anaconda NPC that drops in magically and wants to fight. I have interdicted other players to have an Elite Anaconda take their place when we drop in the instance, so you start shooting the wrong target, WHAT!? You're not the one I interdicted! And the player you actually interdicted is off to the side somewhere.

Another grand thing is if you interdict PP ships for undermining, no ships around for 500+ ls in the system, but 10 seconds after you drop in 3-4 security ships magically drops in. How the hell did they get here so fast!?

 

[captain kitty]

Here's an example where the basic design choices really mystify me.

I spent a hours mining for Engineering materials. I headed back to dock, to swap away from the mining ship, but near the station I noticed an USS, listed threat lvl 0, I believe. "Encrypted emissions". I drop in to take a look, scoop up the material fragment, and scan the beacon in the wreckage. As I'm about to leave, an NPC vulture drops in. "Now you die victim!".

Just one of the many senseless NPC gankers that populate the game. I'd like to hear what the designers think they are adding to the game.

a) What is the NPC supposedly trying to do?

b) How is this making the game more satisfying and fun for the player?

***

In this case I was in a mining ship, in a high security system where I'm allied with the controlling faction. I was also very close to the primary station. By all accounts I should have been in safe waters.

Not only do encounters like this break the suspension of disbelief and scream "It's just a game, nothing matters or makes sense", but would getting my mining ship blown up and losing the cargo really have added something?

As it happens, I managed to wrestle the Cobra mk IV out of there, and beat the interdiction when the NPC ganker naturally followed me into cruise. I just hate the idea of that happening to less combat ready players, especially thosenew to the game. This is a bad design guys. [blah]

Omg not everyone in space is a good guy justv like not everyone in the ocean would be either. There's nothing unbelievable or immersion breaking to be attached by random thieves and murderers. Space is a wild frontier like the wild West. Grow up guys and learn to play the game! If you can't escape or beat the super easy uber nerfed NPCs in game still I'd suggest you actually put some time into learning you're doing then.

 

[Kyokushin]

Here's an example where the basic design choices really mystify me.

I spent a hours mining for Engineering materials. I headed back to dock, to swap away from the mining ship, but near the station I noticed an USS, listed threat lvl 0, I believe. "Encrypted emissions". I drop in to take a look, scoop up the material fragment, and scan the beacon in the wreckage. As I'm about to leave, an NPC vulture drops in. "Now you die victim!".

Just one of the many senseless NPC gankers that populate the game. I'd like to hear what the designers think they are adding to the game.

a) What is the NPC supposedly trying to do?

b) How is this making the game more satisfying and fun for the player?

***

In this case I was in a mining ship, in a high security system where I'm allied with the controlling faction. I was also very close to the primary station. By all accounts I should have been in safe waters.

Not only do encounters like this break the suspension of disbelief and scream "It's just a game, nothing matters or makes sense", but would getting my mining ship blown up and losing the cargo really have added something?

As it happens, I managed to wrestle the Cobra mk IV out of there, and beat the interdiction when the NPC ganker naturally followed me into cruise. I just hate the idea of that happening to less combat ready players, especially those new to the game. This is a bad design guys. [blah]

Go to no-go-zone in RL and ask citizens "why they are ganking?" Then you will get all your answers.

Their reason should not intersts You. Maybe NPC have in-game bounty for you, or they just do not like a colour of your ship.
Now you have choice, fight, run, play space engine.

When i am attacking random players then they was whining about 'no reason' and i am writting nothing. So i started pasting them NPC text. "Die victim!"... then only what i can see is an example of some kind cloacking device used by only player commanders (anyone where i can get that mod? engineer? some shipyard?).

Player cannot collect materials from player, but if player can from NPC and player cannot from a player, then answer is simple. NPC just want to collect materials from You (and he have right for that). You are just his content. Face it.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

It adds a challenge. It means you need to always have an idea of how to escape unexpected encounters.

- - - Updated - - -



If you read the Elite lore it makes a crapload of sense. 'gankers' are far more common in the elite universe than people here like to admit. Space is very big, SysAuth is on a tight budget and can barely keep stations clear. As a consequence there is a rich tradition of bored teen psychopath murderers and thrill seekers.

It doesn't make any sense. If traffic everywhere was so dangerous and psychos were all about - traffic wouldn't really happen. Trade would be run in convoys on limited routes and loads of planets and colonies would have been shut down because they couldn't be sustained.
Also, what would cause this mental affliction to destroy random ships for no gain? If that is the lore it is indeed a crapload of nonsense.

 

[Jukelo]

There are NPCs explicitely designed to kill you. They're not supposed to be gaining anything from it except the thrill of killing you. It's not like psychopaths are something new or exclusive to the third millenium.

 

[Adept]

I think plenty of people see the problem, I certainly do and it's incredibly immersion breaking. Every encounter with an NPC feels like a mini-game. Given that the whole architecture of the game is built around this instancing mechanic however, I don't think this problem is going to go anywhere in a hurry.

Well here's hoping. More so than ship and income balance, I think the shallow NPC interaction is the weakest link in the game currently.

- - - Updated - - -

It sounds like an NPC generated to relieve you of your goods. Those are the only ones that will chase you in SC. Once generated they will also follow you if you drop. You probably missed the "tasty cargo" message.

Yes, the simulation of NPC behaviour leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe I'm just strange but I can accept limitations in the game because devs can't do everything. At least not while they're trying to deliver commander creators and atmospheric planets, and ... etc. I can hope they get around to paying NPCs some attention. I can also complain that their priorities are borked. But complaining about one thing when I know they're doing other things seems counterproductive.

I don't think it's counterproductive personally, I think it's feedback. I've been on the other side of the developer / gamer divide, and I know how easy it is to think that everything is "good enough for now".

The whole "tasty cargo" stuff is ok, (I don't think it happened here) but they need to then try and get the cargo, rather than just trying to blow the player up. The NPCs have dead eye aim, so having them go for the cargo hatch, or actually use those limpets they carry so often would be just the thing.

They need to be trying to rob you, not murder you. When it's an attempt to kill, it should have a reason.

But I know I'm preaching to the choir here.

 

[Julio Montega]

Well here's hoping. More so than ship and income balance, I think the shallow NPC interaction is the weakest link in the game currently.

- - - Updated - - -



I don't think it's counterproductive personally, I think it's feedback. I've been on the other side of the developer / gamer divide, and I know how easy it is to think that everything is "good enough for now".

The whole "tasty cargo" stuff is ok, (I don't think it happened here) but they need to then try and get the cargo, rather than just trying to blow the player up. The NPCs have dead eye aim, so having them go for the cargo hatch, or actually use those limpets they carry so often would be just the thing.

They need to be trying to rob you, not murder you. When it's an attempt to kill, it should have a reason.

But I know I'm preaching to the choir here.

I totally agree on the interaction with NPCs being shallow.
They lack personality, which can be simulated by adding more
"psych profiles" to their routines.
But the biggest gripe is the lack of means of comms with NPCs,
like this 'rat here would love to send his demands to them, so they drop cargo,
without me gaining a fine, due to my pirate rep.

 

[Adept]

"Give me your cargo, I have travelled a long way for it" - But sir, you haven't even scanned my cargohold, you don't know what's in there! How do you know I haven't sold it at the last station or ditched it in space?

"That bounty is mine!" - But sir, I'm clean in this system, and you haven't even scanned me for my bounties! How do you know!?!?

Fighting with another player is always a hoot too, not only do you have to contend with a dangerous-elite cmdr, you might get an elite anaconda NPC that drops in magically and wants to fight. I have interdicted other players to have an Elite Anaconda take their place when we drop in the instance, so you start shooting the wrong target, WHAT!? You're not the one I interdicted! And the player you actually interdicted is off to the side somewhere.

Another grand thing is if you interdict PP ships for undermining, no ships around for 500+ ls in the system, but 10 seconds after you drop in 3-4 security ships magically drops in. How the hell did they get here so fast!?

Indeed, all of this. Hopefully there are a ton of enhancement tickets in the Elite Dangerous JIRA waiting to be added to a sprint.