This is a very real, but very strange and also worrying possibility (at least for modern games). You can also tell that processing is somehow bound to the framerate if you go to the main menu with FPS capped at different values - at 30 FPS the scene and the details will load in slower than at higher FPS.
What is the Point of Manticore’s Oppressor?
- Thread starter CMDR The Riz
- Start date
It's those Burst Lasers - they make everything confusing!
Yeah that really needs to be a number, not a bar.
As someone who regularly uses the wrong type of damage all the time - guilty as charged!
While certainly a novel idea, I don't believe this would help solve the usability issues that the Oppressor currently faces.
...Wait, really? That's... concerning.
I'll confess up front that I'm not at all knowledgeable about how game engines function, but I know just enough programming to make a fool of myself (pointers are still computer magic to me!). In my limited experience creating a desktop app in Java a few years back I recall that mouse inputs to an application window were handled via Events (which, IIRC, should be handled as interrupts) instead of a fixed polling rate...
...so I'm left wondering why Elite would utilize a polling rate instead of an interrupt. To tie this back to Elite and specifically Odyssey, this does impact the P-15's TTK as it is semiautomatic - that 2.40 second bodyshot TTK is only possible if you manage to fire it at 10 rounds per second. That might not be possible if this hypothesis is correct.
I should measure how many shots I can fire in a second with the P-15 and plug that into the calculator to get a more realistic TTK...
Elite: Dangerous in general has traditionally had a bunch of stuff linked to game frame rate, from ship menu animations (though I think they fixed that) to hyperspace load times.
This isn't unusual, but tying anything to renderer frame rate in a modern game is.
Me neither, but polling/tick rates bound to processing sounds like stuff from either 20 years ago like Counterstrike's polling rate and the Q3's engine propensity to work slightly "better" at various capped FPS values (43, 76, 125, 250, 333, etc.) or the really old systems where the game's timing was built around the processor's clock speed.
Two months later and I'm finally back with the Calculator v2!
Since we received confirmation from the Community Managers on the latest Frameshift Live stream that work on Update 12 is ongoing, I feel like now is the best time to revive / have this discussion in the hopes that someone important sees this so that any Oppressor buffs make it into Update 12.
But before I begin, I'd like to extend my gratitude to De_Toqueville and the folks behind the Elite Dangerous Odyssey Material Helper for collecting and providing the data on weapon reload, stow and ready times. It would have taken me far longer to get this done without their help
Now, here's a link to the v2 Calculator:
docs.google.com
As before, if you'd like to play around with the Calculator:
Some major changes from the previous version:
Anyway, here are the updated Point-Blank and 35 m charts:
Some observations:
Source: https://youtu.be/neLP2EuPBxw
Source: https://youtu.be/IoKWRroH1Co
The weapons used in those videos:
G5 Oppressor:
Clearly I had a easier time with the AR-50 than the Oppressor, to the point where I could effortlessly shoot an incoming grenade out of the air.
In conclusion, I reiterate my earlier recommendations for the Oppressor:
I'd also like to ask for a general projectile velocity and rifle-class Effective Range buff, as there are a few Settlement layouts like the one above with these long sightlines that don't make sense with the current velocities and Effective Ranges. In fact, I might just make a massive Odyssey combat overhaul thread with this new calculator...
Since we received confirmation from the Community Managers on the latest Frameshift Live stream that work on Update 12 is ongoing, I feel like now is the best time to revive / have this discussion in the hopes that someone important sees this so that any Oppressor buffs make it into Update 12.
But before I begin, I'd like to extend my gratitude to De_Toqueville and the folks behind the Elite Dangerous Odyssey Material Helper for collecting and providing the data on weapon reload, stow and ready times. It would have taken me far longer to get this done without their help
Now, here's a link to the v2 Calculator:
Oppressor TTK Calculator v2.xlsx
As before, if you'd like to play around with the Calculator:
Some major changes from the previous version:
- Weapon magazine size is taken into account when calculating the final TTK, and is able to detect when multiple reloads are required to achieve a kill.
- TTKs zero-second start point was moved to the first shot rather than before the first shot (read: I was missing a -1); before this change an extra shot refire time was added to the final TTK which was most noticeable on the L-6.
- Weapon stow / ready times are factored into the TTKs of the Eclipse / AR-50, Aphelion / AR-50 and Zenith / AR-50 TTKs (Not all of them were symmetrical)
- The Intimidator has a brand-new Intimidator Sim to help calculate just how many pellets are needed to break the shield and how many damage the Suit underneath, though it is still subject to the single-bolt bug assumption for simplicity. This was the primary holdup for the v2 Calculator as I had difficulty translating what needed to happen into something a spreadsheet could do. (I could do it well enough with some For loops in Python...)
Anyway, here are the updated Point-Blank and 35 m charts:
Some observations:
- With the inclusion of the reload times, it became readily apparent that the Laser weapons needed one reload to secure a kill at the above ranges, which further increased their TTKs.
- The Intimidator is the only weapon with the ability to secure a sub-second TTK at point-blank, which is possible even without the single-bolt bug.
- The Executioner is performing much better now that the refire times have been corrected, beating out the AR-50 at the ranges these graphs are at.
- Overall, the AR-50 is still a solid all-around performer and would be the best choice for a stand-alone rifle at most ranges.
- The Oppressor lags even further behind because of the refire adjustment decreasing the Executioner TTK, greatly increasing the need for buffs.
The weapons used in those videos:
G5 Oppressor:
- Magazine Size
- Headshot Damage
- Faster Handling
- Stability
- Magazine Size
- Scope
- Stowed Reloading
- Magazine Size
Clearly I had a easier time with the AR-50 than the Oppressor, to the point where I could effortlessly shoot an incoming grenade out of the air.
In conclusion, I reiterate my earlier recommendations for the Oppressor:
I'd also like to ask for a general projectile velocity and rifle-class Effective Range buff, as there are a few Settlement layouts like the one above with these long sightlines that don't make sense with the current velocities and Effective Ranges. In fact, I might just make a massive Odyssey combat overhaul thread with this new calculator...
Very helpful, just getting into the FPS game and been searching for a G3 Oppressor, will now go through this is more detail.
Watching the 'Parry, Riposte' video encouraged me to mini-grind my G3 Oppressor, which already came with fast reloading. At G5, it's fun to use, but not quite doing the job when things go sideways in a command centre. compared to the Tormentor.
I quickly added greater range and stability, which I'm testing tonight, but can't decide between magazine size and increased accuracy. A literal outside bet is audio masking, but seems less useful for a machine gun, when I have a double silenced pistol and sniper[ish] rifle.
I think I'll go for accuracy, and scare the bejeezus out of the enemy.
I quickly added greater range and stability, which I'm testing tonight, but can't decide between magazine size and increased accuracy. A literal outside bet is audio masking, but seems less useful for a machine gun, when I have a double silenced pistol and sniper[ish] rifle.
I think I'll go for accuracy, and scare the bejeezus out of the enemy.
Now we only need to get this thread to one of the few devs that actually care about what the players want and what is logical.
Indeed, when you think the Oppressor is the appropriate choice for a given engagement, the Tormentor can surpass it easily.
Also, for some context for the "Parry, Riposte" video: I used a G5 Oppressor with the Magazine Size, Headshot Damage, Faster Handling and Stability mods to defend one of my Faction's Settlements and attack three others belonging to another Faction. And yes, I modded up a third Oppressor.
The video can be found below, if you're curious about how that Oppressor setup functions (granted, I only come across Rank 1-2 enemies with the occasional OmniPol trooper thrown in):
Greater Range will help with the damage falloff (but not projectile velocity - made that discovery on my first Oppressor), though it's difficult to hit moving targets reliably beyond ~25m. If you manage to force your opponents into a situation where they have to charge at you in a straight line over open terrain as with the two example videos in my previous post, Greater Range might be a little more useful for some extra damage at range.
Stability is a good mod to have on any weapon, though I did have some initial reservations about putting it on the Oppressor. It helps with going for headshots whenever possible.
Given the generally long TTKs in Odyssey, the Magazine Size mod is a very safe and effective bet on any weapon. Higher Accuracy, which decreases the hipfire spread cone, might be a consideration for the Oppressor as it seemingly has better hipfire characteristics than the AR-50... I've never tested it, and I don't think I'll be modding up a fourth Oppressor anytime soon
Well, if we can keep this Thread going, it will hopefully indicate to them that there is still interest in the Oppressor... if there is any to begin with
I really hope the Oppressor doesn't end up like the Shock Cannon.
I really hope we get 'modified' Manticore weapons, with plasma shots that are twice as fast, but that would apparently make them OP...
It was most likely a gameplay concession given that many Settlement layouts are probably under 200 m in length or width with plenty of cover in all directions, though as the two videos I linked above show there are a few that can have very long and open sightlines between the different portions of the Settlement.
Since the dropvultures drop their troops at both sections of those Settlements, it was clearly intended for players to engage enemies at the far end of our weapons' ranges - and honestly, it is very fun to do so. While I don't typically like to publicly speculate on how Odyssey was developed, I do wonder if the dropvulture locations in these larger Settlements (or, perhaps, the larger Settlement designs in general) were implemented / adjusted after the weapons were designed and tested or even created independently of one another, as the weapons' Effective Ranges and projectile velocities don't mesh well with those layouts. In fact, I think there are a few buildings whose interiors are longer than the Oppressor's Effective Range of 35 m...
As I have demonstrated earlier in the thread (in spite of some somewhat inaccurate data from the v1 Calculator) a 200% increase in the Oppressor's projectile velocity to 150 m/s wouldn't make it OP, even in tandem with a 50% damage increase, which I could probably bump up now that I fixed the refire times that made the Executioner's TTK erroneously longer... However, I'm not sure I'd extend that to the other weapons in the Manticore lineup:
1) The Tormentor and Intimidator are (allegedly) close range weapons with short Effective Ranges, thus a slower projectile velocity makes some sense from a gameplay perspective.
2) The Executioner would be OP with such a velocity increase, as it has both alpha damage (being able to drop the shields in a single shot of any opponent at G5) and high DPS, with a (relatively) short bodyshot TTK of 3.50 s @ 35 m. However, it is in a very weird spot: it cannot function as a marksman's rifle with a low projectile velocity, and thus it currently is analogous to a shotgun loaded with slugs. For it to receive a velocity buff, the Executioner would need to be redesigned from the ground up to encourage precision shooting (aiming for the head) instead of DPS racing as it currently is designed. I'm not sure how that can be achieved, and frankly such a topic deserves its own Thread to fully explore potential solutions to that problem - maybe when the Oppressor is finally buffed into relevancy
.I'm in awe of your deep dive on weapons mechanics (reminds me of the discussions of same on the 2K Borderlands forums), so I'll happily go along with that.
Buff the Oppressor!
Buff the Oppressor!
Or alternatively its 3308 give us a aiming reticule like when ur using PAs, fixed multicannons etc. In ur ship. But an on foot version. How to make plasma rifle more than a useless pile of un accurate trash.Two months later and I'm finally back with the Calculator v2!
Since we received confirmation from the Community Managers on the latest Frameshift Live stream that work on Update 12 is ongoing, I feel like now is the best time to revive / have this discussion in the hopes that someone important sees this so that any Oppressor buffs make it into Update 12.
But before I begin, I'd like to extend my gratitude to De_Toqueville and the folks behind the Elite Dangerous Odyssey Material Helper for collecting and providing the data on weapon reload, stow and ready times. It would have taken me far longer to get this done without their help
Now, here's a link to the v2 Calculator:
Oppressor TTK Calculator v2.xlsx
As before, if you'd like to play around with the Calculator:
Some major changes from the previous version:
There might be some additional changes but it's been so long I may have forgotten
- Weapon magazine size is taken into account when calculating the final TTK, and is able to detect when multiple reloads are required to achieve a kill.
- TTKs zero-second start point was moved to the first shot rather than before the first shot (read: I was missing a -1); before this change an extra shot refire time was added to the final TTK which was most noticeable on the L-6.
- Weapon stow / ready times are factored into the TTKs of the Eclipse / AR-50, Aphelion / AR-50 and Zenith / AR-50 TTKs (Not all of them were symmetrical)
- The Intimidator has a brand-new Intimidator Sim to help calculate just how many pellets are needed to break the shield and how many damage the Suit underneath, though it is still subject to the single-bolt bug assumption for simplicity. This was the primary holdup for the v2 Calculator as I had difficulty translating what needed to happen into something a spreadsheet could do. (I could do it well enough with some For loops in Python...)
Anyway, here are the updated Point-Blank and 35 m charts:
Some observations:
To drive that last point home, I recorded some video of me attacking a large Agricultural Settlement (the layout that has the huge main building and those three HAB buildings a couple hundred meters away) with both the Oppressor and the AR-50:
- With the inclusion of the reload times, it became readily apparent that the Laser weapons needed one reload to secure a kill at the above ranges, which further increased their TTKs.
- The Intimidator is the only weapon with the ability to secure a sub-second TTK at point-blank, which is possible even without the single-bolt bug.
- The Executioner is performing much better now that the refire times have been corrected, beating out the AR-50 at the ranges these graphs are at.
- Overall, the AR-50 is still a solid all-around performer and would be the best choice for a stand-alone rifle at most ranges.
- The Oppressor lags even further behind because of the refire adjustment decreasing the Executioner TTK, greatly increasing the need for buffs.
Source: https://youtu.be/neLP2EuPBxw
Source: https://youtu.be/IoKWRroH1Co
The weapons used in those videos:
G5 Oppressor:
G5 AR-50:
- Magazine Size
- Headshot Damage
- Faster Handling
- Stability
G4 L-6, but only periodically:
- Magazine Size
- Scope
- Stowed Reloading
- Magazine Size
Clearly I had a easier time with the AR-50 than the Oppressor, to the point where I could effortlessly shoot an incoming grenade out of the air.
In conclusion, I reiterate my earlier recommendations for the Oppressor:
I'd also like to ask for a general projectile velocity and rifle-class Effective Range buff, as there are a few Settlement layouts like the one above with these long sightlines that don't make sense with the current velocities and Effective Ranges. In fact, I might just make a massive Odyssey combat overhaul thread with this new calculator...
I want my .22 LR...
The worst thing with the Oppressor at the moment is that when my graphics are 'blocky', it doesn't affect the Tormentor or cutter much, they just look blockier (never noticed a problem with the Executioner, maybe its zoom changes the rules). But when I try to peer through the Oppressor's sight, it essentially becomes an opaque white square.
This is probably on my computer as well, and it's the reason why I don't post about having to supercruise out and revisit crash sites several times before the item I'm salvaging appears in a container. It probably doesn't affect anyone else (and someone would probably ask me if I've tried using the FSS).
This is probably on my computer as well, and it's the reason why I don't post about having to supercruise out and revisit crash sites several times before the item I'm salvaging appears in a container. It probably doesn't affect anyone else (and someone would probably ask me if I've tried using the FSS).
Well, that's a bit biased. Maybe more than a bit
You seemed to have a hard time leading the targets with the Oppressor, while showing better lead with the Tormentor (funny, isn't it)
Even tho you had Headshot on Oppressor, you mostly aimed at the torso. In contrast, while using the Ar-50 you aimed mostly at the head, even tho it has no headshot mod *()
You engaged the enemies using the Oppressor from longer ranges that it should be done given the small damage and small projectile speed combo
IMO, Oppressor is quite fine, but it's not for everyone.
With better leading of targets and aiming more at the head it's ttk can be improved.
*(in all the fairness, you had no stability on the Ar-50 - which may lead to a lot of headshots even tho you aimed at the torso - whatever the reason, you got way more headshots with the Ar-50 than the Oppressor and that's enough to skew your perceived effectiveness of the ar-50 compared to the oppressor)
Well, guess it was the same time when a 200m ship cannot hit another 200m ship at ranges beyond 9km and missiles had a max range of 6-8 km - engagements happening in the void of space
Edit: but hey, no complains from me.
The beyond visual range combat involving missile launches then waiting minutes for a hit/miss to register does not make for good game play.
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