What the new secret feature should be

[Cosmo]

This time we should be able to land in Earth, Moon & Mars, like the old versions did.

Developing detailed ELW is more difficult than implementing base building. ELW requires thick atmospheres, lots of new flora and fauna assets, lakes, rivers, ocean tech.

They got the tech and skills to add base building (see Planet Zoo, Planet Coaster which also use the Cobra Engine).

 

[varonica]

For example Starfield has managed that by representing a post-apocalyptic Earth landscape.

Except they haven't, Starfield doesn't render planets, it rends patches of planets, in fact patches that aren't consistent player to player or even session to session, so no, they managed nothing of the sort! I won't argue that what they had done isn't good, but it's not what most people would consider opening up ELW's for players to access. I mean you can't even fly down in Starfield, so I wouldn't compare the two games at all.

 

[MPL3D]

Except they haven't, Starfield doesn't render planets, it rends patches of planets, in fact patches that aren't consistent player to player or even session to session, so no, they managed nothing of the sort! I won't argue that what they had done isn't good, but it's not what most people would consider opening up ELW's for players to access. I mean you can't even fly down in Starfield, so I wouldn't compare the two games at all.

I'm refering to the concept. When thinking about ELWs everybody has a complex visión overflood with little details that would take years to develop.
There could be just land+sea+thick atmo with clouds and we could be having something acceptable, better than what we have today.

 

[Rochester]

ELW are technically rather difficult for ED to perform. All bodies are essentially hollow collision surfaces, the atmospheres are a graphical illusion or sky box filter, objects such as flora etc are sparse for a reason, as they require RAM. Other games get over this by creating an illusion of space and distance, eg mountains are never truly as high as they are in real life, elements are also reused over and over. Many of those that look good are usually due to hand built elements. The tech simply doesn’t exist at present for FD to pull this off, at least not at the level which would be acceptable.

The real problem with ED is it’s bogged down by its PG rating.

FD had very early concepts for NPC crews and environmental elements, such as people having to be rescued from exposure to space. Close quarters combat, blood etc.

In one statement Braben himself said they didn’t want players crashing their ships intentionally into NPC bodies or shooting them. I think this was related really to keeping the PG rating very low.

Such a restriction is actually ultimately very restrictive on various elements, and limits the granularity of game content.

I think most if this is based on the predominant market force which FD wants to attract. If they were able to raise it, then FD could create more content. But ultimately it makes it easier for FD as such a limitations means FD locks themselves out from a certain stratosphere of content… it’s evident historical that FD turned a corner with the development of ED, and they have gone down a totally different path than at the outset. Personally I don’t believe such content is ever coming.

 

[varonica]

ELW are technically rather difficult for ED to perform. All bodies are essentially hollow collision surfaces, the atmospheres are a graphical illusion or sky box filter,

It's actually not a graphical illusion or skybox filter, it can diffuse sunlight and neither of those models can do that.

 

[Alien]

The tech simply doesn’t exist at present for FD to pull this off, at least not at the level which would be acceptable.

I think it's more accurate to say the tech doesn't exist for Frontier at a level which would be acceptable.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Based off what we know, base building is a possibility.

I'm not rooting for that personally though. Why tie yourself to a location when we have mobile bases already? Perhaps better to give FCs more love?

From what we hear, PP2.0 is going to be more PvP focused, which isn't interesting for me, so i'm hoping whatever FD do add will be interesting for me.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I'm refering to the concept. When thinking about ELWs everybody has a complex visión overflood with little details that would take years to develop.
There could be just land+sea+thick atmo with clouds and we could be having something acceptable, better than what we have today.

But "better" in what way?

1) Take a current tenuous atmosphere planet and paint it green.
2) Turn up the atmospheric fog effect to 11, maybe add some static clouds
3) Add a flat "sea level" water effect at the planet's "zero altitude"
4) Scatter some Osseus and Tussock and Bacteria around as usual
5) Permit-lock all inhabited ELWs to avoid giving away that what we thought were giant cities from orbit are actually big patches of bioluminescent lichens.

Okay, you can now land on an ELW but so what? You can't do anything there you can't already do on the much more common tenuous-atmosphere planets.

 

[MPL3D]

But "better" in what way?

1) Take a current tenuous atmosphere planet and paint it green.
2) Turn up the atmospheric fog effect to 11, maybe add some static clouds
3) Add a flat "sea level" water effect at the planet's "zero altitude"
4) Scatter some Osseus and Tussock and Bacteria around as usual
5) Permit-lock all inhabited ELWs to avoid giving away that what we thought were giant cities from orbit are actually big patches of bioluminescent lichens.

Okay, you can now land on an ELW but so what? You can't do anything there you can't already do on the much more common tenuous-atmosphere planets.

It is all about immersion.
We would not have that lack of immersion when you arrive to an ELW and realize that the game does not allow you to pilot your ship down there.
We could be landing at New London base, and other major cities, even if there is nothing else to do, like in any other planet.
And don't forget about other places like Moon or Mars.
All this was possible in Elite 1993, I guess something similar could be done 30 years later. It doesn't need to reach Flight Simulator level.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

ELW are technically rather difficult for ED to perform. All bodies are essentially hollow collision surfaces, the atmospheres are a graphical illusion or sky box filter, objects such as flora etc are sparse for a reason, as they require RAM. Other games get over this by creating an illusion of space and distance, eg mountains are never truly as high as they are in real life, elements are also reused over and over. Many of those that look good are usually due to hand built elements. The tech simply doesn’t exist at present for FD to pull this off, at least not at the level which would be acceptable.
...

If you look at other games in this genre you'll notice there is a popularity for rocky and maybe icy bodies and I think it's just for that reason: vegetation and fauna can be mostly ignored and thus the tech requirements are lower. The games that feature lush earth-likes are dedicated to depicting such environments as a rule. Starfield and NMS took a big step into depicting universal planetary environments and they each paid a price for that.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

It is all about immersion.
We would not have that lack of immersion when you arrive to an ELW and realize that the game does not allow you to pilot your ship down there.
We could be landing at New London base, and other major cities, even if there is nothing else to do, like in any other planet.
And don't forget about other places like Moon or Mars.
All this was possible in Elite 1993, I guess something similar could be done 30 years later. It doesn't need to reach Flight Simulator level.

Yeah, well immersion is become such a platitude in these discussions. It's about time to accept that immersion at this level of fidelity and quality is simply not possible.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It is all about immersion.
We would not have that lack of immersion when you arrive to an ELW and realize that the game does not allow you to pilot your ship down there.

No - instead we'd have the lack of immersion when you arrive to an ELW and the massive cities seen from orbit lighting up the night side turn out to be four landing pads and a few huts, or the vast tropical rainforests turn out to be a slightly darker green surface texture and a few Tubus plants every kilometre. That would certainly bother me more than not being able to land on them at all does.

All this was possible in Elite 1993, I guess something similar could be done 30 years later. It doesn't need to reach Flight Simulator level.

Sure, and if Frontier and players would consider FE2/FFE levels of quality acceptable for textures and modelling, we could have had hundreds of new ships by now too.

 

[Cosmo]

No - instead we'd have the lack of immersion when you arrive to an ELW and the massive cities seen from orbit lighting up the night side turn out to be four landing pads and a few huts, or the vast tropical rainforests turn out to be a slightly darker green surface texture and a few Tubus plants every kilometre. That would certainly bother me more than not being able to land on them at all does.

It's not impossible to add city-scale settlements and vast forests, but it requires new procedural tech (see NMS, SC, Spacebourne 2 etc). If Fdev doesn't have this tech then they need to acquire it from a third party or develop from scratch. They could gradually give access to more detailed planets (with oceans, magma, clouds, sparse forests) and eventually ELW.

 

[metatheurgist]

It's not impossible to add city-scale settlements and vast forests, but it requires new procedural tech (see NMS, SC, Spacebourne 2 etc). If Fdev doesn't have this tech then they need to acquire it from a third party or develop from scratch. They could gradually give access to more detailed planets (with oceans, magma, clouds, sparse forests) and eventually ELW.

Yeah, nah. SC has nothing. No argument that uses SC is credible. If their tech is so great why do they only have 1/4 of a system? NMS is pretty bad, yeah, we could have terrible graphics too I guess.

Sure, and if Frontier and players would consider FE2/FFE levels of quality acceptable for textures and modelling, we could have had hundreds of new ships by now too.

Not to be mean but ED already has enough half-baked systems in it. I don't think we should be encouraging half-baked ELWs, cities, flora etc.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

It's not impossible to add city-scale settlements and vast forests, but it requires new procedural tech (see NMS, SC, Spacebourne 2 etc). If Fdev doesn't have this tech then they need to acquire it from a third party or develop from scratch. They could gradually give access to more detailed planets (with oceans, magma, clouds, sparse forests) and eventually ELW.

SC doesn't have city-scale settlements and doesn't have procedural city generation either. All they can do is paint inaccessible textures of urban theme. I'm not aware NMS has either.

 

[CMDR Daiyus]

At some point people need to accept that we simply do not have the technology to do ELW/Cities at the quality that people want in Elite. NMS is probably closest on a flora/fauna basis, but it sacrifices so much else to do it, to the point I played it for a few hours, then came back to Elite. Would it be great? Of course! But it's just not going to happen from a technological standpoint.

 

[Darkfyre99]

It should not be base buildings

Agreed, given that base buiding was never on the tabe in the first place. In addition, it would likely be part of a paid expansion, rather than part of a point update, given how much work would go into producing it.

It should not be ship interiors

Agreed, given that ship interiors have always been planned as part of a paid expansion, given how much work would go into producing them.

What is missing from the start?
Landing in earth-like planets.
We should be able to land in the Moon and Mars as well, or any other body that physics allow.

Again, this is something that has always been planned as being part of a paid expansion, given how much work would go into producing them. In fact, given the precedent set by Odyssey, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the tech to land on ELW (plus WW and AW) would roll out over multiple paid updates. Frontier would want a wide range of new technology to attract as many players, new and old, to buy the update, and those three worlds require the most technology to do well.

Thankfully, when it comes to terraformed worlds like Mars, or Earth itself, Frontier already has a huge library of Earth-based life, which will reduce the amount of work necessary to create them. The only questions in my mind is whether those worlds are whether terraformed worlds will be one paid update away along with "lifeless" denser atmospheric worlds in general, or two... and whether Odyssey's bungled release has killed any possibility of future paid updates completely.

This is what I'm really missing from the start.
Elite is about piloting spaceships and have places to go.

Agreed. Reaching parity in landable worlds with Frontier: Elite 2 and Frontier First Encounters has always been high on my priority list. I may be feel rather impatient about it, there's so much I want to experience in ED that I could in FE2, but I'm also aware of how much work would be required to do it well. When I backed ED back in 2012, I felt that Frontier had made it quite clear that this would be long-term project, and my experience in long-term game release estimates naturally adjusted those expectations once I'd learned about their general long-term plans. 2030 was my original estimate for when we would be able to land on ELW, WW, and AW. Despite how Odyssey was initially bungled, Frontier remains ahead of my own adjusted schedule. But my earliest estimate is still in 2028.

Btw, it has been a waste of resources to develop a leg system. It is nice, but It is not what this game is about. Would have been better to have new ships instead.

I disagree. Elite Feet may not have been at the top of my priority list, but it was still pretty high on my priority list. I lke the current onfoot gameplay, even if it isn't as expansive as I'd hoped. I fully expect onfoot gameplay and environments to be expanded up in future paid updates.

This time we should be able to land in Earth, Moon & Mars, like the old versions did.

Again, I agree. But Frontier is a for-profit company, and any work on the game has to make a profit. I may be critical of specific decisions the company's manage has made in relation to this game, they've made some real stinkers over the year, but in general they've demonstrated that they know how to get the most game for the least development cost. We'll just have to wait to see if, or more hopefully when, the next paid expansion will be released, and what it'll include.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Hello Games is just down the road from them, perhaps they can borrow their code?

I hope not. It didn't take me long at all to notice how No Man's Sky's PotatoHead procedural generation to started repeating itself. It's one of the primary reasons why I don't play NMS.

EDO players complain about EDO's "tiling," something which which happens infrequently enough that I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the number of times I've noticed it. EDO and EDH players complain about the lack of biodiversity in the void ecology. They'll surely complain when a "huge game company" like Frontier starts producing NMS quality procedural life.

 

[Darkfyre99]

It is all about immersion.
We would not have that lack of immersion when you arrive to an ELW and realize that the game does not allow you to pilot your ship down there.
We could be landing at New London base, and other major cities, even if there is nothing else to do, like in any other planet.
And don't forget about other places like Moon or Mars.
All this was possible in Elite 1993, I guess something similar could be done 30 years later. It doesn't need to reach Flight Simulator level.

Verisimilitude would be a better term than immersion. The FSD is new technology, and it makes sense to me that it'll take time to adapt it to new environments.

And as much as I want to descend through the atmosphere of Emerald, my character's homeworld, and land at Fort O'Brian... not being able to do more than dash across the landing pad and visit the Pilots' Federation Lounge once down there would ultimately become a source of frustration.

How do I know? Because that's the way I currently feel in regards to space stations and planetary ports. I fully expected that when we got Elite Feet, that I'd be able to have adventures in the interiors of those two structures. That I would be able to visit a seedy bar (or a luxury bar in the habitat rings), and get missions from my contacts there... ones I've built over time thanks to previous missions obtained from the impersonal bulletin boards.

Because that's what I was imagining as I played FE2 back in the day. Having the "contacts" in the PF lounge being nothing more than human shaped kiosks is a huge letdown.

When we're able to land at actual cities in this game, I expect to have gameplay similar to, but not nearly as complex as, the adventures I've had in games like Cyberpunk 2077 and other games that make a city as their setting. And that's going to require new tech, because Frontier can't hand craft the tens of thousands large cities that should exist in the Bubble. Or the hundreds of thousands medium cities, and millions of small cities and villages.

 

[Codger]

I vote for shorter carrier jump times