Elite / Frontier What would prevent *you* from buying E4?

[Steve]

Put simple I think alot of attention needs to be paid to the planet side of the game not just space.

If I remember correctly, one of the few snippets of information that DB/FD have ever released suggests that hopping out of your ship once you've landed will be a feature of E4. So I have high hopes that there will be a significant planet-bound aspect to the game.

 

[Spacegamer]

One thing I can remember talking to the mates about years and year ago when first playin FE2 was how we would of loved the ability to leave the ship and move about the city. Perhaps instead of the starport with all the facility there you could have an interactive city were you need to go to the shipyard, view different ships, upgrades. Go to the market place to sell your freshly mined ores etc. Buy multiple ships and keep them in hangers on different planets etc. Put simple I think alot of attention needs to be paid to the planet side of the game not just space.

Definitely hope to see something like that in the new game.

 

[JohannStrauss]

Funny...

I just came here to open such a thread like this one.
So most of the things have been said.
Let me add:

1) NO fixed missions /mission story I HAVE to follow. Give me options and random developments. I hate being forced to run along a path. The last time I played a game based on missions was Populous II - and that was 1989.

2) No fees on server time.

3) LIMITED star systems

4) Fixed game goals

5) A price above 300$

6) My Death - you NEVER know when this game will finally be published, lets hope before 2050 D

 

[JohannStrauss]

Definitely hope to see something like that in the new game.

Well, I posted that idea of leaving my ship as my wish over and over again since 2007. Sure, I'd love to settle down on some nice and cosy planet, leave my Cobra MKII and walk over the green grass - or maybe blue? - until I reach that beautiful waterfall where I can rest and think about my last deal with illegal narcotics and weapons on Baranrd's Star and kiss my alien wife on her 3 mouths. That would be my dream - but most certainly NOT within this game. Perhaps later...in 2020 and Elite VII.

 

[JohannStrauss]

Say NO to MMO!

Regarding MMO: Yes, there is EVE and it will be one very bumpy ride trying to get that audience not to talk about the needed structure to get some so richly detailed game WE ALL WANT ELITE IV to be then pressed into MMO.

And I know this is marketing (but do your homework!) but aren't most of your Elite fans from a timeline BEFORE the console games? It would be smart to reach that massive audience and get them what they want AND catch the new gamers.

Let me tell you about the best selling game in Germany and how they lost all of their audience in 2008: it is called "the settlers" or "die Siedler".

They finally came out with a 6th version after many years and they TRIED to catch the new gamers with fancy combat style, nice graphics and tons of nonsense while on the other hand ELIMINATING ALL the good game features that made it the number one in the 90ies due to the attempt to "make it playable for the new gamer generation of "hit and run" fast war games". The developer said openly: "The new gamers generation don't like to build up an all too complex structure for days and days in a game - they want fast action, so we gave it to them"

You can imagine what they did to the settlers...they ruined it. They CUT out all of the very complex stuff that made it the most successful series in Germany of all time. Yes, they got some new customers but they lost ALL of the old fans so the game was more or less a disaster (which was quiet hard with such a legend of game) counting ALL the numbers.

So HEAR US - hear the fans waiting patiently for 20 (!!!!) freaking years for the new Elite game.

- DON'T make the game a fast combat wargame - and lose the spirit of the trading
- DON'T lose the Newton style for the "new gamers" - just DON'T do it!
- DON'T make it MMO

Do it like Peter Jackson and the "one ring" community and LISTEN to your FANS and get 11 Oscars - or do it like George Lucas and ruin a legend like he did with the unbearable FX CGI pre/sequel of Star Wars to get the PG13 and below audience and win 5 golden Rasps.

 

[bananascope]

I just came here to open such a thread like this one.
So most of the things have been said.
Let me add:

1) NO fixed missions /mission story I HAVE to follow. Give me options and random developments. I hate being forced to run along a path. The last time I played a game based on missions was Populous II - and that was 1989.

i agree (for what its worth!) i'd love a big story line but let me do it in my own time or even (if i'm not good enough!) not at all. to cite example, fallout 3 or oblivion, different types of games i know but you get the idea

 

[trmxplat]

In my opinion, the following will prevent me from buying Elite IV. Thanks to DraQ and former poster for this important thread and their inspirations.

• Dumb DRM scheme limiting the number of installations, installing potentially malignant code on my machine or otherwise forcing me to jump through the hoops I might not desire to jump through.
• Lack of realistically scaled, astronomically correct systems governed by orbital mechanics - why remove one of the chief differences between Frontier and :insertanyarcadespaceshooterhere:?
• Lack of Newtonian flight model, complete with gravity and without arbitrary restrictions like inability to rotate independently of flight direction or arbitrary max speed - see above (unless it's superseded by an Einsteinian flight model - then, by all means, indulge me).
• Lack of option to directly control thrusters in combat, without pesky ship's computer interfering - preferably full Jordanian Controls, but Frontier's main+retro will do in a pinch
• Being console only
• It's over-simplified and dumbed down
• Lacking trading system and economy: Only a few games ever managed to get this done well. But DO not implement some automatic "market analysis tools" or something, please. I do admire the experience and knowledge of veteran traders and I would like to get excited, if stock prices are good. The former trading computer is enough.
• Please dont include a "pimp my spaceship"-shop. Large vessels like spaceships will always have a couple of limitations. I ve been very satisfied
  with the former games regarding this point.
  
• No possibility to accumulate personal wealth, posessions and other assets. The more the merrier. This has killed *so* many games. People like to hoard.
  
  Thats an interesting point and should have a broader discussion!
  
  In Elite, I ve always been able to become an unimaginable wealthy trader. But I really didnt like the X-concept with its factorys and farms and stuff. I think the most fascinating point in Elite has always been the exploration of this almost infinite and interesting galaxy. I hope, Elite IV will make it possible to spent my credits on a really good exploration project. Maybe the possibility to _found_ (not to reign) new settlements in border regions for a really high price would be quite fascinating. The more, if these settlements would slightly affect the development of the older systems.
  
• DON'T make the game a fast combat wargame - and lose the spirit of the trading
• DON'T lose the Newton style for the "new gamers" - just DON'T do it!
  
• If the reviews said that it was an EVE/X series clone. Really, Elite has had everything these games didnt have: Unlimited realistic space and phsysics, no comic aliens, no movie-like story. I would love to dive into gas giants, landing on mars and burning my down-shielded ship in a dense atmosphere!
  
  I dont think, graphic is very important - aslong as space isnt navy blue anymore ^^
  
  Playing Elite has always been a bit like reading a good (science fiction) novel - imagination completes almost every lack of hq-pictures
  

 

[GBrundage]

Micro-transactions. Every game that I've played that features micro-transactions always ends up costing more to play than straight-up games with a flat monthly fee.

If it were an Eve:On-Line clone. I played Eve because I couldn't find a better MMORPG space game. But, still, it was lame as you either spent all your time huddled with carebears or in another stupid war in zero-space...

Aggressive DRM. Let's face it, hackers hack and they're going to bust your lame scheme. Meanwhile, me the consumer, has something approaching malware on my computer. I especially hate the limited-install DRMs as I have multiple computers and, at times, massively reconfigure them with new motherboards, video cards, etc. and it counts as an "install." I also despise the ones that have to hook-up to the Internet, sooner or later, or you can't play.

Shoddy, sloppy worksmanship with little interesting content. The Spore, really, says it all for me...

 

[DraQ]

If it works (well enough) in WINE, or if there's a linux binary, I'll be buying it.

Not a strict requirement with me, but it'll certainly help, as I currently don't have much motivation to not move onto linux. Windows systems are bloated, buggy, allow little user intervention and are built ass-backwards. The only thing that has managed to keep me on windows for so long was gaming, and it's currently going down the gutter, so yeah.

on the side-topic of realistic physics; imho, e2:f had the best dogfighting in the whole series. There aren't car-style chases like in FFE, it's all orbital and slingshot and wait an hour til they come back in range, then FIRE!

I must call you out on that, my good sir.

Apart from annoying and undesirable manoeuvring "assist" that costed me many a moment of grief and frustration, but is almost unnoticeable in most circumstances, and apart from greatly improved AI in FFE (pirates in FE2 couldn't hit the broad side of Coriolis station from half a km away) combat mechanics in both games was identical, courtesy of the physics, ranges and ship parameters being identical.
The only difference was that FFE cut off the "velocity adjust mode" when the ship was attacked, while in FE2 you had to do so manually by switching into "engines off" mode. If you hadn't, the ship tried to match it's velocity vector to the one specified by the pilot, according to the frame of reference, no matter that both the ship and the enemy was hurtling through space at several thousand of km/s according to this FoR. This resulted in rather nonsensical and utterly uncontrollable "jousting". You can still joust in FE2 and FFE at the beginning of the combat (to get relatively close to the enemy, without getting melted by their suppressive fire), if you're inexperienced or if your ship is much more sluggish than the enemy vessel, but, other than that, both in FE2 and FFE the combat consisted of precise directed burns in attempts to get relatively close to the enemy while staying out of their line of fire. All in all, the combat was very anachronistic, but physically correct - in neither game did it emulate WWI dogfights in SPAAAACE!

I know most people are APPALLED by the thought of realistic space fighting, but i maintain, the problem isn't the physics of the endeavor aren't fun, it's the weapons don't match the environment, if the weapons were better designed (and shipboard computer assisted) for the relativistic, constantly shifting orbits of the combatants, it could be more fun.

I, personally, am enthralled by it.

Also, regarding "relativistic" - last time I checked there were no plans to make E4 Einsteinian, but if it turned out to be the first spacesim of this type, I will surely make Braben a lot of bad publicity by entering the berserk rage whenever someone says this game sucks and inflicting grievous bodily harm on them (possibly even grievous harm with a body) .

ships in E4 should have the "Match Velocity" feature in targeting computers (of a certain quality) like in Terminus, which would rapidly adjust-to-match your reference velocity that of your target's, so you could accelerate/decelerate at a rate IN REFERENCE to your target. That solves most peoples problems with the relativity of combat.

That'd be good, as long as it's optional. While displaying your velocity relative to the target, and possibly even HUD visualizations of surrounding objects' relative velocity vectors (like in otherwise arcade-y Darklight Conflict) at all times would hurt no one, I'd rather still use precise fully manual burns most of the time given the choice.

As for the slider, I will elucidate below.

It depends on the games setting for me. I think it'd be great to feel like your in a real universe where it's dark and how you'd imagine space to be, but I also think there should be those out-of-this-world visuals happening in the landscape (like the above image) that you see when flying. To me, it should make me think "wow, maybe this is really out there somewhere" as that adds to the enjoyment of seeing something I can't see in real-life, or haven't already seen in other media.

"wow, maybe this is really out there somewhere" feeling is best facilitated by the sight that can be out there somewhere.

Colourful nebulae / landscapes can always be supplemented by events as well, like capital ship graveyards or the remnants of a planet so it's easy to make space look interesting, but not unrealistic.

Nebulae should definitely be a rare sight, and only applicable, when you're close enough to them. The backdrops in general should ideally look like darkened and toned down backdrops from the first Homeworld. IMO, the best idea would be to generate backdrops during the hyperjump by mapping the densities and colours of surrounding stars, gas and dust clouds onto the celestial sphere. Bright/nearby stars would be rendered individually, while the rest only as nebulous haze.

Things like ship graveyards (possibly ancient alien ship graveyard bristling with promises of alien artifacts and tech in some Lagrangian point on the fringe of the explored space or beyond), remains of some superstructures, maybe even abandoned alien portal network that can be reactivated and used to venture far beyond the normal jump range, cities and stations, including giant aerostates in gas giants' atmospheres, crawling cities staying on the night hemisphere on planets orbiting too close to their suns, orbital elevators, rare gas giants where some sort of biosphere evolved in the atmosphere, rare Smoke Ring style or Rocheworld worlds etc. can all add flavour to the game without making it unrealistic. See Niven's work for further examples that realism doesn't equal boredom - this guy is the master of settings, also check some artistic, but astronomically correct renditions of extrasolar planets and their possible landscapes:
http://www.extrasolar.net/usage.asp

For extra nerdgasms, do check the site itself,
especially science and planets sections.

Newtonian physics brings up an entirely new debate, such as can a Newtonian physics flight model (simulator style) co-exist with an arcade-like physics flight model (casual style)? ...Especially when considering multiplayer.

I think it's ass backwards approach. Instead of trying to introduce different kinds of physics, which would create all sorts of problems with the AI, balance and, in multiplayer, mess up the game for the people using different setting (if only because the other players' ships might behave in the way contradicting their expectations), the "Training wheels" approach should be used.
Rather than altering the physics, there should be an option that made the ship emulate arcade behaviour using it's thrusters, without ever exceeding it's physical capabilities. Sort of extension and extrapolation of the "manual" mode from FE2.
Obviously, the important feature of the training wheels is that they can be discarded at will.

The multiplayer would have to sport some alterations of the singleplayer mechanics - with no stardreamer, there should be an option to do some in-system jump. Of course, the mechanics in singleplayer should be unaffected by that.

Shoddy, sloppy worksmanship with little interesting content. The Spore, really, says it all for me...

So does Oblivion.

 

[Digit]

* it being an utter betrayal of the fanbase

* "arcade" unrealistic space. ie, NO FLYING THROUGH SOUP! space is an ultra low friction vacuum! (i'd probably kill myself if they did this tho... i know its incredibly unlikely)

* not able to run on linux.
^ this one i'm struggling with. if i have to use windows..... then.... elite4 is probably about the only thing that would get me to do it. but even then.... ugh... super super reluctant. it'd have to live up to and surpass expectations in all other regards.

* drop the multiplayer entirely.
serious consideration of not purchasing even the single player.

* pay to play.
again... surpass expectations in all other regards, and then you might, juuuuust might get a 1/1,000,000 chance of playing.

* insist on spyware

* other malware, or treachery (ie, drm etc)

* cartoonified, loss of realism.

* waaaay too much mundane unimaginitive realism... ie... we'd have to sit for days at our computer just to get anywhere. make there available fast drives, time bending, whatever... it's still gotta b playable n fun. (though, t'would b cool if you started out with crap equip n have to make your coin for a faster drive in one star system... that'd make u appreciate the better equip).

* too many aliens. similar to the last two points... if it looses the specialness to the one true alien sentient race, then it looses my interest a bit.


having said all that.... when it arrives.... all but the betrayal, soup-space, pay-to-play and unplayable-on-linux issues arent really deal breakers for me, just will leave me mightily irate. oh please, please, please play on linux!

 

[DraQ]

* waaaay too much mundane unimaginitive realism... ie... we'd have to sit for days at our computer just to get anywhere.

Time compression takes care of it in SP. In MP there will probably be something like more precise hyperjumps or I-War's LDS analog.

* too many aliens. similar to the last two points... if it looses the specialness to the one true alien sentient race, then it looses my interest a bit.

What about spreading several technologically advanced alien species around the galaxy, then using some plot device to actually make them visitable (hey, maybe unlock starting new freeform game as one of them after completion of main plot?)? Most glaring problem with typical SF is squeezing a bazillion of rubber-forehead aliens in a tight space, and tight space is one of the thing we can count on E4 not having.

 

[nats]

What I loved about Frontier was that it seemed to encompass much that I llike about Traveller the Role Playing Game - things like having to think about fuel, travelling from jump points into the system, planet landings, trade, bounties, exciting battles with lasers etc. I cant really say exactly rwjhat it was that made Frontier so good possibly the feeling that you were just a small part of this massive game going on around you with ships travelling around etc - it just felt so real. Any new game would have to grab that feeling again for me to want to buy it and play it a lot - especially with my limited free time these days compared to when Frontier was out.

 

[DraQ]

it just felt so real.

This. This made Frontier special. Travel to a point 1AU away from Sol in Frontier, turn the engines off and you will start falling towards it just as fast as you would IRL. Travel to Slpha Centauri and first thing you see are twin yellow suns circling each other in the same time it takes them IRL. Frontier is best virtual surrogate of having an actual Cobra Mk3 parked behind the house.

 

[Spacegamer]

What I loved about Frontier was that it seemed to encompass much that I llike about Traveller the Role Playing Game

Thats the thing I have always liked about the Elite/frontier games.The similarties to the Traveller game.

 

[sfried]

I am hoping that despite the scope, E4's system requirements wouldn't skyrocket (which would be different from "recommended"). Granted, I should probably get a better PC by now, but I'm amazed how much I'm able to get away with with only a 32MB graphics card on my laptop. The fact that I'm still able to enjoy games like HL2 and the new Monkey Island episodes shows that good art direction should be top priority over fancy effects. I don't mind trying to play this game in 800x600, as long as I get to play it...

 

[bassmike200]

Not having sufficient cash to purchase it there and then might delay it, but I guess I'd buy it anyway, it's not like I'm gonna be good enough a player to discover any potential problems and modern games are beta-tested to massive extremes these days!

 

[peteuplink]

For me the biggest problem will be if the game features a draconian DRM system or if you have to activate it online before you can play.

The DRM is a problem because I don't want something installed on my PC that 1) I don't know what it's doing and 2) I can;t get rid of even after I uninstall the game.

The online activation is a problem because if I buy a game I like to be able to install and uninstall it as many times as I like, when I like (I do a lot of work on this PC as well as gaming and sometimes the games have to beuninstalled to make room for other things). I buy movies on DVD and I can watch them as and when I feel like it many years after the DVD was bought. What I don't want to do is buy Elite 4 and in say in 5-10 years time be unable to play it because the activation servers have been taken down.

What I would like to see in the game is customisable realism, so I can set the game to be as real and as challenging as I want. That way if I want to play with full Newtonian physics, I can, but I can also turn them off if I just want to fly round in circles going "pew pew" as DraQ puts it

 

[Vincku]

DRM, and subscription fee would stop me from buying the game.
It could be MMO, but not mandatory.

And please don't make it look like the X1,X2,X3 serie which feel completely sterile and no feeling of flying in space at all.

 

[mungbean]

I will buy it whatever.

I will be disappointed if:
-It doesn't feature realistic physics

What does one consider 'realistic physics' to be in the far future? There may be ways in which Newtonian Physics can be overcome as inertia may be just another electromagnetic effect which could be countered - according to a New Scientist article I read a few years ago.

It's far more fun to be able to steer a spaceship like in Star Wars rather than like what occurs in Frontier. I suggest having the option to switch on a spaceships 'Inertia Dampers' which would counter-act Newtonian movement for those that want it.

 

[mungbean]

If you can save yopur character

I think for Elite to work as a multiplayer online game (which is surely the way to go) it needs to make sure that once your're dead you stay dead and have to start again from scratch.

If you dock safely into a spacestation etc you can SAVE so that you are still there when you return from real life, but not when you are being shot to bits out in space. The online game would keep a record of what has happened to you and once you are killed, that's it.

Otherwise online gaming will be pretty pointless if you can just save your last status and will lead to people being reckless for the fun of it.