"What's in it for the trader?" - Dumbest question ever?

[Ezren]

Your grasping ability must be incredibly bad:

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Whenever "honest piracy" or something in that vein is discussed, this question always comes up. It's one of the dumbest phrases there is.

"What's in it for the trader?" - HUH? It's like asking why Doom has monsters.

Pirates must exist for the same reasons enemies exist in almost all other games. Every empire trade builder has an enemy empire, enemy economy simulation has an enemy corporation. And even in the 80s ELITE games you had the darn pirates.

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Quite obvious I meant pirates refering to the doom monsters.

Haha, okay. I'll try to explain this to you without directly insulting you, but I will point out the irony in you slinging the word "dumb" around so vigorously.

In what you claim to be what you meant to say, in your own, special way, you're equating Player Pirates with NPC monsters. So what we have here is a case of you not understanding the simple difference between PvE and PvP (which you do seem to struggle with so). You continually compare environmental, game generated hazards with player vs player confrontation.

It's not a failure in my "grasping ability" as much as it is a failure for you to make a coherent point.

 

[markuslig]

Traders make MONEY. Traders make A LOT OF MONEY. Traders make so much money per hour it DOES NOT MATTER if they blow up. Trading is and has always been the greatest way to accumulate ridiculous amounts of wealth in Elite in the shortest time possible.

And folks think they have it bad?

I say we string those rich tax avoiding sods up on a wooden platform and let 'em hang high! They're exploiting the poor and abusing the innocent all in the name of greed!

Filthy heathen trading scum, they have none of my sympathy.

lol, *some word im not alowed to say*!! It is true though, i made a lot since last time i was interdicted by a player probably about 2 spanking new condas, i would probably made more if i didnt change carreer so often... actually last time i was shoot down by a player was back when they blocked Maya station to protect the barnacles or whatever. No interdiction involved... But then i flew a cheap ASP so it wasnt a big loss

 

[boringnick]

That game sounds terrifically far from being able to just take off and do whatever you want.

And what would that actually BE? The current game IS one inch deep. A nonstop mega-grind of very simple mechanics (which work for a few weeks, but certainly not for a game wanting to span years). And the trading is actually below Frontier (Frontier had tough as nails pirates in non-core and a more risky illegal import system).

The only hope is player driven meta-content. FDEV are completely unable to create something truly interesting that is solely NPC based ("background simulation" is far below X3 levels in terms of actually feeling and experiencing it). All their efforts are straight from the Korea grind school so far.

But trying to truly widen the game will elicit reactions like yours.. ah, this game is hopeless.

The reason why trader "fight back" tools like NPC wings, system security etc. still aren't there, despite the game being in its second year (and having an alpha in 2012 already) is because too many users enable the devs in their laziness. They get away with RNG minigames while letting the whole pirate-trader-bounty hunter backbone (the very core of a space trader) linger.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The only hope is player driven meta-content. FDEV are completely unable to create something truly interesting that is solely NPC based ("background simulation" is far below X3 levels in terms of actually feeling and experiencing it).

Relying on player-driven content in a game that requires to be played single-player would be a strange design decision.

 

[boringnick]

Haha, okay. I'll try to explain this to you without directly insulting you, but I will point out the irony in you slinging the word "dumb" around so vigorously.

In what you claim to be what you meant to say, in your own, special way, you're equating Player Pirates with NPC monsters. So what we have here is a case of you not understanding the simple difference between PvE and PvP (which you do seem to struggle with so). You continually compare environmental, game generated hazards with player vs player confrontation.

It's not a failure in my "grasping ability" as much as it is a failure for you to make a coherent point.

Actually, yes, I think there should't be much difference between NPC and players in an open game world like this.

Make the pirates a lot tougher, and then you would need pretty much the same systems and "meta" against them like against players.

In an open world where every ship is on equal footing, at least in theory (unlike the obvious distinction between super-weak mass NPCs and the heroes in a themepark MMO), PVP vs PVE should not carry the same distinction as in a "hero" MMO.

 

[Ezren]

And what would that actually BE? The current game IS one inch deep. A nonstop mega-grind of very simple mechanics (which work for a few weeks, but certainly not for a game wanting to span years).

Alright let's just stop you there. You're saying that the only way the game content will "span years" is if it's focused more heavily on driving PvP between factions of traders and pirates. Sure, you can throw some other hypothetical (and everything you're throwing is hypothetical) factors in, but according to you it all revolves around the core pirates vs traders concept.

If that's the game you want, go play World of Warcraft, be a support class, and PvP. It works in that context. This is a space sim, however, and your claims that traders vs pirates is the longevity of the game has no merit.

 

[Darrett]

I don't think you need to apply a bonus to traders for open play (though that would be the easiest approach). If NPC pirates were very annoying, the most prosperous trading was found in anarchy/LowSec systems, and pirates were given more tools that the NPCs used well, then players in Solo would want to wing up for protection, as they're far more likely to be destroyed/lose cargo alone. Then, you increase the amount that people get through trade dividends and grant materials for completing an escort run, and the advantage to open is that you're able to find more players to wing up with for protection.

 

[frostypaw]

And what would that actually BE? The current game IS one inch deep. A nonstop mega-grind of very simple mechanics (which work for a few weeks, but certainly not for a game wanting to span years). And the trading is actually below Frontier (Frontier had tough as nails pirates in non-core and a more risky illegal import system).

The only hope is player driven meta-content. FDEV are completely unable to create something truly interesting that is solely NPC based ("background simulation" is far below X3 levels in terms of actually feeling and experiencing it). All their efforts are straight from the Korea grind school so far.

But trying to truly widen the game will elicit reactions like yours.. ah, this game is hopeless.

The reason why trader "fight back" tools like NPC wings, system security etc. still aren't there, despite the game being in its second year (and having an alpha in 2012 already) is because too many users enable the devs in their laziness. They get away with RNG minigames while letting the whole pirate-trader-bounty hunter backbone (the very core of a space trader) linger.

lol god bless you

there's a buttload to do, and plenty of dev time left - you're just trying to press buttons. jog on.

 

[boringnick]

This is a space sim, however, and your claims that traders vs pirates is the longevity of the game has no merit.

OK, wait. If the game isn't primarily about the trader-pirate-bounty hunter mechanic, what then?

The franchise was always about this mechanic (be a bounty hunter, trader, pirate etc.). In a online-enabled game of this franchise, it should be obvious that the players fill those roles, at least in part. Likewise, in a 2016 version of the game, the roles should be a lot more fleshed out than in the 80s version.

So, let's take that out. Just what's left?

 

[Ezren]

Actually, yes, I think there should't be much difference between NPC and players in an open game world like this.

Make the pirates a lot tougher, and then you would need pretty much the same systems and "meta" against them like against players.

In an open world where every ship is on equal footing, at least in theory (unlike the obvious distinction between super-weak mass NPCs and the heroes in a themepark MMO), PVP vs PVE should not carry the same distinction as in a "hero" MMO.

Just stop throwing the word "meta" around.

Also, are you saying that trade ships are on "equal footing" with pirate ships?

 

[boringnick]

Also, are you saying that trade ships are on "equal footing" with pirate ships?

With the right tools, they would be. Walmart is far more powerful than all of Somalia and they can hire people who could nuke all pirate ships on earth if they wanted to.

 

[Robert Maynard]

OK, wait. If the game isn't primarily about the trader-pirate-bounty hunter mechanic, what then?

The franchise was always about this mechanic (be a bounty hunter, trader, pirate etc.). In a online-enabled game of this franchise, it should be obvious that the players fill those roles, at least in part. Likewise, in a 2016 version of the game, the roles should be a lot more fleshed out than in the 80s version.

So, let's take that out. Just what's left?

Exploration - and lots of it....

It is the other path to Elite, after all.

.... but let's not be rash - let's leave the Combat and Trade / Smuggling routes as well.

 

[goemon]

OK, wait. If the game isn't primarily about the trader-pirate-bounty hunter mechanic, what then?

The franchise was always about this mechanic (be a bounty hunter, trader, pirate etc.). In a online-enabled game of this franchise, it should be obvious that the players fill those roles, at least in part. Likewise, in a 2016 version of the game, the roles should be a lot more fleshed out than in the 80s version.https://www.frontierstore.net/eur/g...lite-dangerous-commander-deluxe-edition.html/

So, let's take that out. Just what's left?

i suggest looking in the right hand panel, all of it, including stats. it gives you a brief idea about the variety of things which are ingame.

 

[Ezren]

OK, wait. If the game isn't primarily about the trader-pirate-bounty hunter mechanic, what then?

The franchise was always about this mechanic (be a bounty hunter, trader, pirate etc.). In a online-enabled game of this franchise, it should be obvious that the players fill those roles, at least in part. Likewise, in a 2016 version of the game, the roles should be a lot more fleshed out than in the 80s version.

So, let's take that out. Just what's left?

Woah there, reign in on saying what the game "should" be. You've been doing that plenty, I think.

Also, you're completely changing what I said. I said very specifically that you're focused entirely on the "pirates vs traders" aspect. Bounty hunters are not part of that equation - the crime and punishment system does not offer incentive to combat player pirates. And no, I don't want to hear about how "it should work" with a hypothetical system that you cannot define in any way, except that it could exist in some form.

So, we're not going to be talking sideways into another topic. I said it very simply: you're claiming the core of the game can only have longevity with a pirate vs trader dynamic. This claim has no merit.

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With the right tools, they would be. Walmart is far more powerful than all of Somalia and they can hire people who could nuke all pirate ships on earth if they wanted to.

...No.

Honestly that ridiculous comparison and argument doesn't even deserve a response.

 

[Tiwaz]

With the right tools, they would be. Walmart is far more powerful than all of Somalia and they can hire people who could nuke all pirate ships on earth if they wanted to.

Right tools, AKA stop being trade ship.
Trader COULD (assuming they have already made a fortune somehow) fly in ship that specced to the latest PvP flavor. And top it with minimal cargo. It would suck at trading though.

Oh, not comes idea "You need to pay people to protect you". So my possibility of playing as trader would depend on being able to find people to protect me? Oh, and let's not forget that I have ZERO incentive to trust anyone in Open. I am rather wary of anyone in Mobius alone, not to mention Open. My "escort" could just as well be undercover ganksquad. NPC escorts in turn are not there and have no idea how, or if at all, that would work.

Game has to be playable for ALL professions WITHOUT any other players required. Anything else is completely idiotic game design.

 

[Derath]

Also, are you saying that trade ships are on "equal footing" with pirate ships?

Not to bust on in but trader ships are on equal footing with pirate ships unless you deliberately choose to fly one of the cheap ones as a trade-off, a trade python and a pirate python are very similar, the pirate has to be light, collector modules, hatchbreakers, interdiction module, fuel scoop and sufficient cargo to actually take a reasonable score without docking every 2 minutes, you can run a SCB/HRP if you want, or armour, at the expense of effective earnings but the same can be said for traders too.

 

[DrakeAurum]

Then why are there NPC's?

NPCs are an impersonal threat that can generally be predicted and accounted for. Even if an NPC pirate manages to stop and destroy a PC trader, it's nothing personal - it's just a game doing what it does.

Having an actual human being use you as their plaything while you have no effective recourse is a far different and more personal experience. Some people may relish that experience, but many others do not.

 

[Darrett]

Right tools, AKA stop being trade ship. Trader COULD (assuming they have already made a fortune somehow) fly in ship that specced to the latest PvP flavor. And top it with minimal cargo. It would suck at trading though.Oh, not comes idea "You need to pay people to protect you". So my possibility of playing as trader would depend on being able to find people to protect me? Oh, and let's not forget that I have ZERO incentive to trust anyone in Open. I am rather wary of anyone in Mobius alone, not to mention Open. My "escort" could just as well be undercover ganksquad. NPC escorts in turn are not there and have no idea how, or if at all, that would work.Game has to be playable for ALL professions WITHOUT any other players required. Anything else is completely idiotic game design.

You're taking it to extremes. If you don't have anyone to defend you, you can trade just fine in smaller quantities using an Asp, for instance. Set it up with a shield and defensive utility modules, and perhaps a SCB. If you want to run alone in a trade-fit Anaconda, especially without shields, then you're no longer operating in the realm of "possible for solo", and you're being foolish. The NPCs should be all over that.

 

[boringnick]

Bounty hunters are automatically in the equation. They are the natural allies of the traders.

And no, I don't want to hear about how "it should work" with a hypothetical system that you cannot define in any way, except that it could exist in some form.

It's because the game is broken on a fundamental level. They are wasting time with crap like engineers instead of fleshing out the pirate-trader-bounty hunter ecosystem.

So, we're not going to be talking sideways into another topic. I said it very simply: you're claiming the core of the game can only have longevity with a pirate vs trader dynamic. This claim has no merit.

Pirates want to achieve wealth and fame by cracking trade routes, watching out for undefended cargo haulers carrying the gold, traders want to get the riches by establishing the best and most lucrative trades.

Only this dynamic can achieve the dynamism the game needs: Traders upping up their defense, the pirates in turn react by trying to sneak past them, how to crack the pirate convoy configuration the traders are now using etc. etc.

Of course, the tools to make all this possible ARE NOT THERE: I KNOW!

That's a HUGE reason for all the one-inch-deep problems. For all the cries of boredom, meaninglessness and "what to do". The game gets a lot of flack on all its main forums (this, reddit, steam) if you haven't noticed it already. There's a good reason for that.

So, if the game shouldn't be defined by its trader-pirate backbone, THEN WHAT? Weren't the previous games trader/pirate cat and mouse games as well? (I want to get this cheap pirates at Phekda, but it's swarmed with pirates. Should I take the risk, get better weapons and try it.. I want to pirate this trader, but it's a Imperial Courier and it could carry some nice weapons, should I risk it..?)

It just that this needs to be fleshed out more. A LOT. On both sides, with defenses and counter-defenses. No one argues that the traders should have no tools at thier disposal, ridiculous.

Take the player-trader dynamic out, just what's left? The sorry "BGS"? The "ten planet textures" exploration?

 

[smiths121]

Well having scanned the 5 pages so far, all I've got is traders should want to play the cat/mouse game with pirates. Also got the problem is player piracy has a no win scenario for the trader.

Some other stuff that did not pique my interest too much.

I got say I agree with both points. However, there does not appear to be enough people who agree with the first point to make piracy in open viable - at least by my recent experience, although I have not done a CG in ages. Sort of backed up by the number of similar posts on the subject over the last few days.

I really believe the rewards in open need to be greater to offset the perceived risks in open. I do not actually think open is that much more dangerous than solo - but enough do to make my point pointless, however I think if lots of traders returned I would end up having to eat those words. Traders will attract pirates that will attract people roleplaying psychos etc.

The other thing is, if I am a Dangerous/Tycoon/Pathfinder and enjoyed getting to this level in solo/group - so have not learnt some of the defenses against PvP - why would I start now, when I have my trade routes, got my bounty hunting areas and have a top of the range Asp Explorer waiting for my next trip?

Simon