What's the official word on the DDF/DDA?

[Sanderson]

What's the official word on the DDF/DDA? Anyone know?

I've gathered that the DDF is a "wishlist" and not a design outline but, has there been any official word on what the heck is going on in regards to all those wishlist items? What's the likelihood that any/most/some/none will ever make it into the game?

I'm being 100% serious. Before release it was widely accepted that the DDF/DDA was the blueprint for the game. We now know that it wasn't ever intended as a blueprint, so where does that leave the game? Are FD still trying to follow the things outlined in the DDA/DDF?

We used to be able to point people to the DDA when they asked questions about what will be in the game but, obviously we can't (or shouldn't) do that anymore because no one knows what if any of the "wishlist" things not implemented (and there are many) may or may not ever be realized in the game or if FD still (if ever) plans to put them in the game.

So what's the story? What happened to all that stuff in the DDF/DDA? Is it going to be in? Is it out? Is FD not saying anything and letting sales dictate how long/much of the DDA they can pull from? Why all the secrecy or ignoring the DDF/DDA issue?

I'm not asking for the super top secret "roadmap", what I am asking is how big will the vertical slice potentially, and more important realistically, grow from it's current form in relation to the DDF/DDA and what's currently in-game? Based on what I've seen the DDA will never be fully implemented or even the majority of it as I doubt FD will still be developing ED in the time it would take to get it all in the game. Unless, by some miracle, FD can recover from the bungled release with the upcoming patches, especially 1.2 in March, as that's what I'd call the single most glaring omission (real, meaningful multiplayer) in the game and the biggest killer of potential sales.

Is there a plan in place? I'm not asking for the plan, I'm just honestly curious if there is one beyond 1.1/1.2. It would appear to me that FD is winging it (no pun intended) and while some ideas are floating around, there really isn't any long term plan set in place. Is there? I'm NOT asking for the plan, I just want to know if there is one. Is there? I don't think I'd believe there is one if they said there was as, IMO, FD is so busy trying to fix what in the game right now the've had little time to think past that. Who knows?

Anyone have an e-mail address for David Braben? I'd like to ask him a lot of questions. In the off chance there actually is an e-mail he can be reached at (that's available to peasants like myself anyway) and that he'd actually read it, much less respond to it. Hell we can't even get him on his own forum for more than one or two 15 minute Q&A (really in those cases the Q&A stands for quiet and avoid) thing he did months ago.

Even without the DDF/DDA the game is still a long way from the vision David was selling for more than two years, so where does the game stand moving forward? There's no reliable source to point people to when they ask "Is this all there's going to be in the game?" or something similar as the DDA no longer, applies or does it? No one seems to know, certainly not the players.

Again, since the DDF/DDA is a "wishlist" has any of those wishes been marked off as probably never going to make it in the game? Has any been marked as "at some point we'll flesh it out and put them in" ? It's all very confusing right now as no one, including FD, seems to know what the heck is going on. Certainly us, the paying customers, don't beyond the proposed 1.1/1.2 patches that'll hopefully be released in the next 8 two months.

 

[Zvanya]

Thank you for this. It echos my thoughts. I still regard the DDA as a feature list, while realizing that realistically every single thing in it will probably not make it into the game.

However for many months the forum users referred to the DDA as a planned feature list, people regularly linked to the DDA saying "there is it! it's a planned feature!"

And FD NEVER said it wasn't. So I'm expecting that stuff and if any major portion of it is just dropped I will not be happy about it. Thankfully I did not buy the "lifetime expansion pass" And I say now I will NOT buy any expansion if FD breaks faith regarding implementing the DDA features.

So FD you might want to answer the question raised by the OP. I'm waiting.

 

[tough boy]

No there isn't. And I really whish there was.

 

[CMDR MassDef]

It's all very confusing right now as no one, including FD, seems to know what the heck is going on. .

Looks like that's the case, so don't expect a dev answer. On the other hand you should expect some constructive replies such as

- Come back in six months
- The game is complete, so shut up you troll
- Use your imagination Captain Nemo
- My wife likes it, so who cares what you think

Thread closed

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

We now know that it wasn't ever intended as a blueprint, so where does that leave the game? Are FD still trying to follow the things outlined in the DDA/DDF?

We don't actually know that, we just suspect it. When designing any big system, you always get a better design if you know the whole of the big picture of what was intended: much less likely to paint yourself into corners. So going to all that level of detail was a good thing.

It seems pretty clear that they seriously underestimated the time it would take to deliver stuff (there is an alternative reading of the events, but I'm not going there). It also seems clear that the December GA date was driven by marketing concerns rather than the game 'being ready', though exactly what 'ready' means is not clear.

However, I have been a software product manager for many years (business software, not games), and I can assure you that it is much harder to get things into the product after version 1.0 than in 1.0. There are things that were specified for the first version of my current product that were left out by development, that still have not been done 11 years later. Nevertheless they are still 'on the list' and may get there some time.

So my expectation is that they still want to deliver most of what is in the DDA, but they will take a long time on some of it, and other bits will never see the light of day.

FWIW, the DDF is almost dead. There was very little activity for several months, and whilst there are a few stirrings at the moment, the members of the DDF do not know any more than your average Joe Soap.

 

[Zvanya]

Looks like that's the case, so don't expect a dev answer. On the other hand you should expect some constructive replies such as

- Come back in six months
- The game is complete, so shut up you troll
- Use your imagination Captain Nemo
- My wife likes it, so who cares what you think

Thread closed

Thanks that was helpful.

 

[Zephyriel]

I see the DDA as an ideal target, which will probably never be completely reached. As the game progresses, some previously unplanned features will appear and make some stuff from the DDF obsolete, or some of the ideas will simply not be compatible with the way the game has evolved (cf. offline mode). Some others will simply be added, in due time. By sharing and discussing those advanced design documents, FD has simply been more transparent than other companies with their AAA games, which never reveal the entire features list before the game is actually released, precisely because they know some of the planned features won't make it because they dont work, or are above budget, and they don't want customers to complain that such or such feature is missing. Unfortunately, due to their transparency during early development, FD have positioned themselves at the mercy of such comments.

Also, it's likely that the expansions and the base-game content are (at least partially) being developped by different people, so that the base game will keep receiving new content while some devs work "in secret" on the expansions.

Considering all this, it's not fair nor logical to expect FD to deliver ALL of the DDA features before any expansion is released.

 

[Lobstris]

I think we're going to have to accept that all of the wonderful stuff 'on the big list' isn't going to happen . Heck it would be nice if 50% of it happens, but people will probably be moved on in a couple of months to making expansions to generate more revenue, rather than making the initial game what we all wanted to see. I honestly believe that, what stymied the game's development was the p2p multiplayer never working as intended, and having massive knock on effects to other things. This isn't a dig at Frontier, I'm not suggesting malice or whatever. I'm sure the Dev's wish it had turned out differently too. I still love the game and I'm still hoping it all comes together in the end.
.
I'm also aware of the irony that posts like this don't necessarily help so... all I can say is, Please Devs, go down the additional complexity/feature/simulation route, revisit the DDAs, add more layers, then bring back what's missing in E: D from Frontier and FFE, but above all make Elite 'Dangerous' and difficult again.

 

[Tinman]

You have asked this several times before and Michael have even given answers (even if they might not be as detailed as you wish).

The intention is that we'll be a bit more granular with what we intend looking at over the coming year. Some of that will be big announcements that will be handled in a suitable fashion, but also for the periodic updates to the game as the idea is to theme. Once the plan is a bit more solid and has been approved we'll share the bones of it.

Michael

Isn't that the Design Discussion forum?

That provides details on some of the design before implementation, but things change as they get implemented. It also doesn't say when a particular feature is planned.

Michael

.
.

Does this mean that stuff from the DDF will be implemented? Will we be getting persistent NPCs? A mineral scanner? A game that doesn`t feel like it was rushed out for Christmas?

Some of it will be, but there'll also be other things added.

Michael

Basically, the DDF is still there and based on what makes sense considering where the game is now in it's evolution they will take action accordingly. Some things from it will be implemented, some things have become redundant or might be replaced by something else (how people will travel around in wings is a good example) and some things not listed in the DDF will be added.

 

[Sanderson]

I see the DDA as an ideal target, which will probably never be completely reached. As the game progresses, some previously unplanned features will appear and make some stuff from the DDF obsolete, or some of the ideas will simply not be compatible with the way the game has evolved (cf. offline mode). Some others will simply be added, in due time. By sharing and discussing those advanced design documents, FD has simply been more transparent than other companies with their AAA games, which never reveal the entire features list before the game is actually released, precisely because they know some of the planned features won't make it because they dont work, or are above budget, and they don't want customers to complain that such or such feature is missing. Unfortunately, due to their transparency during early development, FD have positioned themselves at the mercy of such comments.

Also, it's likely that the expansions and the base-game content are (at least partially) being developped by different people, so that the base game will keep receiving new content while some devs work "in secret" on the expansions.

Considering all this, it's not fair nor logical to expect FD to deliver ALL of the DDA features before any expansion is released.

I think we're going to have to accept that all of the wonderful stuff 'on the big list' isn't going to happen . Heck it would be nice if 50% of it happens, but people will probably be moved on in a couple of months to making expansions to generate more revenue, rather than making the initial game what we all wanted to see. I honestly believe that, what stymied the game's development was the p2p multiplayer never working as intended, and having massive knock on effects to other things. This isn't a dig at Frontier, I'm not suggesting malice or whatever. I'm sure the Dev's wish it had turned out differently too. I still love the game and I'm still hoping it all comes together in the end.
.
I'm also aware of the irony that posts like this don't necessarily help so... all I can say is, Please Devs, go down the additional complexity/feature/simulation route, revisit the DDAs, add more layers, then bring back what's missing in E: D from Frontier and FFE, but above all make Elite 'Dangerous' and difficult again.

I agree. Problem is no one knows one way or the other.

 

[dannysquid]

I'm pretty sure most of the proposals in the DDF were presented in a "here's what we'd like to do" way. There was certainly never any sense that it was some sort of contractual commitment, not least because the design of any good game will change as it's implemented.

I wouldn't be surprised if Frontier are keeping their cards close to their chest simply because of the huge negative reaction ditching offline got them. If you don't promise things people don't feel entitled to anything and won't throw their toys out of the pram when they don't get it.

Is the DDF still properly active? With new stuff going in?

 

[Hadron-Higgs-Boson]

I'd like to hear from FD, the FD communication since launch has been pretty weak

 

[Tinman]

I'd like to hear from FD, the FD communication since launch has been pretty weak

It has!?

Devs (and especially Michael) being active here in the forum answering questions every single workday since they came back from the holidays.
Updates every week.
Development updates on the forum every Thursday.
Weekly newsletters.
The 1.1 release coming next week.

Yeah...they really need to step up their game!!

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

Is the DDF still properly active? With new stuff going in?

Sort of. There is currently a discussion about communications going on, but it has been there for some time and has pretty much run out of steam. And, of course, the announcement in the last dev update about exploring has generated some heat and light (aka has not been met with universal approval).

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

And, of course, the announcement in the last dev update about exploring has generated some heat and light (aka has not been met with universal approval).

You can say that again

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

You can say that again

And, of course, the announcement in the last dev update about exploring has generated some heat and light (aka has not been met with universal approval).

 

[Enride]

Aah, the mythical "vertical slice"!
That was hilarious prerelease.

 

[Lobstris]

I'm pretty sure most of the proposals in the DDF were presented in a "here's what we'd like to do" way. There was certainly never any sense that it was some sort of contractual commitment, not least because the design of any good game will change as it's implemented.

I'd like to think that most of the people in the DDF would be mature enough to understand that, whatever went on, it was never a contractual commitment and things change in development. However, what is (with hindsight) annoying is the fact that too many of us fell into the trap of 'defending' the game as it developed to new people asking 'what's this game about?' questions, with responses like 'look in the DDAs - it will be like that'. I don't recall any instances of a Dev. adding any cautionary statement warning against such behaviour, as a sticky as to the forums. Indeed, a lot of the gnashing and wailing of teeth has come from people believing in the whole 'there'll be more in Alpha 2/3/4/Prem Beta 1/2/Beta/Gamma/'Vertical Slice'' fallacy - which also could have been nipped in the bud, with a more honest 'what you see is what you get' statement.
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Anyway, I'm being too retrospective, when the thread topic is on 'what's the purpose of the DDA/DDF now?' - which Tinman has handily collated statements on.

 

[Lestenio]

What's the official word on the DDF/DDA? Anyone know?

Again, since the DDF/DDA is a "wishlist" has any of those wishes been marked off as probably never going to make it in the game? Has any been marked as "at some point we'll flesh it out and put them in" ? It's all very confusing right now as no one, including FD, seems to know what the heck is going on. Certainly us, the paying customers, don't beyond the proposed 1.1/1.2 patches that'll hopefully be released in the next 8 two months.

1.1 due Feb
1.2 due March

Where is 8 months coming from?

Just becasue they haven't shared their plans, doesn't mean they don't have one. They are under no obligation to share any road map information with us.

 

[Jezzah]

The DDF Hmmm. The three letter abbreviation that dare not speak it's name. If it comes about it would be amazing. As it is its drip feeding insufficient anaemic features now and then is a shame.