Which shield booster mod should I go for? Details inside.

[XW_Ziggy]

Raw numbers and effective megajoules will always favour stacking heavy boosters until you have so many boosters that 17% resistance makes more difference than another 65% booster.

However, in terms of gameplay you don't rely solely on the shield generator; If you're using an SCBs, resistances improves the SCB too and resistance boosters keeps the weight down and regen/rebuild times down compared to a heavy booster.

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

Viper Mk IV vs human ships, both NPCs and players. (mostly NPCs)

I've got a 4C bi-weave, thermal resistant. A single A-rated booster. What mod do you reckon would see more benefits? Heavy or resistance? I already have a heavy, but that's for Thargoids where resistance is meaningless.

I would recommand bi-weave shields with thermal resist mod (kinetic special) and one A-booster heavy duty mod (kinetic special or shield strength special) with an additionally E or A-booster resistance augmented (kinetic special).

This way you get equal resistances with a good portion of MJ that still regenerate very fast so that you can take advantage of the strong Hull from the Viper MK.IV

As additional utilitys i would recommand a chaff and a reinforced point defense
Also i would not recommand in PvE an SCB because the shields and hull (reactive surface composites) are strong enough to sustain a lot of fire (if they manage to hit).
In PvP i wouldn't recommand the Viper MK.IV at all

Fast recharge absolutely the way to go on a Viper IV along with most other small ships and hybrid hull tanks.

Regen and broken regen were the holy grail of bi-weave Engineering in 2.4. It’s so nice to have it easily available in 3.0!

Yes, better reg-rate and rep-rate eould be nice.....if the Viper MK.IV only would have a better power distributor. Bi-weaves drain doen the sys-capacitor already fast, with 15% increased reg-rate, the sys-capacitor will also drain 15% faster. Sometimes people forget about that.

That's why i would not recommand the faster reg rate special since the power distributor just can't support that. Even with 4 pips it will drain empty at 3/4 shield reintegration

 

[Frenotx]

Well yes, but that's because the base shield is stronger when using heavy duty (so it takes more power to recharge). But this also means that the shield won't go down so quickly in the first place (so you have longer shield up time as well as longer shield down time).

Look man, all I can do is provide advice. It's up to you to follow it. I'd type up a more numbers-heavy post, but I'm on my phone lying in bed. I'm also tired and grouchy. I basically wrote the book on how shields work, at least initially. I'm largely the reason we use the unit MJ when discussing shield capacities. I've spent considerable amounts of time comparing builds, both theoretically and functionally. I'm extremely experienced with the viper iv, specifically. I don't normally like to toot my own horn like this, but this is so incredibly in my very specific wheelhouse that I can't help but speak up. That video I linked has my exact build in the description. Using that and watching the video, you can calculate roughly how much damage hit me. If you do the math, you'll see that in an extended fight with lots of incoming damage, a resistance-oriented build will give you more overall effective health on ships with small shields than a capacity-based heavy duty build will.

 

[Frenotx]

Fast recharge absolutely the way to go on a Viper IV along with most other small ships and hybrid hull tanks.

Regen and broken regen were the holy grail of bi-weave Engineering in 2.4. It’s so nice to have it easily available in 3.0!

While the recharge experimental is great, don't discount the efficiency one either. If your capacitor and typical pip settings while fighting can easily keep up with the recharge, then yes, recharge all the way. If the capacitor struggles at all though (due to needing pips elsewhere, or having a small PD), the efficiency experimental can give you more bang for your buck. I have found the efficiency experimental to be lovely on the viper IV exactly for those reasons. Gives me more pip flexibility, and makes it easier to maintain my shield.

 

[Crank Larson]

Look man, all I can do is provide advice. It's up to you to follow it. I'd type up a more numbers-heavy post, but I'm on my phone lying in bed. I'm also tired and grouchy. I basically wrote the book on how shields work, at least initially. I'm largely the reason we use the unit MJ when discussing shield capacities. I've spent considerable amounts of time comparing builds, both theoretically and functionally. I'm extremely experienced with the viper iv, specifically. I don't normally like to toot my own horn like this, but this is so incredibly in my very specific wheelhouse that I can't help but speak up. That video I linked has my exact build in the description. Using that and watching the video, you can calculate roughly how much damage hit me. If you do the math, you'll see that in an extended fight with lots of incoming damage, a resistance-oriented build will give you more overall effective health on ships with small shields than a capacity-based heavy duty build will.

Pretty sure that FD wrote the book on how shields work. I was interested in an explanation, rather than a CV. Mathematically, if the regen rate is the same (which it is), then you want to go for the shield combination that gives you greatest protection for each of the damage types - and in this case, it will be the heavy duty. The only reason that you are getting different regen rates is because you are calculating it backwards, as far as I can see - and the only conclusion from that is that small shields regenerate quicker (which is obvious). However, if the regen rate is the same for two shields, then the only difference is that the smaller shield will go up and down more often than the bigger one - it doesn't provide better protection overall.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

While the recharge experimental is great, don't discount the efficiency one either. If your capacitor and typical pip settings while fighting can easily keep up with the recharge, then yes, recharge all the way. If the capacitor struggles at all though (due to needing pips elsewhere, or having a small PD), the efficiency experimental can give you more bang for your buck. I have found the efficiency experimental to be lovely on the viper IV exactly for those reasons. Gives me more pip flexibility, and makes it easier to maintain my shield.

Never considered that one. Noted!

 

[IndigoWyrd]

As one viper IV pilot to another, I suggest resistance augmented with the resistance experimental. The thing's shield is small. Get used to it going down, but coming back up. Get comfortable taking hull damage, and putting pips in SYS as needed to rebuild the shield as quickly as possible. Resistance augmented gives you the best effective recharge rate.
https://youtu.be/xTBV4LoADgk

I rather agree with Fren here. Here's a little more from my way of thinking:

A 4C Bi-Weave and a 0A booster Resistance modded is going to give you 218 Mj of shielding.
A 4C Bi-Weave and a 0A booster Heavy Duty modded is going to give you 284 Mj of shielding.

So you're either getting hit for less damage and broken shields come back up faster, or your able to take more "normal" damage, and broken shields will take a little longer to regenerate.

 

[StiTch]

Pretty sure that FD wrote the book on how shields work. I was interested in an explanation, rather than a CV. Mathematically, if the regen rate is the same (which it is), then you want to go for the shield combination that gives you greatest protection for each of the damage types - and in this case, it will be the heavy duty. The only reason that you are getting different regen rates is because you are calculating it backwards, as far as I can see - and the only conclusion from that is that small shields regenerate quicker (which is obvious). However, if the regen rate is the same for two shields, then the only difference is that the smaller shield will go up and down more often than the bigger one - it doesn't provide better protection overall.

*rubs face in disbelief* you are conceptualising this as though the resistance figure is just some aesthetic number with no purpose.

If you have 50% resistances and you regenerate 100mj shield per 10 seconds, it will take the equivalent of 200mj damage to bring it down, because you resist half of it. It regens to 100mj, it takes 200mj equivalent damage to bring it down again. Ergo for every 10 seconds, you get 200mj damage reduction from shields.

You have 0% resistances and regenerate 100mj shield per 10 seconds. It will take the equivalent of 100mj damage to bring it down, because you have no resistance. Ergo every 10 seconds, you gain the equivalent of 100mj damage reduction from shields.

As you established, regen rate is the same - so whether you have a bigger shield is irrelevant (well, less relevant).

If ya can't walk away with the understanding following this, it's probably safer to leave ya in ignorance tbh.

 

[Crank Larson]

*rubs face in disbelief* you are calculating this as though the resistance figure is just some aesthetic number with no purpose.

Not in the slightest. The way EDShipyard shows the effect of resistances is by multiplying the base shield value by the resistance. This gives you your shield value per damage type. These are the important numbers (and are obviously affected by the resistance modification).

If you have 50% resistances and you regenerate 100mj shield per 10 seconds, it will take the equivalent of 200mj damage to bring it down, because you resist half of it. It regens to 100mj, it takes 200mj equivalent damage to bring it down again. Ergo for every 10 seconds, you get 200mj damage reduction from shields.

You have 0% resistances and regenerate 100mj shield per 10 seconds. It will take the equivalent of 100mj damage to bring it down, because you have no resistance. Ergo every 10 seconds, you gain the equivalent of 100mj damage reduction from shields.

As you established, regen rate is the same - so whether you have a bigger shield is irrelevant.

If ya can't walk away with the understanding following this, it's probably safer to leave ya in ignorance tbh.

But the bigger values for resistance are relevant, and it is those that I am comparing (as per my second post in this thread). I agree (and have stated) that the size of the shield is irrelevant, but in this case a heavy duty gives you more resistance as the increase in base shield is more than you gain compared to if you just increase the resistance percentages (so those lower resistance modifications are applying to a much higher base value).

 

[Frenotx]

Pretty sure that FD wrote the book on how shields work. I was interested in an explanation, rather than a CV. Mathematically, if the regen rate is the same (which it is), then you want to go for the shield combination that gives you greatest protection for each of the damage types - and in this case, it will be the heavy duty. The only reason that you are getting different regen rates is because you are calculating it backwards, as far as I can see - and the only conclusion from that is that small shields regenerate quicker (which is obvious). However, if the regen rate is the same for two shields, then the only difference is that the smaller shield will go up and down more often than the bigger one - it doesn't provide better protection overall.

Ok. I'm at my desktop now, so I can give you numbers. First, let's consider the heavy duty build. This is with a single booster, providing 58% shield boost:

Heavy Duty
	Absolute	Thermal	Kinetic	Explosive
Regen Rate	1.80	3.00	2.40	3.61
Broken Regen	3.80	6.34	5.07	7.61
Health	287.0	479.0	383.0	575.0

First data column is the absolute numbers. The following three columns are the effective health, after considering resistances. That's how much damage of the given damage type it would take to break the shield. Just like shield health, we can also calculate effective recharge rates. Yes you're only regenerating 1.8MJ of absolute shielding, but because of resistances, that's effectively 3/2.4/3.61 MJ of shielding when facing thermal, kinetic, and explosive attacks respectively.

Now let's look at a resistance build. This is with a single grade-A booster, providing 20% shield boost, and 17% resistances across the board:

Resistance Augmented
	Absolute	Thermal	Kinetic	Explosive
Regen Rate	1.80	3.62	2.89	4.34
Broken Regen	3.80	7.63	6.10	9.17
Health	218.0	438.0	350.0	526.0

You'll notice that all the health values are lower, especially the absolute health. You'll also notice that the absolute regen rate is the same: 1.8. The important thing here though are the effective recharge rates. 3.62 vs 3 (20% better), 2.89 vs. 2.4 (20% better), and 4.34 vs. 3.61 (20% better). Since the viper IV is a small maneuverable ship with a relatively small speed, recharge rate is extremely important. Since a resistance augmented booster gives you 20% faster effective recharge rate, I find it to be the superior option for the ship. In a prolonged fight, the increased effective recharge rate can fairly quickly outstrip the benefit of a higher starting capacity. Once the extra capacity offered by the heavy duty booster has been depleted (which doesn't take that long, since the shield is still fairly small), its contribution to the rest of the fight is extremely limited. A resistance augmented booster continues to provide extra durability for every moment the shield is up.

In a small ship (like the viper IV) whos shield is likely going to drop and reform several times in a serious fight, starting out with slightly more shielding is nowhere near as important as having a higher recharge rate.

 

[Crank Larson]

Ok. I'm at my desktop now, so I can give you numbers. First, let's consider the heavy duty build.

Thanks for taking the time to explain properly, it is appreciated.

However, I still don't agree with the maths. I am going to do some calculations and experimentation myself, and will post back once done.

 

[Frenotx]

Thanks for taking the time to explain properly, it is appreciated.

However, I still don't agree with the maths. I am going to do some calculations and experimentation myself, and will post back once done.

Knock yourself out. I'm always happy to be proven wrong, as that both means I've learned something and improved my performance in-game.

 

[NeilF]

I suggest resistance augmented with the resistance experimental.

Why do I just read this sort of thing these days... Consider the deep and realistic sounding game I envisaged back at Kickstarter... And now just groan...

More and more and more layers of pointless number juggling and special "magic" side effects being added to ship stats... And yet here we are 3-4yrs on, still doing basically the same placeholder gameplay... God I'm getting cynical! [Sorry]

 

[Crank Larson]

More and more and more layers of pointless number juggling being added to ship stats...

Statistics are by and large just number juggling... Some of us actually enjoy this aspect of E: D and the thought that we put into building our ships. Why do you suggest this is a placeholder? It's one of the few parts of the game that is essentially complete! Even if you don't enjoy this side of things, it doesn't mean it is pointless.

 

[StiTch]

Statistics are by and large just number juggling... Some of us actually enjoy this aspect of E: D and the thought that we put into building our ships. Why do you suggest this is a placeholder? It's one of the few parts of the game that is essentially complete! Even if you don't enjoy this side of things, it doesn't mean it is pointless.

Quite. For all the noise around grinding for engineers etc., I take the time to remind people that before engineers, meta PvP was "silent rail-de-lance or go home", and PvE was largely "couple of pulse lazors and couple of MCs". Now...okay yeah, rails are still important, but we actually have variety in what we can employ.

What feels wrong is that we're in a multiplayer game, but FD treats the balancing for engineers as though we're in some hack n' slash where we're expected to have dramatically inflated stats and wipe out several opponents per attack.

At least the recent changes mean said dramatic inflation is in line with one another. Unless one has previous god modules. Which I have. And am not happy about that.

 

[NeilF]

Statistics are by and large just number juggling... Some of us actually enjoy this aspect of E: D and the thought that we put into building our ships. Why do you suggest this is a placeholder? It's one of the few parts of the game that is essentially complete! Even if you don't enjoy this side of things, it doesn't mean it is pointless.

The 3-4 year old "place holder" gameplay being - although we have time galore for The Engineers to create a balancing headache - the same exploration, mining, bounty hunting, combat zone etc mini-game mechanics we've had for 3-4 years...

ie: Two years ago you could outfit a ship and go and do ingame gameplay with it. Two years on, you can now Engineer it with The Engineers V2, and now apply a myriad of other upgrades and weapons to it, and.... then basically go back to the same mini-game mechanics we've had for 3-4 years...

I see The Engineers and everything else in its footsteps as little more than a distraction and time sponge. Meanwhile 3-4 years on and what gameplay depth of note is being added. I was tired of many of the shallow gameplay elements/mechanics two years ago, and simply needlessly raising up the performance bar of ships with The Engineers does nothing to address that.

I have these magic side effects to try and counter your magic side effects. But if you have these magic side effects then I'll need these ones instead. *sigh*

Anyhoo... I apologise for going off topic. It's just Engineering does my head in enough given its terrible balancing and application. And side effects just underline the issue IMHO. Roll on Q4 - It has a lot to live up IMHO...

I'll stop ranting now!

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Rant aside, this has proved to be a good thread. I shall read it in more detail later whilst I collect Powerplay commodities.

 

[Only Mostly Here]

I'm with frenotx here - resistance augmented is the way to go with biweaves on a small ship. Using the numbers frenotx gives us, it takes only about 31 seconds of broken regen (maybe 1 shield reform cycle) for the resistant build to make up its EHP deficit vs the heavy duty one against thermal weapons. Against kinetics, it is 32 seconds, against explosive it is again 31 seconds. So a mere half a minute of recharge against anything except absolute damage results in the resistant build getting pure benefits - and that's without taking into account any SCB usage. This alongside the fact that a smaller overall shield pool means it'll take less time for shields to reform - thus giving you the benefits of your broken regen rate sooner per shield drop than a heavy duty setup.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Why do I just read this sort of thing these days... Consider the deep and realistic sounding game I envisaged back at Kickstarter... And now just groan...

https://i.imgur.com/LMwhPxF.jpg

More and more and more layers of pointless number juggling and special "magic" side effects being added to ship stats... And yet here we are 3-4yrs on, still doing basically the same placeholder gameplay... God I'm getting cynical! [Sorry]

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Does anyone have any thoughts on a thermal resist shield with the force block/kinetic experimental effect added?

That gives resistances of 33.8/40/50.
Seems to be the "flattest" combination available, but is that mitigated by lower resistances compared to the resistance mod?