Powerplay Who really controls/owns a system?

[Der Zeitgeist]

Hi everyone,

I just started with the actual release version of ED after playing a bit around during Beta. One question that came up pretty soon, after checking the Powerplay tab in the Galaxy Map, was the question of system control and ownership. The Powerplay tab nicely shows the influence of different factions, but there seems to be some inconsistency between control of systems in Powerplay and system ownership/allegiance in the regular system info tab:

In this example, the system BD-22 3573 seems to be owned by the Federation while simultaneously being controlled by Edmund Mahon of the Alliance. So who actually has control over this system?

 

[FunGas]

all your system are belong to FunGas

but I think the alliegance is for the stations in that system, which can be either per system

 

[Apos]

The system is governed according to the federal laws of the faction that rules it, but it pays its taxes to Mahon.

 

[goemon]

powerplay control/exploit and major faction allegiance is not connected. an imperial power can control a federal system, as can an independent power.

that said, i have no idea what "controlled/exploited" means in pp terms, but i assume that the controlling/exploiting power get profit - maybe like major players (companies) in our time get profits by rebuilding infrastructure in post-war states, or have more easy hand in any economic big deal in some parts of the world.

 

[fergal]

A minor faction owns a system.
Some minor factions are part of a major faction (federation, alliance, empire) which means the major faction "owns" the system.

The 10 Powers sit to the side of this, they influence the systems, but don't actually own them.
Different Powers effect their control system and exploited systems differently, but they don't own any of these systems.

All of the ships, except for the agent ships (Torval Shield, Federal Agent, etc), are owned by a minor faction. Killing them (such as Kumo Crew Transports) harms your reputation with the minor faction.
You have no reputation with the 10 Powers. Killing or not killing their ships changes nothing to how they view you.

 

[JessieColt]

A controlling PP Faction is the overseer of the system. They are the ones who collect "taxes" (CC) for the 15ly bubble around the Control System.

The Control System is the center point of the 15ly bubble. Each system within that 15ly bubble is an Exploited system that contributes a small amount of money(CC) to the Control System for total.

If you are from the US, you can kinda think of it in terms of state politics.

I will use California as an example. Keeping in mind that this is a very simplistic example, since a state governor would oversee all cities in his state, and not just selected ones.

The Governor may be a Democrat, but the Mayors of the various cities could be Republican, Democrat, Independent, etc.

So the hierarchy would break down like this:

Governor (Mahon)

Control System - Los Angeles
Exploited System - Burbank
Exploited System - Beverly Hills
Exploited System - Brentwood


Control System - San Francisco
Exploited System - Alameda
Exploited System - Berkley
Exploited System - Daly City


Mahon is the general overseer of the various Control Systems. His "Politics" determine how things are run, in an general sense, in the systems that he oversees. He does not have fine control over the systems, only general control.

In Mahon's Control Systems, depending on the "ruling faction" (Fed, Alliance, Empire) his goodies are adjusted. You might see a massive increase in production of farmed goods, but because of the over production, the cost to buy the goods are reduced. Or you might see a massive decrease in farmed goods, increasing their price per ton.

This is good for Traders, because they can buy farm goods from a system that has a price reduction, and sell them in a system that has a price increase to make more money per ton for the goods hauled.

Control Systems are the main hub of the region. In the example above, Los Angeles is a Control System. Each "town" (Exploited system) within 15ly's around the main
City (Controlled System) contributes a small amount of taxes (CC) to pay for upkeep.

Exploited Systems may only contribute 1 or 2 CC, but add up all of the populated systems in the 15ly bubble around the Control System and you can end up with a CC income of 160 CC, or you could end up with an income of -4 (meaning it costs more to pay for upkeep then what the system generates in income).

Each Control System will have its own political base, determined by whomever controls the largest/HUB station for the system.

Back to the example above, Los Angeles may have a Mayor that is Republican, while the Governor (Mahon) is a Democrat. Even though the City (Control System) is run by a different political party, they are still under the general control of the Governor and pay "taxes" (CC) to the state (Mahon).

Individual systems will have controls based on who they are aligned with. This is the "fine control" I mentioned above.

If the control system aligns with how Mahon does with ruling government types, the cost to Fortify the system (keep it in control) goes down. Mahon is strong against Corporate Systems. So it should cost less to fortify any control system who's ruling faction is a Corporation, regardless of the faction that they are aligned with.

He is weaker against Patronage Ruled Systems. So any Control System who's local controlling faction is a Patronage Government Type will require more fortification materials to maintain.

If you were able to flip control of the system from a Democracy to a Corporate Government Type, you should be able to lower the fortification requirement for the system, making it easier to fortify (Cost less in Materials).

 

[goemon]

If you are from the US, you can kinda think of it in terms of state politics.

I'm not from the US, but your exampel make me understand pp things much better. +rep!

 

[Iracundus]

The major factions are so big that they cannot be everywhere at once to enforce their overarching national/federal laws all the time over every system. The powers are like the unofficial "powers behind the throne", or like that businessman in a small town that holds as much unofficial power as the official mayor even though that businessman holds no public office. So to use the example by the OP, the system may officially fly the Federation flag and have Federation local government officials, but Mahon's agents have blackmailed, bribed, or lobbied hard enough that they exert influence that can affect the system's economy. In Mahon's case, that appears to be discouragement of agriculture related production and consumption, and perhaps policies that encourage importation of agricultural goods (such as from the Alliance). That is how I justify the legalization of Imperial slaves in Federation systems for example. The Imperial power exerts such influence on the local government that local law enforcement officials effectively look the other way all the time, and though technically still a "black market" under Federation law, the local Imperial slave market is so widespread that it is de facto legal and in the open.

"Taxes" may also not be entirely accurate when it comes to CC. From what I understand, CC is an abstract concept representing military, covert, social, as well as financial resources. So Aisling Duval's CC may also represent things like social media word of mouth, propaganda events, advertising on general media, donations and charity drives that all add up to the net effect of bolstering support for her and making it easier for other systems to also cave in to the social pressure to pay attention to her ideals. Similarly turmoil & losing a system for her may mean that her image has grown stale to the people of those systems and they stop paying attention to her, at least to the point where her cause derives no benefit.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

A controlling PP Faction is the overseer of the system. They are the ones who collect "taxes" (CC) for the 15ly bubble around the Control System.

The problem that arise here is Intergalacic Politics - let's use the US from your example as a well...example.

Lets say that Arissay Lavigny Duval is in control of a Federation system.

1. Arissa is an Imperial HEIR
2. Arissa is a senator of a FOREIGN NATION
3. Arissa is a staunch follower of Law & Order and anti-Corruption
4. Regardless of No.3 she sends her agents and create revolutions by exposing corruption in a non-imperial system where she lacks jurisdiction
5. She then sends in her private FLEETS to attack federation law enforcement (might be corrupt, might be falsified reports)
6. The federation completely ignores the fact that a foreign power has taken control and influence over a system.

It's like having a russian oligarch becoming a senator in South Carolina and taking orders from Putin and Obama is Ok with that.

The entire system is BROKEN if there are no political storms in the game over this.

Hell, it should very well be a reason to declare WAR if anything.

 

[Der Zeitgeist]

Thanks for all your replies, guys!

With your input and some further reading I think I now have a good handle about how it works ingame.

However, I still think that control of a system by one of the Powers and system allegiance to one of the 3 major factions should somehow be merged. As Snarfbuckle explained, it doesn't really make much sense lore-wise how it currently works.

 

[fergal]

Thanks for all your replies, guys!

With your input and some further reading I think I now have a good handle about how it works ingame.

However, I still think that control of a system by one of the Powers and system allegiance to one of the 3 major factions should somehow be merged. As Snarfbuckle explained, it doesn't really make much sense lore-wise how it currently works.

The 3 major Factions hardly exist from a game mechanic point of view any more.

Originally the federation, empire and alliance were bounty sharing regions. If you were wanted in one of their systems, you were wanted in all of them.

When bounties were changed to their current state, you are only wanted by local factions, which means, although you see the words empire, federation and alliance, they don't mean anything.

You do however have a rank with the empire and federation, so any minor faction that is part of the empire or federation could offer you naval promotion missions.

Thats it. Thats all the federation and empire are, a collection of systems that might offer you a naval mission.

The alliance doesn't even have that, so doesn't actually do anything in the game.

 

[Iracundus]

The problem that arise here is Intergalacic Politics - let's use the US from your example as a well...example.

Lets say that Arissay Lavigny Duval is in control of a Federation system.

1. Arissa is an Imperial HEIR
2. Arissa is a senator of a FOREIGN NATION
3. Arissa is a staunch follower of Law & Order and anti-Corruption
4. Regardless of No.3 she sends her agents and create revolutions by exposing corruption in a non-imperial system where she lacks jurisdiction
5. She then sends in her private FLEETS to attack federation law enforcement (might be corrupt, might be falsified reports)
6. The federation completely ignores the fact that a foreign power has taken control and influence over a system.

It's like having a russian oligarch becoming a senator in South Carolina and taking orders from Putin and Obama is Ok with that.

The entire system is BROKEN if there are no political storms in the game over this.

Hell, it should very well be a reason to declare WAR if anything.

All of the major factions are not as tightly centralized as a modern nation-state is IRL now. That is why there are local factions that are in states of civil war and exchanging control of stations through armed warfare. That would be like different towns having running gun battles with each other.

The looseness of the government is why there is such widespread proliferation of heavily armed spaceships in the hands of individuals that are free to bounty hunt, pirate, or blow away authority vessels in systems, and largely get away with it.

Powerplay control should not be construed as actually flying the flag of one nation or another. It is more backdoor and unofficial influence. It would be more like the oligarch having a politician in their pocket through bribes, blackmail, or favors owed, and then this legally elected politician enacting policies beneficial to the interests of the oligarch's backer.

 

[edgar]

PP makes more sense to me when I link it to how mafias, spy agencies, or transnational corporations function in the real world:

A Mafia organisation can exert control over, and exploit, a sphere of influence like an industry or a neighbourhood, existing in parallel with the "official" government or regimes in the area, allowed to act with impunity by using methods in keeping with its "ethos" (bribery, threats of violence, etc). Perhaps this is how the Kumo Crew can "Control" or "Exploit" Federation, Empire etc systems, the nature of Control or Exploitation is specific to the Power in question and its Ethos.

So an entity could "control" or "exploit" an area in different ways, depending on the nature of the entity:

Something like an intelligence agency, for example Mossad, may undertake operations in other territory, to the extent that they could act with such freedom, due to dominating the local spies or internal security or w/e, that they may consider certain foreign cities to be under their "control".

This could also be true for Corporations, for example a powerful Corp could own so many factories, companies, ancillary services, private security, etc, in a town, that they could "control" the town via soft-power (planning applications always approved, legal violations always ignored by local police).

Powerful celebrities, lobby groups, and other prominent individuals and entities could also exert varied types of Power that could translate into PP Control or Exploitation (extend this interpretation into Fortification, Preparation etc and things start making more sense, at least to me).

It's a pity IMO that the gamey universal terms used like "CC", "Control", "Fortification" etc, in PP aren't replaced / hidden behind more natural sounding terms that could be specifically keyed to each specific Power instead.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Powerplay control should not be construed as actually flying the flag of one nation or another. It is more backdoor and unofficial influence. It would be more like the oligarch having a politician in their pocket through bribes, blackmail, or favors owed, and then this legally elected politician enacting policies beneficial to the interests of the oligarch's backer.

And yet, foreign militia forces from Arissa Lavigny Duval under the guise of what? Concerned citizens attack the local police forces?

Considering how "open" all the powerplay influences and system controls are it seems that all factions are very aware of what is going on and are playing a live version of RISK.

Even IF it was only influence over the governing body of another system should not Zachary Hudson get rather off when Arissa Lavigny Duval subvert one of his systems and steal taxes, change local laws and completely undermines his authority?

If it was only a game about subterfuge it would be one thing but we have privately owned FLEETS attacking systems to "covertly" control them.

And that can even be MILITARY fleets if it is Zachary Hudson VS Denton Patreus and that itself should be a diplomatic disaster since on of these "suberfuge" and "secret" ops to influence a system is THE bona fide Federation Navy in action vs an imperial senators private fleet.

Powerplay is a weird alternative universe to the Elite Dangerous universe since they should damn well influence each other completely.

If Denton Patreus starts military strike conflict zones within Zachary Hudsons owned and controlled Federation systems (not powerplay, simply FEDERATION) then we already have intergalactic war between two star nations.

And are those military strikes even condoned and allowed by the Emperor?

Which brings another topic, the RANK of each faction leader.

Zachary Hudson - Leader of the Federation (the Equivalent of the Emperor of Achenar)
Li Yong-Rui - A company CEO doing business takeover of systems (Basically a military version of Apple)
Denton Patreus - A militarized version of Donald Trump with an army to command and is not telling Obama about what he is doing.

 

[Matzov]

A controlling PP Faction is the overseer of the system. They are the ones who collect "taxes" (CC) for the 15ly bubble around the Control System.

The Control System is the center point of the 15ly bubble. Each system within that 15ly bubble is an Exploited system that contributes a small amount of money(CC) to the Control System for total.

If you are from the US, you can kinda think of it in terms of state politics.

I will use California as an example. Keeping in mind that this is a very simplistic example, since a state governor would oversee all cities in his state, and not just selected ones.

The Governor may be a Democrat, but the Mayors of the various cities could be Republican, Democrat, Independent, etc.

So the hierarchy would break down like this:

Governor (Mahon)

Control System - Los Angeles
Exploited System - Burbank
Exploited System - Beverly Hills
Exploited System - Brentwood


Control System - San Francisco
Exploited System - Alameda
Exploited System - Berkley
Exploited System - Daly City


Mahon is the general overseer of the various Control Systems. His "Politics" determine how things are run, in an general sense, in the systems that he oversees. He does not have fine control over the systems, only general control.

In Mahon's Control Systems, depending on the "ruling faction" (Fed, Alliance, Empire) his goodies are adjusted. You might see a massive increase in production of farmed goods, but because of the over production, the cost to buy the goods are reduced. Or you might see a massive decrease in farmed goods, increasing their price per ton.

This is good for Traders, because they can buy farm goods from a system that has a price reduction, and sell them in a system that has a price increase to make more money per ton for the goods hauled.

Control Systems are the main hub of the region. In the example above, Los Angeles is a Control System. Each "town" (Exploited system) within 15ly's around the main
City (Controlled System) contributes a small amount of taxes (CC) to pay for upkeep.

Exploited Systems may only contribute 1 or 2 CC, but add up all of the populated systems in the 15ly bubble around the Control System and you can end up with a CC income of 160 CC, or you could end up with an income of -4 (meaning it costs more to pay for upkeep then what the system generates in income).

Each Control System will have its own political base, determined by whomever controls the largest/HUB station for the system.

Back to the example above, Los Angeles may have a Mayor that is Republican, while the Governor (Mahon) is a Democrat. Even though the City (Control System) is run by a different political party, they are still under the general control of the Governor and pay "taxes" (CC) to the state (Mahon).

Individual systems will have controls based on who they are aligned with. This is the "fine control" I mentioned above.

If the control system aligns with how Mahon does with ruling government types, the cost to Fortify the system (keep it in control) goes down. Mahon is strong against Corporate Systems. So it should cost less to fortify any control system who's ruling faction is a Corporation, regardless of the faction that they are aligned with.

He is weaker against Patronage Ruled Systems. So any Control System who's local controlling faction is a Patronage Government Type will require more fortification materials to maintain.

If you were able to flip control of the system from a Democracy to a Corporate Government Type, you should be able to lower the fortification requirement for the system, making it easier to fortify (Cost less in Materials).

Excellent example.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

A controlling PP Faction is the overseer of the system. They are the ones who collect "taxes" (CC) for the 15ly bubble around the Control System.

Even if we go by the idea that "control" is more about influence and not actual ownership it still flies in the face of logic.

Lets us the US as an example.

-Russian Oligarch controls South Carolina
-Russian Oligarch takes order from Putin in Russia
-Russian Oligarch collect taxes from US citizens in South Carolina and gives to Putin
-Obama is ok with it because he takes taxes from Siberia...

That just makes it MORE wrong.

Would any country allow a foreign nation to collect taxes and use those taxes to undermine their power?

No matter how one twists it Powerplay completely ignores nation boundaries and intergalactic borders or even common diplomatic sense when it is ok to send in fleets into conflict zones you have creates inside another major factions backyard and starts shooting at their ships.

 

[Iracundus]

Even if we go by the idea that "control" is more about influence and not actual ownership it still flies in the face of logic.

Lets us the US as an example.

-Russian Oligarch controls South Carolina
-Russian Oligarch takes order from Putin in Russia
-Russian Oligarch collect taxes from US citizens in South Carolina and gives to Putin
-Obama is ok with it because he takes taxes from Siberia...

That just makes it MORE wrong.

Would any country allow a foreign nation to collect taxes and use those taxes to undermine their power?

No matter how one twists it Powerplay completely ignores nation boundaries and intergalactic borders or even common diplomatic sense when it is ok to send in fleets into conflict zones you have creates inside another major factions backyard and starts shooting at their ships.

And despite saying it is about influence, your example is not and again is about more explicit control. Collecting CC in game terms is not necessarily the same as going around collecting actual taxes from the people living in an area.

ALD exerting influence in a Federation system increases security level. That can be done through persuading local politicians to give more funding to the local police. Perfectly legal action done by the duly elected officials of a Federation system.

CC collection can be the result of legal business dealings. A local Federation company can close a deal with the Federation government for say garbage collection. The local Fed company that has as a major stakeholder, a local Federation citizen that happens to buy services from other companies, that ultimately via many layers leads back to ALD. Yet it all can be perfectly legal business transactions, with no violations of any laws.

CC collection can be pressure on local media companies to do more investigative reporting on corruption in local systems. In this case, CC is not monetary but still ultimately helps prepare other systems for ALD to exert influence over. Again, the choice for a media company to run more stories on certain aspects of the news is a perfectly legal decision that the Federation cannot openly object to.

You need to stop thinking of CC as literally a foreign tax collector going around.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

You need to stop thinking of CC as literally a foreign tax collector going around.

Gladly, where is that explained by FD ANYWHERE since we are all arguing guesswork here.

You would not have a reasonable explanation why each faction are completely murderous ats that wants us to go to other systems and kill everyone who do not follow our faction?

Take Denton Patreus whose very description talks about money, enslaving worlds and using a private fleet to do so.

Senator Denton Patreus
The Senator from Eotienses is a leading figure in the Imperial Senate and commands much respect from his fellow nobles. Albeit comparatively young, his charisma and influence render him a serious candidate for the throne, whose succession he considers no longer about blood, but merit. The Senator owns a sizable network of corporations as well as one of the largest private fleets in the Empire, and has in the past used the latter to enforce financial claims on other worlds, enslaving their population for debts accrued by the government.Patreus is allied with Zemina Torval, but has no qualms about covertly chipping away at her pocket empire should the opportunity present itself.

I would LIKE to think its all cloak and daggers but the mechanics and faction descriptions hardly gives us a good case for that to be true.

Im sure SOME factions work behind the lines like Li Yong-Rui but a large amount of them are literally having their private little wars in other star nations borders.

 

[Iracundus]

Gladly, where is that explained by FD ANYWHERE since we are all arguing guesswork here.

You would not have a reasonable explanation why each faction are completely murderous ats that wants us to go to other systems and kill everyone who do not follow our faction?

Take Denton Patreus whose very description talks about money, enslaving worlds and using a private fleet to do so.


I would LIKE to think its all cloak and daggers but the mechanics and faction descriptions hardly gives us a good case for that to be true.

Im sure SOME factions work behind the lines like Li Yong-Rui but a large amount of them are literally having their private little wars in other star nations borders.

The definition of CC in the Powerplay manual shows it is not just about collecting money :

Each power uses a resource called command capital [CC] to pay for its endeavours. CC represents a combination of financial, political and social weight that can be channelled into use by the power.

Also this is a universe where the local government is basically hiring private individuals to go participate in the local shootout with the gang or opposition political party, or where the local gang can ask you to go blow up the police. Local systems appear to have a large degree of autonomy as can be shown by the different government types of various systems even within a major faction. The major factions again are not like modern nation states on Earth. The Empire has major senators with effectively pocket empires of their own. The Federation can be likened to the Old Republic from Star Wars. Each system is its own mini government and micro nation, sending representatives to the big assembly on Earth but otherwise running their own affairs, and free to make its own laws or vote to leave the Federation.

Patreus collects on debt owed by local system governments. Legal debts accrued by purchasing of weapons on credit, which Patreus no doubt can provide legal documentation and proof of purchase. If you look on the old Galnet reports, there is even a system that managed to renegotiate its debt with Patreus and which did not get segments of its population having to sell themselves into Imperial slavery. That itself can be seen as an example of Patreus "expanding" into a system as he still would no doubt hold considerable leverage over the local government even with a negotiated deal. Probably aside from interest rates, there are other clauses or kickbacks beneficial to Patreus such as ownership stakes in key industries. Patreus's effect on for example Federation systems shows the imposition of new taxes. This again could be done through pressure on the local government and the local government then passing legal laws within its own jurisdiction to raise taxes, which may ultimately go towards repayment of the debt owed to Patreus. In such a case, Patreus may be literally collecting money, but on a legal debt which was genuinely racked up by the system government.

 

[Der Zeitgeist]

It's very much a problem of presentation, I think.

Seeing that the Powerplay influence "blobs" are so nicely visible in the galaxy map, I automatically assumed that they represent a certain power's territory. There's no easy way to see the actual major faction territories, only by the color of the stars.