Why are C4 Plasma Accelerators so incredibly weak?

[Crimson Kaim]

Yes I fly a Corvette and a Fer-de-Lance, both fitted with C4PAs. I noticed in CZs and other combat situations how much of a waste these things are. Their only purpose is module sniping, really. They deal excellent damage to modules but against hull? Ha-haha-hahahahaha. Ridiculous.

Example 1: Corvette vs DBE. Shields down using pulse lasers. Pretty fast, nothing wrong.

DBE 100% hull. x2 C4PAs hit. DBE 87% hull ... 13% damage from x2 C4PAs? I might have hit a module or something let's check. All modules at 100%. Weird, okey let's shoot again. x2 C4PAs hit. DBE 74% hull ... again 13% damage from x2 C4PAs? Okey maybe I hit a module THIS time. All modules still at 100%.

Okey screw this. 4 pips to SYS and RAMMING SPEED!



Depite C4PAs consuming an incredible amount of energy from the WEP capacicator, it also generates heat, is not hitscan and the weapon is uber expensive.
Short math: 100/13 = 7.7 -> *2 = 15.4 -> 16. So we need 16 C4 Plasma Balls to kill a single DBE.
Imagine how many you'd need for a Python or a Corvette? Let's find out!

*Jump to a local high CZ*

Oh, a Python. Strip its shields down and test the PAs! Shields down, okey, FIRE! 21% damage ... wow. I actually deal more damage to a Python than to a DBE. Let's fire again. 20% damage. Okey, this is ridiculous. Need another test subject.
A Federal Corvette. Let's do this. Shields down and FIRE! 27% damage.

...

I don't frickin' believe it. Before I continue to waste your time by sharing my test results, it seems like large weapons have a damage reduction against small ships. Why? This is nonsense, stupid or just once again an abitrary way of FD to cause things going upside-down.
Why on earth deal C4PAs so incredibly low damage to small ships. It doesn't only apply to DBEs, Viper MK IV/III, Cobras, Vultures and all the small ships almost take no damage from the C4PAs while larger ships like the Python or FDL (especially the FDL! I almost oneshot these with up to 80% hull dmg from x2 PAs) suffer normal damage.

See I expected a ship getting hit by a projectile that is actually larger than the whole ship being molten instantly. Guess I was terribly wrong.
Not sure if it was like that all the time but it feels like 1.5 has caused this. Everything else in 15. and 2.0 is pretty awesome: The SCB change, the filters in the navigation panael, Horizons itself but some tiny things just want to see the whole universe burn. For example unlogic damage calculations.


Now can someone answer me the question why C4 Plasma Accelerators are so incedibly weak (against small ships)?

 

[LittleJP]

I have noticed smaller ships seemed to be fairly tough. Maybe they've been fitted with armour and HRP? Those have gotten a buff.

Try testing smaller weapons.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

I have noticed smaller ships seemed to be fairly tough. Maybe they've been fitted with armour and HRP? Those have gotten a buff.

Try testing smaller weapons.

Since the Corvette has x2C1 hardpoints: Small pulse lasers (fixed) deal almost 0 damage to anything except a little bit to shields (as expected).

 

[ratchet5000]

It might have had military grade armor, or maybe only one of the plasma balls actually hit. I remember destroying a wanted viper from 100% hull to nothing with a lucky double hit of plasma from my corvette.

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Since the Corvette has x2C1 hardpoints: Small pulse lasers (fixed) deal almost 0 damage to anything except a little bit to shields (as expected).

I can fire 2x small beam lasers and 2x medium pulse lasers, all turreted indefinitely with my a8 distributor 4 pips to wep. They do nice amounts of damage when I'm turning the ship.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

It might have had military grade armor, or maybe only one of the plasma balls actually hit. I remember destroying a wanted viper from 100% hull to nothing with a lucky double hit of plasma from my corvette.

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I can fire 2x small beam lasers and 2x medium pulse lasers, all turreted indefinitely with my a8 distributor 4 pips to wep. They do nice amounts of damage when I'm turning the ship.

But I am using fixed only because of PvP. Turrets are nothing to consider in PvP except if your opponent using stealth since turrets ignore silent running.
But why would military alloys reduce the damage of the PAs so much? I mean compare your example of oneshotting a Viper wit hdual C4PAs just deaing 13% of damage. I'd say military grades are OP then. But since I highly doubt that, I'd just assume that either military grades reduce the damage of the C4PA twice (since it is kinetic AND thermic) or that small ships have a damage reducition against larger weapons.

 

[IceFire122]

Another idea:
PAC shots deal AoE (Area of Effect) damage). If the ball or AoE is large than the target, only part of the energy/damage is applied to the target, the rest goes into the void.
For larger ships, the full ball is absorbed by the target and hence deals more total damage.

And another theory:
I remember from previous dev posts, that damage to hull is lower, if a module is hit/damaged. On a small ship, a lot of modules can be hit with the same shot and hence absorb the energy, resulting in less hull damage. On a large ship, probably only one module (if any) is hit and the rest is hull damage.

Theories aside: I find the damage per energy of the huge PAC underwhelming. Yes, it deals 25% more damage than the large PAC, but it needs a LOT more energy to fire. The large PAC also has faster projectiles in respect to the huge one.

BTW: Powerplant sniping still works. Even, if the target survives the power plant reduction to 0%, further hits to the pp can still trigger the explosion of the target. I managed to kill an Anaconda with 60% remaining hull.

 

[GammaZ]

Did not notice this. At rare ocasions i decided to shoot something small with PA-s and both of them hit the target is usually almost dead after it.

Aslo you underestimate small hardpoints. 2 small lasers do only a tiny bit smaller damage than 1 large against shields. Just disable them (setup second firegroup without them) when you are shooting at large ship hull to conserve energy.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Another idea:
PAC shots deal AoE (Area of Effect) damage). If the ball or AoE is large than the target, only part of the energy/damage is applied to the target, the rest goes into the void.
For larger ships, the full ball is absorbed by the target and hence deals more total damage.

And another theory:
I remember from previous dev posts, that damage to hull is lower, if a module is hit/damaged. On a small ship, a lot of modules can be hit with the same shot and hence absorb the energy, resulting in less hull damage. On a large ship, probably only one module (if any) is hit and the rest is hull damage.

Theories aside: I find the damage per energy of the huge PAC underwhelming. Yes, it deals 25% more damage than the large PAC, but it needs a LOT more energy to fire. The large PAC also has faster projectiles in respect to the huge one.

BTW: Powerplant sniping still works. Even, if the target survives the power plant reduction to 0%, further hits to the pp can still trigger the explosion of the target. I managed to kill an Anaconda with 60% remaining hull.

Your second theroy doesn't work, I said I checked all modules and all moduleswere still at 100%.
But theory 1, I doubt that the mechanics of ED even know about AoE.

Apart form theories: Yes, improve C4 DPE please by adding some extra damage.

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Did not notice this. At rare ocasions i decided to shoot something small with PA-s and both of them hit the target is usually almost dead after it.

Aslo you underestimate small hardpoints. 2 small lasers do only a tiny bit smaller damage than 1 large against shields. Just disable them (setup second firegroup without them) when you are shooting at large ship hull to conserve energy.

Don't get me wrong, against shields C1 pulse lasers are fine, but so are C3 pulse lasers. I'd rather trade x2 C1 pulse lasers (20 MJ/s dmg) for one C3 pulse laser (15 MJ/s dmg) since they don't get a ... was it 50%-66% damage reduction against big ships (starting at a Python)?

 

[big_bad_lynx]

from Vette fitted with PAs i moved to my old Python and I started taking down NPCs faster. I found this weapon to be very frustrating and flying with those quite unpleasant. If at least they had more umpf it would excuse using it bearing on mind short range of those

 

[Crimson Kaim]

from Vette fitted with PAs i moved to my old Python and I started taking down NPCs faster. I found this weapon to be very frustrating and flying with those quite unpleasant. If at least they had more umpf it would excuse using it bearing on mind short range of those

Maybe they should make C4 Railguns out of these lol

 

[Katie Byrne]

I used one on the FDL and found it to be very useful indeed. And very damaging

 

[tawittle]

The point of PAs is module sniping.

Everyone says the FDL is bad at PVE (pre 1.5 I mean) but really you just had to gitgud.

Back in 1.3, I was running 2 gimballed beams, 1 medium PA, 1 MC, and a huge PA on my new shiny lance. Farmed up to rank 5 (with a diff. build) and my double plasma FDL was netting me 20 mil/hour. That's how I made most of my 1.6 billion in game, got rank 5 PP and then module sniped NPCs all day long with PAs.

 

[GeoFalke]

The point of PAs is module sniping.

Everyone says the FDL is bad at PVE (pre 1.5 I mean) but really you just had to gitgud.

Back in 1.3, I was running 2 gimballed beams, 1 medium PA, 1 MC, and a huge PA on my new shiny lance. Farmed up to rank 5 (with a diff. build) and my double plasma FDL was netting me 20 mil/hour. That's how I made most of my 1.6 billion in game, got rank 5 PP and then module sniped NPCs all day long with PAs.

C3 fixed cannon is also fantastic for module sniping, but it doesn't make that orgasmic *phump* anymore, so i might swap out for a PA on my orca till I can afford to fully upgrade my fdl

 

[SGT TickleFight]

1.5 has added huge build diversity to NPCs. The same Elite ViperIV can have insanely strong shields, insanely strong armor, or be armed to the teeth. I had a Deadly Courier last night that decided to invest in armor and a C4 PA did less than 15% hull damage.

C4 PAs are fun and pretty powerful, but they are not some superweapon - their energy drain is large and their damage is not guaranteed.

 

[Allerose]

Thank the small ship CMDRs who cried for hull buffs. So now every npc seems to have one scb and stacked full of HRP.

 

[DevilDogWill]

I had the same issue as the OP. Flying my FDL, I went after a wing with one Viper and an Asp in a HREZ. I hit the Viper 3 times with my C4 PA and it didn't even bring its shields down! I thought it had to be a bug, since after opening up with 4 multi cannons, it's shields finally dropped. Unfortunately, an NPC blind sided with a high speed ram, and off to the insurance screen I went. On larger targets, the C4 PA does great damage. Smaller ships range from one shot sheilds down and 50% hull damage, to no damage at all. Something just seems off about the PA.

 

[PierceSG]

Yeah, and those Military Grade Composite Bulkheads upgrade actually reduces thermic and kinetic damage by 50%. I guess that would defend against your PA pretty nicely?

 

[Barkley]

I seem to remember FD saying that they did not want big weapons to instantly fry small ships.
So a C4 weapon does normal (big) damage against an Anaconda, but it scales down vs smaller ships.
Shooting a Sidewinder with C2 PA will produce a similar amount of damage as a C4 PA. But shoot an Anaconda with a C2 PA it will do considerably less than a C4 PA.
The point was to avoid insta-kills on small ships and to promote using big weapons vs big ships.

Seems contrived to create 'balance'.

 

[thorn-]

I seem to remember FD saying that they did not want big weapons to instantly fry small ships.
So a C4 weapon does normal (big) damage against an Anaconda, but it scales down vs smaller ships.
Shooting a Sidewinder with C2 PA will produce a similar amount of damage as a C4 PA. But shoot an Anaconda with a C2 PA it will do considerably less than a C4 PA.
The point was to avoid insta-kills on small ships and to promote using big weapons vs big ships.

Seems contrived to create 'balance'.

It's completely contrived, and completely stupid.

"Nerf the C4 weapon against a small ship. To correct the new imbalance, make the large ship turn on a dime. There we go - balance restored."

 

[Bacalao]

It depends on the ship for me, I do lots of damage to vipers and eagles and stuff with a C4 PA, either 100% to dead in one shot, or almost, but then on some ships like the DBX/DBS I do far less. I think it's just their outfitting, they run so cold I think they must stack HRPs (though I know they have SCBs, NPC DBXs use them religiously) and the small ships likely have military armor, so it's cut in half right away. You have a decent proposal for a bug report though, it may be cutting the damage in half twice, though you should see that on the pythons and anacondas in CZs, they all run military armor I think.
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Barring a mil spec armor bug, it does seem more likely that the smaller ships would run it, it is very cheap for them after all, whereas for an Anaconda....ugh...so expensive.