Cargo isn't measured in tons anymore, it's units.
Unless you're willing to also say that your passenger who wants consumer goods to "make the trip more comfortable" actually wants an entire ton of toasters.
why are ltd diamonds so valuable when obviously not so rare?
- Thread starter Darth Ender
- Start date
Unless you're willing to also say that your passenger who wants consumer goods to "make the trip more comfortable" actually wants an entire ton of toasters.
I find the whole "precious" stones market to be more of a "tax for being a fool".
See the lower part of my previous post (it was a quick edit, probably not there when you read it)
Cargo isn't measured in tons anymore, it's units. Units that also happen to mass one ton...
Maybe produced goods are packed with lots of fluff, but why raw resources? That makes no sense, and 'consumer goods' is a lot more things than toasters, including some potentially heavy equipment.
Here's a sneaky rapid edit again: I think this discussion is pretty pointless, because this feature is a cornerstone of a functioning economy. If markets don't get saturated that's a problem and a dumbing down of game systems.
Which coincidentally each have a mass of one tonne... Plus consumer goods aren't just toasters, things like washing machines clock in at some pretty high masses and if they want to fully outfit a utility room and kitchen to keep themselves clean and fed with a reasonable degree of automation then a tonne of equipment (including packaging) probably isn't too far off. A "unit" of consumer goods is probably enough to provide an individual with all the electronics they might need for a good while.
The only explanation I have found for the pointlessness of regular goods and commodities is that Elite's universe is on Star-Trek levels of post scarcity where normal goods aren't even used for anything anymore and so humanity has started making everything out of precious gemstones and metals. Diamond fused under high pressures has replaced concrete as the standard building material, people are using cutlery made of high quality platinum alloys (probably involving using osmium to harden the metal), general furniture is made of painite etc. The average townsfolk is sitting atop his literal throne of Painite watching the sunlight scintillate through his fused diamond windows while sipping fine wine out of his void-opal studded platinum goblet. A poorer townsfolk who has fallen on hard times might have to look into lower quality products, perhaps settling for Mozanite or Alexandrite funishings and a mere gold goblet for his wine.
After all, the only reason why we could see high prices yet low rarity for these valuable commodities is if they have much higher demands than the "base" commodities. Therefore, the demand for LTDs must be orders of magnitude above minerals like Bauxite, so it can only be assumed that much of the previous uses for common minerals and metals has been overtaken by these more prestigious alternatives; after all, who would settle for a mere glass window when one made of processed diamond is available?
I believe it was a comparison of the relative freely accessible (i.e. mineable) amounts on which the rarity statements were based.
And I agree, player activity is effectively tiny. And I’d say particularly so when compared to major corporate activity.
I think that is a crucial factor which needs to be taken into account when looking at the side of things which players see.
All we’re seeing commercially is the activity which is going on outside of established major (or minor) contracts.
For a game that is so well done in terms of its size, looks, and flight model. Its a shame that something as basic to the games core, as a working economy model isnt in place after all the years the game has been out.
But for it to work now they would need to remove all the mega rich before the economy was put in place to work. A reset of all accounts.
Sadly the economy is treated much like anything else in Elite though. It makes no difference to the game if the player or massive groups of players do or does anything with it or not.
Power Play makes no difference to the game, Player Minor Factions make no difference, Combat makes no difference, Exploration makes no difference.
LTDs brought this all to the attention of more players than normal and that is a good thing.
Now people are seeing that even if every player in Elite mined LTDs, they could still never alter the market. as the prices are set and the amount that has been mined matters not.
If the availability of certain ships or weapons or modules, was to stop because the game did not have enough LTDs to create those parts. Now that would be something nice to see.
Or if famine or drought meant stations in a system would close until the demand was met.
There are many examples where you can see that the model is in place but it seems Fdev are just too scared to reset it all and turn it on ?
It’s a good question.
Was making the point in response to another post that all we’re seeing as players is the stuff that falls outside corporate / contract activity, and is going to be tiny in comparison.
I wonder how it all fits when looking at it through that lens?
All the genuine major need will largely already be being fulfilled by industrial scale activity and existing contracts and commercial relationships.
Perhaps the high sale value we see for some non-essentials is because on large commercial scales they are not worth it in comparison to materials for which there is a large, consistent and constant commercial demand, and thus the major industries don’t really touch them in a major way.
You dont simply "reset" player progress.
The economy in ED is an abstraction, and a poor one at that. It has a limited purpose. Its used to make a challenge out of purchasing ships and whatnot, and also as a factor in BGS. It's completely contrived and has little underpinning in reality. It exists to suit the whims of the game designers, and any resemblance to a real market economy is purely cosmetic or accidental.
It is true that IRL diamonds have a value greater than their worth or rarity. As gemstone go, diamonds are relatively common. Most of the disparity in value is due to the marketing efforts of De Beers corporation. They are the ones that sold us the idea that wedding rings had to have diamonds on them. Before DeBeers, the most common gemstone used in wedding rings was garnet.
Having said that, if you weighed all the diamonds on earth, including those that haven't yet been mined, you'd come out with about 275 tons of diamonds. So one person with one ship could out produce the earth in a few hours. By that standard, and given that diamonds can be artificially manufactured, I'd have to say that LTDs are probably by far the most common commodity in the galaxy, and their price is completely out of line with supply / demand fundamental.
It is true that IRL diamonds have a value greater than their worth or rarity. As gemstone go, diamonds are relatively common. Most of the disparity in value is due to the marketing efforts of De Beers corporation. They are the ones that sold us the idea that wedding rings had to have diamonds on them. Before DeBeers, the most common gemstone used in wedding rings was garnet.
Having said that, if you weighed all the diamonds on earth, including those that haven't yet been mined, you'd come out with about 275 tons of diamonds. So one person with one ship could out produce the earth in a few hours. By that standard, and given that diamonds can be artificially manufactured, I'd have to say that LTDs are probably by far the most common commodity in the galaxy, and their price is completely out of line with supply / demand fundamental.
If players constitute an insignificant portion of trade ...then purchase prices would never vary with player trade, demand would not be affected by players. Even if players are treated as a multiplier for background sim trading - that simply further argues against the value of highly traded items...
If goods aren't really scarce, then prices would be the same for all of them, since the only costs would be time spent to transport and acquire ..which would be effectively the same for everything in all systems except those in war or quarantine during those times.
These arguments to try and justify how things work in the game dont make any internal sense. They exist in a self contradictory state.
I dont think there are any logical models for how elite's economy works because absolutely no consideration was made when creating it. A gameplay goal was set and the system was created to do that ... Like lots of things in this game, absolutely no concern for any kind of internal consistency or lore was made.
The point of the thread though is LTD's are not rare (even ignoring the idea that a triple overlap is infinite in supply). They're found in ice rings and fairly commonly have hot spots in those ice rings and those ice rings are the most common ring type in the galaxy. Why is the elite universe paying a lot for a common commodity that's apparently available all over the place but not paying for items that would have a much higher actual demand in immensely more rare metallic rings if the only thing that is dictating price is how much time it takes to gather the materials since everything exists in infinite quantities and there are unlimited numbers of people out there willing to gather and transport it since players are not a significant part of the equation?
If ltd diamond pricing can be totally attributed to the .1% wanting pretty things and those guys dont want anything else, then the prices should be pinned to the bottom ...it would never rise from the bottom prices since the background sim traders who are making players insignificant would easily fill that supply void with all of the other stations who are buying and selling diamonds for much less.
If goods aren't really scarce, then prices would be the same for all of them, since the only costs would be time spent to transport and acquire ..which would be effectively the same for everything in all systems except those in war or quarantine during those times.
These arguments to try and justify how things work in the game dont make any internal sense. They exist in a self contradictory state.
I dont think there are any logical models for how elite's economy works because absolutely no consideration was made when creating it. A gameplay goal was set and the system was created to do that ... Like lots of things in this game, absolutely no concern for any kind of internal consistency or lore was made.
The point of the thread though is LTD's are not rare (even ignoring the idea that a triple overlap is infinite in supply). They're found in ice rings and fairly commonly have hot spots in those ice rings and those ice rings are the most common ring type in the galaxy. Why is the elite universe paying a lot for a common commodity that's apparently available all over the place but not paying for items that would have a much higher actual demand in immensely more rare metallic rings if the only thing that is dictating price is how much time it takes to gather the materials since everything exists in infinite quantities and there are unlimited numbers of people out there willing to gather and transport it since players are not a significant part of the equation?
If ltd diamond pricing can be totally attributed to the .1% wanting pretty things and those guys dont want anything else, then the prices should be pinned to the bottom ...it would never rise from the bottom prices since the background sim traders who are making players insignificant would easily fill that supply void with all of the other stations who are buying and selling diamonds for much less.
Human society in ED is massive. 7 Trillion people. Cmdrs make up an almost infinitesimal portion of humanity. The powers that be, corporate, governmental and societal have been around for a long time, more than a thousand years in some cases.
The influence of one independent pilot undertaking routine activity would be absolutely incredibly tiny.
That’s simply the setting we’re playing in.
If things are in accordance with that setting then that’s as should be expected.
MINERS, STOP HAVING FUN!!
OP, when last time u complained about poor instancking, better in-game tools for searching markets/stuff, srvs in multicrew, (lack of) ability to remotely refuel FC. Is income of other players so important to you?
Also prices for low temperature diamonds are quite low to me - 50k per tone. Now u can buy a car that weigh similar amount. Made of steel and plastic (okok lot of machining and r&d involved)
Among hundres (thousands?) of inhabitated systems only ~ 10 is buying diamonds at higher price. Try mining urself but without using 3rd party tools.
or u want fdev to adjust game economy to existence of external tools?
Or meaby u want fdev to block data stream to these external services? Good luck with that.
OP, when last time u complained about poor instancking, better in-game tools for searching markets/stuff, srvs in multicrew, (lack of) ability to remotely refuel FC. Is income of other players so important to you?
Also prices for low temperature diamonds are quite low to me - 50k per tone. Now u can buy a car that weigh similar amount. Made of steel and plastic (okok lot of machining and r&d involved)
Among hundres (thousands?) of inhabitated systems only ~ 10 is buying diamonds at higher price. Try mining urself but without using 3rd party tools.
or u want fdev to adjust game economy to existence of external tools?
Or meaby u want fdev to block data stream to these external services? Good luck with that.
Have u seen in system map what is estimated weight of planetary ring?
Idiot. Seriously. You're being a trolling idiot if you think that questioning a single commodity means destroying the entire mining role's attraction.
Almost every day. Except the multi-crew thing. I dont care about multicrew.
I'm not questioning the game economy because of how much other players are making. It directly impacts me that it's all garbage.
The game seems to be designed as if external tools didn't exist. Where these crazy imbalances would be random happy discoveries players would make periodically and rarely and so they wouldn't be a big deal and actually be seen as a crazy rare bonus. That's not the case in reality.
I'd would be happy if they stopped having data logs that are readable by third parties. Stopped their api that talks to third parties. I'd also rather improvements to the game be made within the game, rather than be directed to someone I dont know's hobby project to install and run things written by who knows and depend on third party systems to fill in gaps that shouldn't exist within the game.
But that's off topic.
Playing the game pretending like things dont exist doesn't mean they dont exist that way. We're not having a discussion about the fact that it's not possible to not sell commodities for prices that dont make sense. We're having one that it is, that it's become the defacto means of that system... and that such things shouldn't exist in a 5 year old game.
where are all these trillions of ppl? I agree btw that there ought to be trillions, given pop growth curves and tech to reach planets quickly in ED-verse. But where are all these ppl?
every system in the bubble I visit or look at in galmap only shows population in the low millions, like barely 50mil, 100mil, etc for an entire system.
granted, with so many systems in the bubble, I could see all these low pop systems adding up in aggregate to trillions, but why aren’t there lots of systems with pops in the billions?
yes, i have eyes. what's the point? these numbers dont mean anything in the game. at all. Diamond hot spots and thus, not so insignificant percentages of that pretend number exist in more ice rings than they dont exist in given how common ltd hotspots are and how numerous ice rings are. Given that we're to assume players constitute an insignificant number of traders and miners and etc. ... that means there is an effectively unlimited and unending and always available supply of diamonds. They're everywhere.
Metallic rings on the other hand are orders of magnitude more rare than ice rings. If all else is equal, metallic ring centric things should require more effort/time to acquire and more distant to transport even if we're talking about infinite supply .... so the prices dont make sense.
Even if that price disparity is only insane for a few systems, there is almost always a few systems that do so, but why? If we're insignificant, then any momentary spike in demand will be instantly filled by the background sims that do the lion share of trading. We players would always be far too slow to respond and the supply would be so large that even if demand spiked, the price would be insignificantly raised above bottom normal prices.
I honestly believe mining would still beat other professions if fdev rerolled the seed value for the hotspots on the weekly tick. The most super organised mining survey groups might find a triple LTD spot before the weekend and publish it for everyone, but they'd have to do that every week.
Finding single hotspots, the amount that fdev appear to be aiming to actually balance for, is relatively trivial. Three or four systems and you'll stumble across one and that'd be your mining site for the week. Next week, find another. Who knows, you might actually have to learn how the game works instead of just depending on someone who knows what they're doing to handhold you through it.
Finding single hotspots, the amount that fdev appear to be aiming to actually balance for, is relatively trivial. Three or four systems and you'll stumble across one and that'd be your mining site for the week. Next week, find another. Who knows, you might actually have to learn how the game works instead of just depending on someone who knows what they're doing to handhold you through it.
That’s not the case (at least not in the situation I’m describing). Essentially there would be two or more markets (for want of a better word).
A. The mass scale market. Industrial levels of activity, business-to-business, large contracts to provide supplies, etc.
B. The parts outside of that. Which is where small independent suppliers and traders (i.e. us) come in.
A. Would effect B. in large scales but over long time periods, in a way that would be a major determinant of general pricing but not of day to day fluctuations. (The exception would be when a major demand happens that falls outside of the major contracts or can’t be fulfilled sufficiently quickly within the terms of the existing contracts).
Day to day fluctuations within B would be driven by the activity of those operating within B, e.g. players.
B. Would largely have no noticeable effect on A. (A bit of an exception would be in instances of something new where being small and indendent allows for a much faster mobilisation and would help drive a bit of a response from the major corporates which might well be otherwise relatively slow to respond.)
you can't explain why market B prices get so disconnected from market A prices when market A companies aren't going to let billions goto waste.. and if billions are peanuts, then the supply of market A would automatically limit the value variations in market B.
If players are significant in market B, then you can't explain how tons of players saturating the market doesn't end that demand almost immediately. If these markets are so big players can't, then once again, market A would take interest.
I always figured players would play the role of couriers or contract workers for small businesses with immediate needs. In this situation though, a commodity market doesn't make sense for players to interact with. And indeed, i find it to be a relic from the 90's that can be left there. Instead, we would be dealing with indvidual buy/sell orders generated per player for certain things. this would eliminate the current mining and trading behaviors that are exploitative in nature. It would also avoid an economic mechanic that doesn't have any hope of making sense since there is no plan on making a player based economy based on fixed number scarce items.