Why do black holes in ED just look like lenses no event horizons, accretion discs or jets?

VR Jay Le Chardon

VR Jay Le Chardon
I'm planning some waypoints for my upcoming exploration expedition and having looked into black holes in ED's galaxy I was just wondering why they are rendered as simply the gravitational lensing?
It appears from all the youtube and screenshots I've seen of black holes in this game that they are all rendered as gravitational lenses such as:


BlackHole_Lensing.gif


Yet they would be much richer if they had the accretion discs or the axial xray jets often seen in images of black holes as in this picture:

320px-Black_Holes_-_Monsters_in_Space.jpg


Is this a technical thing in the game's engines design or are there actually some with the accretion disc in the game that I haven't seen footage of yet? As I understand astrophysics, there are three distinct types of black hole are recognized:

A Schwarzschild black hole is characterized solely by its mass, lacking both rotation and charge. It possesses both an event horizon and a point singularity.


A Kerr black hole is formed by rotating matter, possesses a ring singularity, and is of interest in connection with time travel since it permits closed time-like paths (through the ring).


A Reissner-Nordstrom black hole is formed from non-rotating but electrically-charged matter. When collapsing, such an object forms a Cauchy horizon but whether it also forms closed time-like paths is uncertain.

[credit to David Darling for the info on the classes of black holes and the links above point to his very informative site http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/B/blackhole.html]

From that info as I read it there are certain classes of black hole that have the discs and jets I long to see, and some that are just the gravitational lense, but from what I gather from game related website and media sources such as forum threads, discord and reddit posts and youtube streams, all of the black holes in the ED galaxy are the simple gravitational lense variety sans accretion discs et al. Can anyone confirm this? Or even better tell me where I can see some accretion disc type black holes so I can add them to my interstellar itinerary to visit a few nebulas and black holes and neutron stars and other exotic vistas?

TL:DR? Does anyone know if or where in this game I can see black holes like the second picture as opposed to the ones like the first picture?
 
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pippo

pippo
I posted this, some time ago, clearly shows that for now, lensing effect only...
i.e. no accretion discs
 
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Souvarine

Souvarine
I've seen quite a few black holes now, in many different places. Not one has had an accretion disc. I've never heard or read of anyone finding one that has.

However - that's not to say they aren't there. My understanding is that they have to be 'feeding' off a massive body close by to generate the accretion disc, and every black hole that I've seen has been very distant from any other stellar body - so I don't think you'd expect them to have them.

However I'm definitely no scientist!
 

Vandaahl

Vandaahl
I can imagine it would be a little bit complex to show accretion disks. I mean not every black whole accretes, so rendering one would depend on existence of a companion, the distance to it, the mass of the black whole, the substance and mass of the companion, and a bazillion other things I surely forget about.

I sure hope they'll be there one day. It would also mean a heck of a lot more important things would be ready by then as well :)
 

Mohrgan

Mohrgan
Accretion discs aside, most of the phenomenon associated with Black Holes do not appear in the Visual Spectrum, you can't 'see' Gamma or Beta radiation with the naked eye. The definition of a Black Hole is gravity so strong, not even light can escape. Most of the pictures we see of them are altered/enhanced to depict features seen in the various other wavelengths beyond our sight.

An accretion disc would imply material that has been attracted to the Black Hole, but hasn't succumbed yet. Not every Black Hole would be in this state. It is completely possible that the BH would/could have gathered up all of the local matter by the time you get to see it.

The Event Horizon, and what a BH looks like is a matter of debate. I don;t believe we have ever been able to image any Black Holes directly. They are known by the effects they have on the area around them, and we infer their presence.

In the end, I bet the visual issues are more a matter of convenience, than science. To save storage space, and graphics demand, the BH depicted in Elite sacrifice some of their potential visual impact for game efficiency.
 
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GraXXoR

GraXXoR
They are not modelled in game, instead they are merely tiny points with a drop out horizon..

They have no gravity or minimum distance. You can fly right past onewithimpunity using just your thrusters. Heck you can even FA past one...

They are non entities effectively. I presume, just like half of the other mechanics in this game, they are placeholders.

They should be EXTREME hazards to make explorers work for the 60kcr you get for a detailed scan by a first discoverer. But there should be a method to them so that a experienced explorer needs to be merely wary rather than spit-scared of them.
 
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LeptonFields

LeptonFields
While space is not totally empty, most of it does not have anything to form an accretion disk.

One example that should have a disk would be multi-stellar systems with a companion star in close proximity to the black hole, drawing matter away from the companion to form the accretion disk. The problem with this is that black holes are the stellar remnants of a supernova - the blast should have affected the nearby companion. The only scenario that is sensible is the black hole was a distant companion that over millions of years spiraled in close to the companion star.

On a different note, its too bad there are no radiation effects in the game. It would make jumping into a neutron star system more dangerous - if your ship dropped into the pulsar-beam, your heat should rise dramatically with random malfunctions and module damage.
 

pippo

pippo
Souvarine said:
My understanding is that they have to be 'feeding' off a massive body close by to generate the accretion disc, and every black hole that I've seen has been very distant from any other stellar body
Click to expand...
Vandaahl said:
rendering one would depend on existence of a companion, the distance to it
Click to expand...
LeptonFields said:
One example that should have a disk would be multi-stellar systems with a companion star in close proximity to the black hole, drawing matter away from the companion to form the accretion disk.
Click to expand...

Funny we're all saying the same thing, I think my link didn't get the (same) point across.

Here it is again:

screenshot_0183.jpg


Black hole is (very) near another stellar object (two actually)
No accretion disk

GraXXoR said:
they are placeholders.
Click to expand...

Exactly, just like what airless moons were before 2.0
 
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Andovar

Andovar
I'm still holding out hope that the surprise 2.4 update will be a major buff to exploration.
Unfortunately, I have a good feeling it's just those silly thargoids. :(
 

govny

govny
accretion disck are present only if the black hole is near a star that has expanded and doing so had exceeded its Roche limit.
it's a very rare fenomenon.
 
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Muetdhiver

Muetdhiver
govny said:
accretion disck are present only if the black hole is near a star that has expanded and doing so had exceeded its Roche limit.
it's a very rare fenomenon.
Click to expand...

You can find BH 5ls from an O star in several places in ED. There is no lensing of objects in the system, nor accretion disks.
My guess is that this will eventually be added to the game in a far away season. (i.e. once everything but exploration will be done/completed XD, so season 9 or 10)

Even then, the lensing effect is quite wrong. There is a nice paper somewhere about BH rendering that was the basis of Interstellar BH visuals. Very cool read.
https://arxiv.org/abs/1502.03808
 
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babelfisch

babelfisch
Muetdhiver said:
You can find BH 5ls from an O star in several places in ED. There is no lensing of objects in the system, nor accretion disks.
My guess is that this will eventually be added to the game in a far away season. (i.e. once everything but exploration will be done/completed XD, so season 9 or 10)

Even then, the lensing effect is quite wrong. There is a nice paper somewhere about BH rendering that was the basis of Interstellar BH visuals. Very cool read.
https://arxiv.org/abs/1502.03808
Click to expand...

In a season far, far away?
 

Darth Ender

D
the gamma rays given off by the accretion disc would kill you and fry your ship's electronics with massive amounts of radiation long before you had time to enjoy the view.

But if we're just looking for eye candy....they should go for it. exploration is unbelievably boring in elite. There's absolutely nothing to do out in the galaxy outside of the bubble and the couple places that are getting manual attention very near the bubble. Maybe even add hazards like black holes with accretion discs and such that aren't instantly lethal would be a good compromise.
 

Drelthar

Drelthar
Yeah, they really have missed a trick here in my opinion. If there is anything in a space game that your artists can go completely nutsoids on, it's black holes, the most bizzarre and outlandish phenomenon in space.

I was utterly confused when I first saw them (or rather... didn't see them...) in game, because I was really expecting some amazing eye candy.
 

Lightspeed

Lightspeed
Some changes just happen when FD is ready and willing, I guess. I mean, listen to the sounds of traffic control at starports .... we never anticipated the extent of that change in the last update, did we ?

So, it will come - in due course. Then there will be complaints about explorers disappearing into black holes ... !
 
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