Why do manufacturers hate Yaw?

Vasious

Vasious
da_wae said:
Because folks cried hard enough during the Beta (when yaw was comparable to pitch), that ships flew like "turrets in space" (which is how they're supposed to fly), and it made combat not feel like Star Wars airplanes in space.

Not everyone approves of the "airplanes in space" approach, trust me. But the "airplanes in space" folks were the loudest cry-babies and FDEV capitulated to them.
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Funny as in Alpha, the very first one people had access to, it was already that flight model as that was how it was designed to be

But yeah, created a fictional history to blame forum cry baby.

I like how FDev at the same time never listen to the community yet are also caving in to any whine all the time.
 
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da_wae

da_wae
Vasious said:
Funny as in Alpha, the very first one people had access to, it was already that flight model as that was how it was designed to be

But yeah, created a fictional history to blame forum cry baby.

I like how FDev at the same time never listen to the community yet are also caving in to any whine all the time.
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All I read is that the Devs applied this flight model due to community feedback during the development phase, and assumed it they at least experimented during the pre-release phase.
It seems that they did it before they even released the first Alpha tho (still following community feedback according to dev interviews).

So, you are correct - the flight model didn't change during pre-release phase as the community had already cried enough before they even reached it [haha] [haha]
 
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Arkadi

Arkadi
I am playing the game for several years now, and boys (gilrs), I have to think hard if yaw and roll are different in FA-off mode?

I think in FA-off yaw and roll are equal, kinda.

Not sure now though. Played to much monster hunter recently and didn't FA-off whilst mining :D
 
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babelfisch

babelfisch
da_wae said:
All I read is that the Devs applied this flight model due to community feedback during the development phase, and assumed it they at least experimented during the pre-release phase.
It seems that they did it before they even released the first Alpha tho (still following community feedback according to dev interviews).

So, you are correct - the flight model didn't change during pre-release phase as the community had already cried enough before they even reached it [haha] [haha]
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Which dev interview?

AFAIK Mike Evans always had the current flight model in mind and the discussion in the community only started after it was communicated.
 

Vandaahl

Vandaahl
da_wae said:
So, you are correct - the flight model didn't change during pre-release phase as the community had already cried enough before they even reached it [haha] [haha]
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Thats simply not true. The flight model did change even during premium beta and beta.
 

sgurr

S
da_wae said:
All I read is that the Devs applied this flight model due to community feedback during the development phase, and assumed it they at least experimented during the pre-release phase.
It seems that they did it before they even released the first Alpha tho (still following community feedback according to dev interviews).

So, you are correct - the flight model didn't change during pre-release phase as the community had already cried enough before they even reached it [haha] [haha]
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You are talking out of your behind.

FDev always talked about and planned for a planes in space feel and it was never a discussion they had with the community or in the ddf.
I can't stand it when people spout nonsense as fact then refuse to find the proof themselves despite numerous people saying they're wrong.
So, here's a post from Mike Evans about why they chose the flight model they did.

Indeed, a request is just that. We don't have to do anything if we don't want to but that doesn't mean we didn't read and consider the request. Suffice to say a low yaw rate is a fundamental part of our games aesthetics and a corner stone to our flight model that we at frontier like the way it is. We're not changing it, for to do so would be to compromise our own vision for what Elite: Dangerous is and what it's going to be. I don't give a damn what all the other space games have done in the past, nor do I care that our yaw rates are apparently even slower than a plane's is (though every time I've tried doing a pure yaw turn in IL-2 I've stalled my plane before I got anything that even resembled a steady and fast turn rate). Fast yaw and pitch in a space game is a video game trope of the highest order along with banner arrows sliding around the screen and compasses telling you where to fly all the time. I'm almost certain that other developers just implement those features because they've been so prevalent rather than actually reassessing whether the game needed them or could be even better without them! We found for example that the compass that pointed you towards your target at all times made combat too easy to end in stalemate of circling. As soon as we tried removing it all of a sudden it was more exciting to fight someone because they could give you the slip whilst you weren't glancing at your sensors and even if you did pay attention to the sensors the difference in the way the information is presented can still mean you don't quite stay on the target's tail perfectly, again providing more opportunities for them to turn the tide of the battle.

Suffice to say we wanted Elite to feel like star wars in terms of how the ships move by banking/rolling and pitching through manoeuvres opposed to the yaw and pitch based FPS style movement most other space games offered (where roll plays little or no part). That limitation to having to do your main directional change manoeuvring by pitching makes the flight path taken to be more cinematic and means a skilled player can predict the manoeuvres of an opponent in advanced by observing their current roll position relative to themselves only. So long as they match the roll quickly enough they can always follow through the inevitable pitch manoeuvre effectively and maintain the chase. If the target could yaw or pitch effectively then it's much harder to assess what they're going to do as they're current roll position doesn't really matter any more.

Finally realism has played no part whatsoever in any of our design discussions about the flight model. We don't care what would be realistic as we only care what the game play experience is when flying these ships and so far we feel we're hitting the right notes for the majority of our audience.
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Source :
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/29623-Increase-yaw?p=609596&viewfull=1#post609596
 

da_wae

da_wae
Steed said:
You are talking out of your behind.

FDev always talked about and planned for a planes in space feel and it was never a discussion they had with the community or in the ddf.
I can't stand it when people spout nonsense as fact then refuse to find the proof themselves despite numerous people saying they're wrong.
So, here's a post from Mike Evans about why they chose the flight model they did.



Source :
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/29623-Increase-yaw?p=609596&viewfull=1#post609596
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Interesting. This contradicts a lot of what I heard about it, but I suppose that's what you get for trusting hearsay.

If they had always planned to build one of the crappiest flight models in the history of modern space sims, FDEV is truly irredeemable.
 

andrewg_oz

andrewg_oz
I'd like to see the flight model limited to what a human pilot can withstand, taking into account things like the cockpit maybe being quite forward of the pitch axis (like the Python) or not (like the Anaconda or Fer de Lance). My understanding is that people can sustain much higher pitch Gs than yaw Gs, which may help explain the preference to pitch over yaw.
 

Burke

B
da_wae said:
If they had always planned to build one of the crappiest flight models in the history of modern space sims, FDEV is truly irredeemable.
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The explanation sounds a bit bovine to me. I think they just wanted to make us use the flight model from the original game "an homage" or something. Combine this with the game needed to work and be accessable to console users down to the age of 7 and you get some insight into design choices.
 

sgurr

S
da_wae said:
Interesting. This contradicts a lot of what I heard about it, but I suppose that's what you get for trusting hearsay.
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So now it's hearsay, you should use that Google link you posted earlier yourself.

da_wae said:
If they had always planned to build one of the crappiest flight models in the history of modern space sims, FDEV is truly irredeemable.
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In your opinion.
I like it, gives ED a unique feel and its better than turrets in space.
 

Mu77ley

Volunteer Moderator
Mu77ley
da_wae said:
No, it wasn't. There was a period during the Beta where yaw and pitch were comparable. But people complained about "turrets in space" and they artificially nerfed yaw to force people to roll and pitch in space [haha] [haha]
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No, that was never the case, even from the first alpha...
 

da_wae

da_wae
Burke said:
The explanation sounds a bit bovine to me. I think they just wanted to make us use the flight model from the original game "an homage" or something. Combine this with the game needed to work and be accessable to console users down to the age of 7 and you get some insight into design choices.
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True 6DoF confuses the heck out of most people, they cannot fathom how to fly things that require more than 2 functional neurons to make use of.

The indie game "Babylon 5: I've Found Her - Danger and Opportunity" had one of the best flight models in recent memory, shame the Russian devs didn't have full backing from the IP holders.
https://www.indiedb.com/games/babylon-5-ive-found-her-danger-opportunity
 

Vandaahl

Vandaahl
da_wae said:
I thought I'd been proven wrong about this a few times [haha]

So, I assume Yaw rates didn't change much, if at all during said period?
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Dunno, your 'knowledge' is all over the place. I quoted you saying the flight model didn't change, now it's about yaw again...

Speed bleed was introduced during beta, and I recall a yaw tweak during premium beta, or even a little later when the Viper was introduced.
 
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sgurr

S
Burke said:
The explanation sounds a bit bovine to me. I think they just wanted to make us use the flight model from the original game "an homage" or something. Combine this with the game needed to work and be accessable to console users down to the age of 7 and you get some insight into design choices.
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That explanation comes from one of the leads on the flight model design. If you won't take that at face value what will you take?

And the console 'dumbing down' argument really is petty. Controllers are as equally capable of roll into yaw use as joystick users are.
 
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