Why do people still care at all about clogging?

DemiserofD

D
Once Upon a time, combat logging might have been a meaningful crime. Back then, a rebuy could take a good amount of time to earn, or might even cost you your ship entirely. Not to mention, before engineering, it took longer to get places, so dying could cost you more in terms of time.

But none of that is true anymore. You can earn the credits for a rebuy in like 45 seconds, and engineered frameshift drives allow you to get anywhere in the bubble in a matter of minutes. There is literally no meaningful cost to death.

So why do people care about clogging? The cost they experience is basically the same. Which is to say, nothing. All that you really miss out on is a very brief graphical effect.

So why do people care? Isn't it about time that these archaic restrictions get removed entirely?
 

HappyMoonMonkey

HappyMoonMonkey
DemiserofD said:
So why do people care? Isn't it about time that these archaic restrictions get removed entirely?
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How would you remove the restrictions? When people Alt+F4 out of the game, your ship would remain helpless in the instance for a certain time? Increase the danger timer? Remove the danger timer entirely and insist that ships are moved to a safe location before logging off?

I'd personally support at least leaving a helpless ship in instance for the duration of the danger timer when Alt+F4 is used. But there may be technical limitations to that.
 

DemiserofD

D
HappyMoonMonkey said:
How would you remove the restrictions? When people Alt+F4 out of the game, your ship would remain helpless in the instance for a certain time? Increase the danger timer? Remove the danger timer entirely and insist that ships are moved to a safe location before logging off?

I'd personally support at least leaving a helpless ship in instance for the duration of the danger timer when Alt+F4 is used. But there may be technical limitations to that.
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The other way, just remove any punishment for Alt f4ing. It makes literally no difference anyway. Save a lot of support team Time by removing the rule about it, and let player groups deal with it in their own way.
 

Riverside

Riverside
Not really sure most people do care about Clogging, but all other considerations aside it's frustrating to see, just as a poor quality network connection is, or someone always typing in all caps. Whether it's irritating enough to say something about is down to the individual. Lots of activities are frustrating but still 'legal' of course.

Clogging is against the rules though, it is bypassing the game's 'ship in danger' delayed exit mechanism, and can impair the intended gameplay experience for other users who may (for example) be about to kill the CLogger. It makes sense that it's against the rules because it's unsporting behaviour, and while different people may think the line should be drawn in a different place (some consider menu logging while in danger unsporting, others think CLogging shouldn't be a thing at all), that's where FDev choose to draw the line.

CLogging cannot be disabled, on PC all programmes running in a windows environment must be compliant with the 'end task' function which has higher priority than any code in the programme itself. On a console the 'home' option has a similar function. So something that cannot be prevented can only be deterred with a punishment (if reported or picked up through tracking).
 

DemiserofD

D
Riverside said:
Not really sure most people do care about Clogging, but all other considerations aside it's frustrating to see, just as a poor quality network connection is, or someone always typing in all caps. Whether it's irritating enough to say something about is down to the individual. Lots of activities are frustrating but still 'legal' of course.

Clogging is against the rules though, it is bypassing the game's 'ship in danger' delayed exit mechanism, and can impair the intended gameplay experience for other users who may (for example) be about to kill the CLogger. It makes sense that it's against the rules because it's unsporting behaviour, and while different people may think the line should be drawn in a different place (some consider menu logging while in danger unsporting, others think CLogging shouldn't be a thing at all), that's where FDev choose to draw the line.

CLogging cannot be disabled, on PC all programmes running in a windows environment must be compliant with the 'end task' function which has higher priority than any code in the programme itself. On a console the 'home' option has a similar function. So something that cannot be prevented can only be deterred with a punishment (if reported or picked up through tracking).
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Sure, it's obviously unsportsmanlike conduct, but there is plenty of other activities that you can do that are equally unsportsmanlike that aren't specifically singled out. For example, there's nothing to stop you from repeatedly interdicting the same player to keep them from being able to do anything else. Or sitting afk at the only cg landing pad. Or parking a bunch of Fleet carriers to keep people from getting out of rackham's peak.

Neither of those first two things need to be explicitly codified, because if they go too far, they already fall under the banner of griefing. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if it takes place inside the game or outside of it; if you are griefing another player, it doesn't matter.

Seems to me the easiest solution would be for clogging to go in the same area.
 

GJ51

GJ51
DemiserofD said:
Fair enough, but so is for example going AFK at an outpost and blocking the pad, and you don't see people getting banned for that.
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I doubt anyone is getting banned for either

In any event bad etiquette is unseemly however it manifests

Does anyone remember what being a "good sport" means

Ancient vernacular from the 1950's
 

Riverside

Riverside
DemiserofD said:
Sure, it's obviously unsportsmanlike conduct, but there is plenty of other activities that you can do that are equally unsportsmanlike that aren't specifically singled out. For example, there's nothing to stop you from repeatedly interdicting the same player to keep them from being able to do anything else. Or sitting afk at the only cg landing pad. Or parking a bunch of Fleet carriers to keep people from getting out of rackham's peak.

Neither of those first two things need to be explicitly codified, because if they go too far, they already fall under the banner of griefing. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if it takes place inside the game or outside of it; if you are griefing another player, it doesn't matter.

Seems to me the easiest solution would be for clogging to go in the same area.
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Repeatedly attempting to frustrate the same player is (or can be considered to be) griefing. As with CLogging it depends on how it is perceived by the 'victim' (the ones left in the game in the case of CLogging), and intent which can be hard to establish.

Ultimately you can hold any opinion you like on the game rules but if you do it & get caught & punished it's on you to justify your mitigating circumstances or take the punishment. AFAIK the punishment is a temp ban (few days), I'm not aware of any CLogger that had an account revoked but of course I only know info on events the participants chose to share.
 

DemiserofD

D
Riverside said:
Repeatedly attempting to frustrate the same player is (or can be considered to be) griefing. As with CLogging it depends on how it is perceived by the 'victim' (the ones left in the game in the case of CLogging), and intent which can be hard to establish.

Ultimately you can hold any opinion you like on the game rules but if you do it & get caught & punished it's on you to justify your mitigating circumstances or take the punishment. AFAIK the punishment is a temp ban (few days), I'm not aware of any CLogger that had an account revoked but of course I only know info on events the participants chose to share.
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Right, I agree completely.

It's just bizarre how players have elevated clogging into some special heinous crime, when practically, it's barely an inconvenience.
 

GJ51

GJ51
DemiserofD said:
Exactly my point. If they're functionally equivalent, shouldn't the punishments for doing them be equivalent as well?

Consistency in rules makes for a better player base.
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Yes - that would be a good idea.

I've been here since 2014 and think there has only been maybe half a dozen or so instances of banning actually haven taken place.

FD seems to act as though it actually believes that the threat of being banned is all that is needed to prevent unwanted behaviors.

A bit like modern parenting 😂
 

Riverside

Riverside
DemiserofD said:
It's just bizarre how players have elevated clogging into some special heinous crime, when practically, it's barely an inconvenience.
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What's your source of this?

It's cheating, according to FDev. Pad hogging isn't cheating according to FDev, neither is BGSing in solo, shooting at other players or any number of activities that somebody might find annoying.

In this specific case (CLogging) I think FDev draw the line in a reasonable place. Just logging off to escape the consequences of in-game actions is discouraged but cannot be prevented, and is allowed with a short delay (usually 15 secs).
 

DemiserofD

D
Riverside said:
What's your source of this?

It's cheating, according to FDev. Pad hogging isn't cheating according to FDev, neither is BGSing in solo, shooting at other players or any number of activities that somebody might find annoying.

In this specific case (CLogging) I think FDev draw the line in a reasonable place. Just logging off to escape the consequences of in-game actions is discouraged but cannot be prevented, and is allowed with a short delay (usually 15 secs).
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I mean, most player groups have a specific rule about it, so that's a pretty good example right there.

And it's bizarre that they have added a specific rule regarding this one particular thing. Why is this activity, that they haven't fixed, considered a cheat, while the other activities that they also haven't fixed are not? They both have approximately the same amount of effect on a player; if anything, finding someone AFK on a pad is far more irritating than having someone log out just before they die.

So why the disparity in treatment? Why is one considered cheating, and the other is not?
 

Riverside

Riverside
DemiserofD said:
I mean, most player groups have a specific rule about it, so that's a pretty good example right there.

And it's bizarre that they have added a specific rule regarding this one particular thing. Why is this activity, that they haven't fixed, considered a cheat, while the other activities that they also haven't fixed are not? They both have approximately the same amount of effect on a player; if anything, finding someone AFK on a pad is far more irritating than having someone log out just before they die.

So why the disparity in treatment? Why is one considered cheating, and the other is not?
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If you want to understand the difference, try looking at it like this: Pad hogging is an in-game, in-universe activity. Shooting at other players is also an in-game, in universe activity. Logging off from the game is not an in-game, in-universe activity, it is not an action your Cmdr can take, it is an action the player takes IRL.

As far as which is more irritating goes, you must surely realise that's subjective & that people will have their own opinions on that. I'm sure there are plenty who would be happy for FDev to implement some rule that makes pad hogging less irritating for other players, but it is easily solved by logging into solo, docking & logging back into open again (an out of universe solution) or just accepting that the station is busy & waiting or going elsewhere (as you would have to do IRL if a carpark were full for example).
 
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