Why does it matter if some players make the game easier for themselves?

[Zplintz]

I have seen many posts in threads across the forum that give reasons for why a particular game mechanic should or should not be included because players feel they are being hard done by if someone chooses game options that make the game easier for themselves compared to other players options.

For example Private groups avoiding other players would apparently allow them to progress more quickly than players who are at risk of PvP. Or more recently PvE players in general may have an easier time than PvP players.

Surely you just play your own game with or without your own friends and/or un-friendlies and enjoy the experience choosing the options that suit you. For example there will always be someone who plays the game 25hours a day - are you going to feel hard done by if they reach Elite or obtain a better ship sooner because it is "unfair".

Why does it matter if someone else progresses faster because they have chosen an easier/safer path?

 

[Majere]

Yep.

From what I remember, it's not a racing game.

Unless you are interesting in waving your bits around going 'Nyah Nyah Nyah - I made it to Elite before you Nyah Nyah Nyah' I don't see the problem.

Space is big. Really big... etc etc

 

[Philip Coutts]

Quite agree, I'm not sure if this is a modern thing or not but we as a species do like to look at what other people are up to and have a right good moan about it. I will be playing ED for my own personnel enjoyment and I really don't care if I'm the last person in the whole game to reach the Elite ranking. I just want to enjoy the journey and make my own decisions. I don't have a problem with what anyone else wants to do or how they want to do it. The beauty of ED is that it allows a huge degree of freedom and flexibility to go your own way and do your own thing. And that is exactly what I intend to do.

 

[Zplintz]

Added a basic poll to the thread.

 

[Mike Evans]

Ah I believe you've made a terrible mistake which makes me doubt the credibility of your entire post. You see there are 24 hours in a day not 25.

In all seriousness though the path of least resistance is extremely bad from a game play experience point of view. It's all very well saying you should be able to play how you want and have option to make your experience easier but by just having such a choice people will be compelled to use it and ruin the experience they could have had if there was no such choice available to them.

I always remember seeing people playing Oblivion and spending every second going from A to B jumping up and down to level up a stat or continuously summoning a skeleton ally because it would improve their ability to do so. This was the path of least resistance and made the whole experience lesser for it despite the good intentions of the mechanic (improve your abilities by using them). It didn't matter how silly it looked to do and how annoying it was to actually keep repeatedly doing something out of context you would do it because it would improve your character.

Secondly this is a multiplayer game and fairness is extremely important and it does become an issue if someone else you interact with can have an unfair advantage over you because they selected some option you didn't. People will be compelled to also select that option despite their wishes because it'll be the only way to compete on a level playing field. Being able to advance further in the game because you can play it for longer in the day is not an unfair advantage in this case and isn't an issue.

 

[jabokai]

In all seriousness though the path of least resistance is extremely bad from a game play experience point of view. It's all very well saying you should be able to play how you want and have option to make your experience easier but by just having such a choice people will be compelled to use it and ruin the experience they could have had if there was no such choice available to them.

If you really believe that then you should take away the ability to move to a private group and back to the main group - the choice/easier path you comment about is already there. You can even do it in Ironman mode at the moment - it makes no sense.

 

[Mike Evans]

If you really believe that then you should take away the ability to move to a private group and back to the main group - the choice/easier path you comment about is already there. You can even do it in Ironman mode at the moment - it makes no sense.

If it were entirely up to me I would only have an iron man all players group However we said there would be ways for players to play with their friends only on the KS and I don't see how we could get away with taking that particular feature away.

 

[jabokai]

If it were entirely up to me I would only have an iron man all players group However we said there would be ways for players to play with their friends only on the KS and I don't see how we could get away with taking that particular feature away.

You'd sell less games that way! I'll start in Ironman but am thankful there's a way out if it's not for me. I'd never have pledged, nor bought on release, this title if it was the ONLY option.

You can take private groups away in Ironman! The KS pledge would still exist in the "Normal" group.

And you can give PvE too - sell more games, stick to your Ironman world, all oblivious-like of the millions (too hopeful?) playing in another galaxy! :smilie:

 

[loststargirl]

@Mike Evans. It's nice to see a designer read these threads.

You mention Oblivion which is all about stats and levels. It confuses me a bit.

I kinda assumed 'elite' is just a rank (or title). That ED will be about picking a ship and customizing it, in other words about choices. In my view you might be more wary about an 'Above average' stingy Viper then an 'Elite' blunt huge transporter ship.

I picture it correct? Experience points won't increase stats or do they?

 

[Mike Evans]

@Mike Evans. It's nice to see a designer read these threads.

You mention Oblivion which is all about stats and levels. It confuses me a bit.

I kinda assumed 'elite' is just a rank (or title). That ED will be about picking a ship and customizing it, in other words about choices. In my view you might be more wary about an 'Above average' stingy Viper then an 'Elite' blunt huge transporter ship.

I picture it correct? Experience points won't increase stats or do they?

I wasn't specifically talking about getting to Elite rank as that was only part of the original post. Although now a poll has been added just to talk about that which doesn't really concern me because it doesn't matter how fast you get to Elite or not. It is just a title really except for access to a special area and possibly other bonuses. I'm concerned with having options for players to gain an advantage against others immediately and the weakening of the overall game experience such options provide.

 

[Alien]

Am I not already making it easier for myself by choosing to start in the long range explorer Cobra Mk III with 4,000cr as opposed to starting in the Sidewinder with 100cr and a criminal record?

 

[Frank]

Alien, you made me decide how to vote. I guess I can't be too bothered about how fast I burn through the game if it's my intention to start from Lave with 100 credits.

That doesn't mean I won't be playing the game 25 hours a day, depending on how many hours each of the days on my planet has

 

[breakpointUK]

I am in no rush, for me it's about the journey rather than destination

But I do appreciated that 'some modern' gamers, which I do believe are required to make the game more diverse and financially successful (especially as they will be ones that will help fund servers, to a point are more likely to buy vanity items and cash for credits(maybe?))..

... for that reason, I believe that there will players that will want to get the best gear, be the first to do something, achieve Elite rank first...

... an example of which is 'realm firsts' in WoW, the idea being that the first to reach the new level cap in a chosen race, class, profession etc are rewarded with a rare item or title etc etc...

... as much as us veterans will enjoy the game in perhaps the old slower pace style there will be players that will want to race rather than stroll!

If you ran this Poll a year after release, I am pretty sure the results would be more equal... As the current population are likely to be existing Elite players rather than 'new' recruits looking to diverse their gaming experiences!

 

[DigitalDuck]

It has to be relatively fair; I can understand people getting annoyed if people can just remove themselves to make one part easier and then pop back in again, some sense of balance is needed across each universe.

But when you have separate groups it really doesn't matter if it's balanced across all of them. I'm sure those playing Ironman won't care that other players are reaching Elite before they are, because as far as they're concerned the only real achievement is reaching Elite in Ironman. And so on with every grouping possible.

 

[Calebe]

To play devils advocate for a moment:

Secondly this is a multiplayer game and fairness is extremely important and it does become an issue if someone else you interact with can have an unfair advantage over you because they selected some option you didn't.

Fairness is you play the game without cheating. If they select an option you didn't is not unfair as you chose not to select that option. Now if it is because they pledged more and start with a different ship etc.... that isn't unfair again because you had that option and chose not to select it (or couldn't afford to, but the developers made it an option and unless they think it is cheating. Then it is fair).

People will be compelled to also select that option despite their wishes because it'll be the only way to compete on a level playing field. Being able to advance further in the game because you can play it for longer in the day is not an unfair advantage in this case and isn't an issue.

Again I disagree they will not feel compelled if it is an issue and they can't afford it (a pledge ship for example with more starting credits). As for the being able to advance further in the game because you can play it longer is not an unfair advantage to that I will disagree partly. If I can play only a few hours a week due to work and family responsibilities and you can play for 40 or more hours a week, that is a huge advantage. No way will I be able to keep up. I may start with a better ship but in a week time you have played more hours then I may in 3 or 4 months worth. You don't call that an advantage? Is it unfair though. No (so we agree), if someone is single, has the time, or their significant other doesn't mind them being away from them so long. Fine it is their choice, but it does give them an advantage in game, but it is not unfair, it is they have more time to play the game. In other words, life is unfair at times and people need to expect that and stop trying to make everything equal. Which takes us back to the option you didn't select that gave me an advantage at the start. You play more and will soon pass that advantage easily. There is no one path I WIN button. It gives a temporary advantage, but playing more hours gives a permanent advantage in game play, and OPPORTUNITIES to be way better then the easier path, it doesn't mean you will be successful at it, but you have that chance.

Calebe

 

[Noogillim]

It doesn't bother me one way or another tbh.

I want to experience what is out there, choosing a path of explorer may well be a really stupid dangerous one who knows I guess I'll find out

I like simulation - sad puppy that I am, who says the computer controlled element isn't going to be a challenge? let alone the other hoomans

I hope that there will be enough in game to drag me back into the game and find new stuff etc.

The Piratical lot will be out there having their fun the BH's having theirs, not so sure people in multiplayer will really get to play it safe so to speak.

It's a scary place is space! let's hope we don't have to endure any Vogon Poetry.....

 

[Minti2]

What?....i am the Lone Gunman after all......

 

[DarkWalker]

I voted "no", but it's not that I don't want to eventually hit Elite; it's just that I don't care, in the least, if other players are getting there faster or slower. I wouldn't mind if, by going at my own pace, I ended being the last player in the game to reach Elite.

I always remember seeing people playing Oblivion and spending every second going from A to B jumping up and down to level up a stat or continuously summoning a skeleton ally because it would improve their ability to do so. This was the path of least resistance and made the whole experience lesser for it despite the good intentions of the mechanic (improve your abilities by using them). It didn't matter how silly it looked to do and how annoying it was to actually keep repeatedly doing something out of context you would do it because it would improve your character.

IMHO, this is caused mostly by the fact Oblivion's leveling system is a brain-dead one where the ORDER in which you level your abilities determine how powerful you will be in the end. That, coupled with the way every single zone in the game "levels up" with the character, means that a player that just go using his skills as he wants will end up with a gimped character and a far higher challenge level than someone that plans his character's development.

In fact, the first thing I do whenever I replay an Elder Scrolls game is to install some addon to make the order in which the abilities are leveled unimportant, freeing me from having to plan my character's progression or grind levels in abilities. It's also why I consider any Elder Scrolls game to be completely unplayable in consoles, where I can't use mods.

 

[Zplintz]

.. Double post ooops

 

[Zplintz]

Ah I believe you've made a terrible mistake which makes me doubt the credibility of your entire post. You see there are 24 hours in a day not 25.

In all seriousness though the path of least resistance is extremely bad from a game play experience point of view. It's all very well saying you should be able to play how you want and have option to make your experience easier but by just having such a choice people will be compelled to use it and ruin the experience they could have had if there was no such choice available to them.

I always remember seeing people playing Oblivion and spending every second going from A to B jumping up and down to level up a stat or continuously summoning a skeleton ally because it would improve their ability to do so. This was the path of least resistance and made the whole experience lesser for it despite the good intentions of the mechanic (improve your abilities by using them). It didn't matter how silly it looked to do and how annoying it was to actually keep repeatedly doing something out of context you would do it because it would improve your character.

Secondly this is a multiplayer game and fairness is extremely important and it does become an issue if someone else you interact with can have an unfair advantage over you because they selected some option you didn't. People will be compelled to also select that option despite their wishes because it'll be the only way to compete on a level playing field. Being able to advance further in the game because you can play it for longer in the day is not an unfair advantage in this case and isn't an issue.

*Only 24 hours in a day?? - Damn this Sumsang Ondraid phone I bought cheap at Borough Market!!

@Mike Evans - I fully agree with what you are saying about the path of least resistance (or perhaps the path of quickest xp?). Personally I went through too many RPG MMOs looking for the quickest ways to level - including running up stairs and jumping down again repeatedly for days to get my Safe Fall skill high enough to use in EQ1 - before finally realising it was far more fun to just play and let the levelling come by itself). I also understand why some people will always want to be the first to hit the top ranks, kill the boss mob, beat the raid etc, and I understand people need to feel there is fairness in the ranking system, I just wondered if it sometimes gets in the way of perfectly acceptable game mechanics and thought I would try and find out how important it was to people.

So far I'm quite pleased with the poll results.

That doesn't mean I won't be playing the game 25 hours a day, depending on how many hours each of the days on my planet has

[Edit - Bah! The perfect response. Wish I had thought of that ]