Why does my SRV have such terrible traction?

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

You don't need to "prove" something when discussing aspects of game design that are self-evident.

What you're suggesting is like having someone criticise aspects of a movie and asking them for "proof" that the movie designers "intentionally" made those decisions. Of course they did, they made the movie. Asking for "proof" that the decisions were intentional is so ridiculous it's almost not worth me even replying to such a nonsensical request for "proof".

You're also missing the entire point of the criticism. When a game designer makes a bad decision that results in frustrating gameplay and that decision is criticized that's not the same as saying they intentionally wanted to frustrate players. It's more likely a result of it being easier for a game designer to take shortcuts and use artificially frustrating gameplay to substitute for a well-designed gameplay that provides a meaningful challenge.

There are many other examples of FD making similar design decisions in Elite, but if you need to ask for "proof" that they intentionally made those decisions you quite simply wouldn't understand the nature of the discussion.

You said that the SRV handling is due to a motivation to make it more challenging. Sorry but motivations are not self evident. Aslo, you said that materials gathering, synthisis, and engineering are locked behind the steep learning curve of the SRV. What of these specifically cannot be accomplished without the SRV?

"Steep learning curve"... lol

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

BTW, my six year old drives my SRV around and gathers mats for me until my materials storage is full.

But yeah, for you, I can see how the steep learning curve of driving the SRV can be frustrating for yourself and maybe a few others.

Guess I'll have to let FDEV know that they need to make it harder.

 

[NecasekO]

I just did some tests (on a 0.3g planet) and here's what I found:

1. The SRV is steering both front and rear wheels, and allows fairly steep steering angle even at moderate to high speeds.
2. Input reaction is quick and response curve is very non-linear - when slowly changing input axis, you can see the wheels steer very sharply towards the end.

Point 1 makes the SRV inherently unstable at higher speeds - any car that steers its rear wheels will do that when the rear wheels steer beyond certain angle. If you deliberately limit steering input to low values the SRV is perfectly stable even at top speed.

Point 2 makes it very difficult to predict when the SRV will start to spin and also makes it difficult to recover.

Unfortunately, it seems that ED doesn't have control options that are traditional in more serious driving games (steering response, steering lock) so it's not possible to adjust controls to improve handling. I suspect this could be fixed simply by disabling rear wheel steering when driving above certain speed, which is what real world cars with all wheel steering do.

 

[Devari]

You said that the SRV handling is due to a motivation to make it more challenging. Sorry but motivations are not self evident.

You're still stuck on trying to ask for "proof" about the intentions of the devs when the flaws in the SRV gameplay are obvious to anyone who understands AWD handling characteristics. They designed the SRV with such poor handling characteristics that it clearly makes no logical sense for an AWD vehicle. Instead of designing a proper AWD setup they designed it instead with the performance characteristics of a RWD vehicle which is literally the worst decision they could have gone with. It was most likely easier for them to do this than it would have been for them to create a well-designed AWD setup because then they would have needed to actually design gameplay that was properly challenging for a well-designed AWD vehicle.

Or are you suggesting that you actually have an alternative explanation that explains why the devs designed the SRV with performance characteristics that are so markedly sub-optimal for an AWD vehicle, with severe oversteer that occurs even with mild traction loss? Or why it has better traction driving reverse than it does forwards? Are you suggesting that these characteristics are part of a logical design for an AWD vehicle?

I don't really expect you to answer this question properly because you clearly didn't understand the technical issues I was originally describing in my post. You also decided to assume that anyone who drives an AWD car would drive a Subaru even though they are well-known to use a symmetric AWD setup and are literally the opposite of what I was describing in my original post in this thread.

Aslo, you said that materials gathering, synthisis, and engineering are locked behind the steep learning curve of the SRV. What of these specifically cannot be accomplished without the SRV?

I already mentioned that aspects of Engineering and mat synthesis require mats that can only be collected with the SRV. I mentioned this in my post already. Did you actually read it? You do have a history of not actually reading my posts carefully before you reply to them.

"Steep learning curve"... lol

Yes, it is a steep learning curve for many players which you would easily be able to tell from the many complains about the SRV that have appeared on these forums in various threads. As I mentioned earlier I drive a RWD-biased AWD car so I learned how to drive the SRV very quickly because I already know quite a bit about those types of handling characteristics. I could still immediately tell as soon as I started using the SRV that the excessive oversteeer and traction issues were dramatically exaggerated from what they needed to be if the SRV were designed with proper AWD handling characteristics.

BTW, my six year old drives my SRV around and gathers mats for me until my materials storage is full.

But yeah, for you, I can see how the steep learning curve of driving the SRV can be frustrating for yourself and maybe a few others.

Guess I'll have to let FDEV know that they need to make it harder.

So instead of an actual discussion about proper handling characteristics of an AWD vehicle, your argument is "my six year old drives my SRV" so the game mechanics are fine?

Seriously? That's your argument?

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

I just did some tests (on a 0.3g planet) and here's what I found:

1. The SRV is steering both front and rear wheels, and allows fairly steep steering angle even at moderate to high speeds.
2. Input reaction is quick and response curve is very non-linear - when slowly changing input axis, you can see the wheels steer very sharply towards the end.

Point 1 makes the SRV inherently unstable at higher speeds - any car that steers its rear wheels will do that when the rear wheels steer beyond certain angle. If you deliberately limit steering input to low values the SRV is perfectly stable even at top speed.

Point 2 makes it very difficult to predict when the SRV will start to spin and also makes it difficult to recover.

Unfortunately, it seems that ED doesn't have control options that are traditional in more serious driving games (steering response, steering lock) so it's not possible to adjust controls to improve handling. I suspect this could be fixed simply by disabling rear wheel steering when driving above certain speed, which is what real world cars with all wheel steering do.

I've never used it, but what does the driving assist do, exactly? I had never noticed it until recently and haven't had a need to turn it on, but is driving assist off similar to FA Off?

 

[NecasekO]

I've never used it, but what does the driving assist do, exactly? I had never noticed it until recently and haven't had a need to turn it on, but is driving assist off similar to FA Off?

I have no idea. I tried turning it on for a while but couldn't see any difference in the SRV steering behavior (while in a ship it is very obvious). It seems that enabling drive assist while moving at moderate speed makes the SRV speed up but I'm not sure why. Maybe it is dependent on control setup? (I'm using a HOTAS)

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

You're still stuck on trying to ask for "proof" about the intentions of the devs when the flaws in the SRV gameplay are obvious to anyone who understand AWD characteristics. They designed the SRV with such poor handling characteristics that it clearly makes no logical sense for an AWD vehicle. Instead of designing a proper AWD setup they designed it instead with the performance characteristics of a RWD vehicle which is literally the worst decision they could have gone with. It was most likely easier for them to do this than it would have been for them to create a well-designed AWD setup because then they would have needed to actually design gameplay that was properly challenging for a well-designed AWD vehicle.

Or are you suggesting that you actually have an alternative explanation that explains why the SRV has performance characteristics that are so markedly sub-optimal for an AWD vehicle, with severe oversteer that occurs even with mild traction loss? Or why it has better traction driving reverse than it does forwards? Are you suggesting that these characteristics are part of a logical design for an AWD vehicle?

I don't really expect you to answer this question properly because you clearly didn't understand the technical issues I was originally describing in my post. You also decided to assume that anyone who drives an AWD car would drive a Subaru even though they are well-known to use a symmetric AWD setup and are literally the opposite of what I was describing in my original post in this thread.



I already mentioned that aspects of Engineering and mat synthesis require mats that can only be collected with the SRV. I mentioned this in my post already. Did you actually read it? You do have a history of not actually reading my posts carefully before you reply to them.



Yes, it is a steep for many players as you would easily be able to tell by the many complains about the SRV that appear on these forums in various threads. As I mentioned earlier I drive a RWD-biased AWD car so I learned how to drive the SRV very quickly because I already know quite a bit about those types of handling characteristics. I could still immediately tell as soon as I started using the SRV that the excessive oversteeer and traction issues were dramatically exaggerated from what they needed to be if the SRV were designed with proper AWD handling characteristics.

Which mats for engineering can only be gathered with an SRV?

No matter how poor you believe the design to be, that is not mean that someone sat down and said "hey, how can we make this more challenging?"

And your "steep learning curve" theory (naturally, that didn't apply to you now did it?) has a problem if six year olds can master it.

Since you had no problems learning how to drive the SRV, its awfully noble of you to take up the fight for those who are less capable of typing (makes sense though...if a person is incapable of driving an SRV, they are unlikely to be able to type...)

Six year old has no problems with your latest wild speculation on perceived broken game mechanic.

Six.

 

[Devari]

Which mats for engineering can only be gathered with an SRV?

There are many examples. I'm surprized you have to ask this question if you play the game regularly. Do you actually do engineering on a regular basis? I'll just give you a few examples in case this is an actual question and you're not just trolling.

Until very recently (i.e, 2.4 patch) MEF was either exceptionally rare (earlier during Horizons) or was bugged so that it did not appear as a mission reward at all. This means that you needed to drive the SRV to scan data points on base runs to obtain it prior to 2.4. I actually created a thread describing how to do the base runs as efficiently as possible that is now over 50 pages long and includes numerous additional contributions that have made the base runs much easier. You can find the link in my sig if you want a "citation" for that.

There are many other Engineering mats that either cannot be obtained from missions or appear so rarely as mission rewards that they cannot be obtained in sufficient quantities unless you collect mats with the SRV. Arsenic, yttrium and polonium are good examples here as they are required for the higher-grade FSD range mods and FSD mat synethsis boosts.

There are many other examples for specific mods but given that overcharged multicannons (which require MEF for Grade 5 mods) and the FSD range increases are such popular mods and are discussed frequently on these forums I'm surprized you actually have to ask this question.

No matter how poor you believe the design to be, that is not mean that someone sat down and said "hey, how can we make this more challenging?"

And your "steep learning curve" theory (naturally, that didn't apply to you now did it?) has a problem if six year olds can master it.

Since you had no problems learning how to drive the SRV, its awfully noble of you to take up the fight for those who are less capable of typing (makes sense though...if a person is incapable of driving an SRV, they are unlikely to be able to type...)

Six year old has no problems with your latest wild speculation on perceived broken game mechanic.

Six.

So you're suggesting that simply because a six year old plays a game that this is a reliable indicator of whether that game is designed well or not? A six year old would not be capable of properly articulating what "good" game design actually is much less understanding it in the context of real-world driving characteristics.

The discussion I'm having and the discussion you're having are not even remotely similar. I'm talking about AWD handling characteristics based on real-world driving experience, you're talking about a child playing a game who won't even be old enough to drive an actual car for another 8-10 years.

Next you're going to tell me that because a six year old has no problems with only using two fire buttons that artificially limiting the fire buttons is "good" game design?

I'll be back in a bit, I'm going to get some popcorn. This should be good.

 

[Valorin]

On higher gravity worlds my SRV handles pretty well actually. It breaks out a bit too fast, even when using a flightstick to steer. I'd love to see a few more functions for that thing. Like a six-wheel on/off button (did somebody say ME-Andromeda?) or detractable spikes for the wheels. Perhaps even independent axis control when needed.

 

[Devari]

What are the odds of FDev changing the drive characteristics to give us the backward control for going forward instead?

About the same as the odds of them giving us more than two fire buttons, which the community has been asking for since launch and hasn't been addressed. The devs have actually told us that the lack of fire buttons is an intentional "challenge". One of the devs even compared the need to switch between multiple fire groups as being a similar game mechanic as a "Street Fighter button combo". It was literally the worst description of a deliberately bad gameplay decision I've ever heard from a dev. Not only are button-mashing combos only appropriate in a very specific type of arcade-style game the idea makes no sense at all for a "space sim game" like Elite that requires a high level of immersion to hold a player's interest.

 

[babelfisch]

I see that Devari is trolling the thread doing his thing again... What you need to realise is that your opinions are opinions, not facts.

In my opinion the SRV handles quite well if you consider that you are driving 100km/h on loose dirt with next to no gravity.

 

[Schmack]

Get some Dura Traks, Good tires.

Would be a great engineer feature tbh

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

There are many examples. I'm surprized you have to ask this question if you play the game regularly. Do you actually do engineering on a regular basis? I'll just give you a few examples in case this is an actual question and you're not just trolling.

Until very recently (i.e, 2.4 patch) MEF was either exceptionally rare (earlier during Horizons) or was bugged so that it did not appear as a mission reward at all. This means that you needed to drive the SRV to scan data points on base runs to obtain it prior to 2.4. I actually created a thread describing how to do the base runs as efficiently as possible that is now over 50 pages long and includes numerous additional contributions that have made the base runs much easier. You can find the link in my sig if you want a "citation" for that.

There are many other Engineering mats that either cannot be obtained from missions or appear so rarely as mission rewards that they cannot be obtained in sufficient quantities unless you collect mats with the SRV. Arsenic, yttrium and polonium are good examples here as they are required for the higher-grade FSD range mods and FSD mat synethsis boosts.

There are many other examples for specific mods but given that overcharged multicannons (which require MEF for Grade 5 mods) and the FSD range increases are such popular mods and are discussed frequently on these forums I'm surprized you actually have to ask this question.



So you're suggesting that simply because a six year old plays a game that this is a reliable indicator of whether that game is designed well or not? A six year old would not be capable of properly articulating what "good" game design actually is much less understanding it in the context of real-world driving characteristics.

The discussion I'm having and the discussion you're having are not even remotely similar. I'm talking about AWD handling characteristics based on real-world driving experience, you're talking about a child playing a game who won't even be old enough to drive an actual car for another 8-10 years.

Next you're going to tell me that because a six year old has no problems with only using two fire buttons that artificially limiting the fire buttons is "good" game design?

I'll be back in a bit, I'm going to get some popcorn. This should be good.

You're the one that mentioned the "steep learning curve of the SRV" that players need to "deal with" if they want to access gameplay that is "artificially locked behind SRV use."

Both of these statements are demonstrably untrue, but you are taking yourself so seriously that you seem to be incapable of comprehending the flaws in your logic.

And yeah, if you get to say that it isn't hard for you because of your experience with your daily driver, then I get to point out that it can't be that hard if a child can drive around for hours gathering mats with no problems.

This isn't about how accurate the handling is relative to optimal AWD set up...you said "steep learning curve."

Where is this "steep learning curve?"

You can have another try with the SRV required mats again, since you only listed one (that doesn't require an SRV. (And yes, I already know the answer, and yes, I do a lot of engineering. In fact, just finished G5 DD for my FDL, Anaconda, and DBx, each of which with greater than 133% optimal multiplier.)

 

[Devari]

You're the one that mentioned the "steep learning curve of the SRV" that players need to "deal with" if they want to access gameplay that is "artificially locked behind SRV use."

Both of these statements are demonstrably untrue, but you are taking yourself so seriously that you seem to be incapable of comprehending the flaws in your logic.

It's looking like you didn't even read my post again. I'm noticing a trend here. You ask a question which I answer directly, then you don't actually respond to the information I posted.

Trolling confirmed.

And yeah, if you get to say that it isn't hard for you because of your experience with your daily driver, then I get to point out that it can't be that hard if a child can drive around for hours gathering mats with no problems.

This isn't about how accurate the handling is relative to optimal AWD set up...you said "steep learning curve."

Where is this "steep learning curve?"

Seriously? You're still using the argument of "a six year old plays the game" rather than actually discussing the merits of the actual game mechanics in question?

You can have another try with the SRV equired mats again, since you only listed one (that doesn't require an SRV. (And yes, I already know the answer, and yes, I do a lot of engineering. In fact, just finished G5 DD for my FDL, Anaconda, and DBx, each of which with greater than 133% optimal multiplier.)

Again, you didn't read my post carefully. I mentioned very specific examples of mats that either appear very rarely as mission rewards or were bugged to not appear at all which required the SRV to acquire in any significant quantities. Did you actually read the various mats I listed?

You're really going to have to take the time to read my posts if you want me to keep replying to you. I've been on these forums nearly 3 years now and haven't needed to use my ignore list yet but I suspect that if this trend of replying without actually reading my posts continues you're going to be the first person I'll have to add to it.

 

[Devari]

I see that Devari is trolling the thread again... What you need to realise is that your opinions are opinions, not facts.

My opinions are based on a criticism of the gameplay design choices and on my own real-world driving experience. Certain posters are describing opinions that are based on whether a six year old is playing the game. Those types of discussions are not even remotely similar.

In my opinion the SRV handles quite well if you consider that you are driving 100km/h on loose dirt with next to no gravity.

Except that these same handling characteristics occur on high-gravity worlds as well. There is also no logical reason to design the SRV to have better traction when moving backwards than moving forwards.

Did you even read the posts in this thread? I get the sense that you didn't read them before replying.

 

[Suvi Anwar]

The question earlier about SRV Drive Assist...

Drive Assist ON for the SRV makes the throttle control "hold" it's speed after releasing the throttle up. Drive Assist OFF makes the throttle respond like it has a return spring. When you release the throttle up key, the throttle speed returns to zero.

Personally, I have DA off and have remapped the controls to use w/s for throttle and a/d for steering, which makes the SRV a LOT easier to drive.

 

[GraXXoR]

What annoys me is that it never just flips out a bit... It always ends up doing a 180... I can't help thinking that they've added a "flip out" mechanic not based on any physical principle, but just to give the SRV a "character building weakness" as they call such contrived disadvantages in that other space game.

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

It's looking like you didn't even read my post again. I'm noticing a trend here. You ask a question which I answer directly, then you don't actually respond to the information I posted.

Trolling confirmed.



Seriously? You're still using the argument of "a six year old plays the game" rather than actually discussing the merits of the actual game mechanics in question?



Again, you didn't read my post carefully. I mentioned very specific examples of mats that either appear very rarely as mission rewards or were bugged to not appear at all which required the SRV to acquire in any significant quantities. Did you actually read the various mats I listed?

You're really going to have to take the time to read my posts if you want me to keep replying to you. I've been on these forums nearly 3 years now and haven't needed to use my ignore list yet but I suspect that if this trend of replying without actually reading my posts continues you're going to be the first person I'll have to add to it.

You listed one mat that is not locked behind SRV, and you have not provided any explaination of "steep learning curve" for using the SRV.

I'm laughing about your inability to answer two questions directly (and your perception that your one mat, MEF, qualifies) and that this entire thread is supposedly about how difficult it is to drive the SRV, which you go so far to label as having a "steep learning curve", and yet, it is quite possibly the easiest and least complicated mechanic in the game. I honestly don't care if you reply or not. I just want to see how many words you can type to provide some over complicated assessment and flawed conclusions of a simple game mechanic.

My favorite part has been your assumption that it wasn't hard for you to figure out because of your real world experience, and not because it just isn't that complicated in the first place.

 

[Hadarmil]

Maybe Fdevs designed the SRV with steering wheels in mind...ones with at least 900deg.

They should give the option of locking rear wheels or lock them automatically at high speeds.

Or...(opens mouth wide with anime style glint in eye)Maybe even make the SRV bay more as a garage where we can change tires and tune the thrusters to give constant downward force - imagine a tuning screen for the SRV where you can play with different stats...add in game racing tracks, couple more SRVs with different components and beyond's better planets and you've got a whole new game within Elite whose foundations are already built.

Woo-ent dat be somtin?

 

[Devari]

You listed one mat that is not locked behind SRV

Sorry, but I answered this several times and listed several mats. Can you list them back? If not then you simply haven't read my post.

and you have not provided any explaination of "steep learning curve" for using the SRV.

You're going to have to go back to my post and list back the flaws I described in the SRV's driving characteristics. If you can't do that then you haven't read or understood what I've already typed.

I'm laughing about your inability to answer two questions directly (and your perception that your one mat, MEF, qualifies) and that this entire thread is supposedly about how difficult it is to drive the SRV, which you go so far to label as having a "steep learning curve", and yet, it is quite possibly the easiest and least complicated mechanic in the game. I honestly don't care if you reply or not. I just want to see how many words you can type to provide some over complicated assessment and flawed conclusions of a simple game mechanic.

My favorite part has been your assumption that it wasn't hard for you to figure out because of your real world experience, and not because it just isn't that complicated in the first place.

I've answered all those questions in detail, you either didn't read or didn't understand my answers.

If you want me to reply from now on you're going to need to demonstrate you've read and understood my posts. Otherwise you're simply trolling me and there is enough trolling that goes on in the game itself. I don't intend to deal with that here on the forums as well.