Why does Planet Coaster use Denuvo?

Everfades

E
First of all: As you can see I already bought this game and while I don't regret that I would NOT have bought it if I knew it would get Denuvo implemenatation. Witcher 3 as all of CD Projects games have a no DRM philosophy and they earn tons of money and even say if anything it boosts their sales and doesn't lower them. Or Dragon's Dogma on PC which capcom released without denuvo (even though they first wanted to but the feedback was horrible) and said in a press conference after release that it is their biggest selling success on steam they ever had and their third most selling game of all time! And just look at the sales from GOG games which are all 100% DRM free. This paragraph was just there to shut those guys mouthes who SERIOUSLY believe that DRM would "protect" a game. I buy most of my games after I tried them. If it doesn't have a demo I have to use other ways. If the game has denuvo then I just skip it. There are more games coming out each week than I could ever play even if I didn't have a job and family.

Now what my real issue with DRM of any kind is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal
One of many huge scandals around DRM protection where the creators of the DRM (WHICH ARE NOT THE PEOPLE CREATING THE GAME BUT THIRD PARTY COMPANIES LIKE DENUVO) implemtended malicious code or had loopholes which malicious code could abuse. And the grounders of Denuvo were involved in the scandal I posted above! And as they are hired third party members which actually focus on encryption they could easily snuck in some malicious codes in their "protection" to get some userdata as they already did before. Noone would notice, the game developers can't know as they don't implement denuvo themself and nobody would ever know sold data like passwords etc. come from denuvo if they do it right. (the black market for stolen data is worth billions) Ontop of all that such DRM protections may create an issue if you want to play the game again in say 15 years from now. Maybe denuvo and planet coaster devs long vanished at that point and when you want to play the game: NOPE - can't get it running anymore - happaned to several older EA games after they shut down the activation servers for those and that company even still exists and doesn't care about those peeps who can't use their bought games now. (and come on, i still play rct2 from time to time and that's 15 years old, too)

So basically we got
-just a low influence on sales (if there are any at all - nobody can prove that and it could even increase sales as cd project says: many peeps who downloaded witcher 3 later bought it because the game was great)
-denuvo costs 100.000 dollars for AAA games (and as the advertisement campaigns were a huge success and kicksterter worked out great Planet Coaster is most likely considered one) Basically 100.000 down the drain for maybe 10.000 dollars you "saved" in extra sales
-risk of malicious code or loopholes for trojans or viruses which Frontier has no control over and don't forget the possible impact of DRM on performance and power consumption of your system
-risk of not being able to play this game in 15 years if you want to show it to your kids for nostalgic reasons or because nothing like it came out till then
-risk of ❤︎❤︎❤︎❤︎❤︎❤︎❤︎ of customers (like me) which may lead to them not buying any more of their products in the future if they include denuvo
-risk of compatibility issues with your DRM (even Gaben Newell said that DRM should not be used and that even if it would secure a game it would not increase sales - even showing that sales actually increased after denuvo drm was broken for some games like dragon age inquisition - and that even the smallest risk of making your product worse of a customer is not worth taking as it might affect the sales even more than any downloads ever would)


Why pay so much money for a system which MIGHT and has never been proven to increase sales and has the risk of hurting sales AND many other risks as mentioned above? If it was completely free to implement - fine take the risk, gamble away your reputation - but denuvo costs a good margin of money. And you are supporting people who used to steal data which they might still do and noone may ever find out. If future titles of frontier use denuvo I will definitly not buy them. [down] I supported divinity original sin with 500 dollars and would not have done that if they didn't say that they will release it completely DRM free. As they kept their promise and even released a gog version I now payed another 500 dollars for their divinity original sin 2 kickstarter - and so did MANY others. Just when DRM was finally starting to fade away with GOG and other systems denuvo brought it back and while they can't prove any benefits they surely love to pretend it would be great to increase sales. And companies just fall for that trap. It's like diamonds - they are one of the unrarest things on our planet but the monopoly of the mines and good advertisement made their prices go up by 34000% since 1920 when they started their insane advertisement campaign. Are people really that stupid to still fall for liars in an age where you can easily google and find out about such issues within mere minutes? If you checked denuvos repuation outside of what THEY say you would know that many people despise them - even large companies and large people in the industry like Gaben Newell. Do some research before you buy something for 100k. [sour]

That's all folks. Have a nice day. May Planet Coaster become the greatest Themepark Simulator we have seen to this day. That sour taste of denuvo may never vanish but I'm still glad we get to see a great new themepark game.
 

breezerHOG1

breezerHOG1
You actually have some valid points, but I dont think its a big deal mainly because I know there is nothing I can do. I used to play a lot more games but I got burned out with xbox360 and I really hate DLC. Prices on games are pretty bad these days but Planet Coaster was discounted pretty heavily IMO so Im happy. Its not like theres much competition in the coaster market (for now anyway). But I agree that Frontier could have done a better job on marketing/organizing the alpha. Too late now though, at least the game seems to be turning out pretty good. Im sure in 5-10 years it wont matter, lets see how they do with their add-ons for PC and then we can complain about what they can improve for PC2
 

Abletudu

Abletudu
All this paranoia because what happened in the past. The NSA does more to infiltrate your computers than Denuvo ever did, maybe that is what you should really be worried about.
 

breezerHOG1

breezerHOG1
@BJ- true

@Parkmaker-
thats a completely different topic of concern. the OP mentioned that Denuvo could cause CPU slowdown (most likely very minimally) but also that if Denuvo were to fail for some reason in the future, PC could potentially stop working. Same could be said for if Steam were to get shutdown, all our workshop stuff will be gone. Obviously Frontier has thought this all out already. I'm sure if in 5-10 years we lost steam for some reason, modders would find a way to fix the game (hopefully) but as far as denuvo stealing info, yea well, thats the risk of living online... but the concern over Denuvo is very minimal IMO. For me, the best point the OP made was about the cost vs what they saved, marketing etc.
 
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danijami23

D
creaper said:
LOL BJ Thats locked! As Im sure this will be too [cool]
Click to expand...
And a good thing too. I tried to make some very similar points to the OP and got repeatedly accused of being a thief of a game I've never played, by people who don't even know me. I have since changed my mind about refusing to buy PC, as it simply looks far too good to miss, but it'll be the only Denuvo game i make that sacrifice for.

I'd be especially irked if I'd been an early bird buyer and FD had used my money to buy a stupid protection that we know not enough about to trust it.
 
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Eileithia

E
I don't get all the Denuvo hate.

  1. It only calls home if/when there's an update - you can play offline with no time limit
  2. There's nothing stopping Frontier from injecting malicious code/loopholes into your computer. Not saying they would do this but really any software (DRM or not) has this potential risk.
  3. If Denuvo dies before PC is finished, I'm sure Frontier would push out a patch to remove it so their title is still playable
  4. If PC dies before Denuvo - See number 1, and if Frontier is closing development there's no reason they couldn't remove Denuvo's restrictions on their final patch
  5. Modding has already been confirmed as a feature that "can" be included based on their file structure (Don't need access to the .exe to create UGC)

Honestly, it makes sense for Frontier to protect their IP, and instead of creating their own DRM solution to do so, they're using a reputable 3rd party.
 

Kerrash

Kerrash
Perhaps the question instead should be. "Why do you think Frontier have decided to add it at this point?" [yesnod]
 

Angelis1

Angelis1
Kerrash said:
Perhaps the question instead should be. "Why do you think Frontier have decided to add it at this point?" [yesnod]
Click to expand...
logo.jpg
 

Fishook

Fishook
The only reason the Witcher 3 did'nt have any DRM is because CD Project own GoG and have additional income to support the game. The fact that the game is massive and rather good also helped its sales. It if was 10 hours in length but brilliant it would of bombed and pirated bucket loads.

I have never had any problems with DRM in 20 years plus of PC gaming (no intrest playing older games), but I just wish I could just transfer my license's to my Family and friend's kids (after 6-12 mths or so). Once you get used to not paying for stuff it's very difficult for people to change. Humble Bundles and cheap games have helped reduce piracy, but people people are reluctant to play for new releases unless its got multiplayer or you can get loads of hours out it.

Planet Coaster will sell very well IMO, but it main fan base is not hardcore gamers, so if was DRM free the piracy levels will skyrocket as they are the owns more likely to pirate games. There was a interesting article a while back by Sports Interactive (Football Manager) into piracy levels especially in lesser developed countries. That's why F2P games are so popular in these countries with lower spec machines as well as kids. (Never invested any time in these games, as I can afford games I want to play).
 

Ramm

Ramm
Only downside of denuvo is no modding or limited modding

i hope it doesnt affect the gameplay, if it is gonna affect gameplay i hope they choose to only use denuvo for half a year or so so we can use mods after that
 

danijami23

D
Denuvo wouldn't hinder modding in any way, as the game's executable is not tampered with by modders in anyway.

That aside, I've been having a good think about DRM since the other thread and what I learned while reading it. And think my the ultimate issue with DRM is not the impact it has (positive or negative) on sales or developers, it's the impact it has on the real paying customers.

In the first instance, you have the historic fact that every DRM other than Denuvo has been cracked in a very short time. That leaves the only people having to deal with software having DRM is the people who buy it. While for most it is a painless experience, those who have purchased new hardware (CPU, Motherboard) will tell you it's a pain in the bum, since licensing is tied to your machine's hardware ID. It can be difficult or impossible to get your game back, as lots of anecdotal sources will be able to tell you. I lost , access to one of the Arkham games for this reason, it was annoying. No paying customer should be expected to buy their games twice.

In the second instance, you have the performance issues which have historically been associated with it, something which again is only impacting the people who have paid for the game. This is alleged not to be the case with Denuvo, which is good if it's true, but the hardware problem above is still a thing.

The final issue is the potential environment of mistrust especially given the reputation of actual information theft by people who are still in the industry (looking at you Denuvo). I realise that's not the case with some people, but it still exists. Many resent the issues presented by the abov, and will steer away from DRM 'infested' software. I don't buy any games at all that contain any DRM other than steam's version, which in my eyes is the ONLY one that doles the do all it can to get in the way; and I'm not the only one who believes this and it has a big impact on their spending habits.

Research has shown time (http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2003/HPL-2003-110.pdf) and again that DRM is not effective or required, yet developers insist on using it. I understand and respect the reasoning behind it, but I'm really not sold on the idea that the impact on real customers is not being actively considered by the developers, Just sales. Sell sell sell. I dunno, that kind ofnjust bums me out a bit.

With all this rant said. I will probably buy Planet Coaster, since I would crawl over broken glass with my pants down to get a chance to play that game. But I would still like devs to see the side of the argument that I'm coming from, instead of covering their ears and counting the receipts.
 

Ramm

Ramm
danijami23 said:
Denuvo wouldn't hinder modding in any way, as the game's executable is not tampered with by modders in anyway.

That aside, I've been having a good think about DRM since the other thread and what I learned while reading it. And think my the ultimate issue with DRM is not the impact it has (positive or negative) on sales or developers, it's the impact it has on the real paying customers.

In the first instance, you have the historic fact that every DRM other than Denuvo has been cracked in a very short time. That leaves the only people having to deal with software having DRM is the people who buy it. While for most it is a painless experience, those who have purchased new hardware (CPU, Motherboard) will tell you it's a pain in the bum, since licensing is tied to your machine's hardware ID. It can be difficult or impossible to get your game back, as lots of anecdotal sources will be able to tell you. I lost , access to one of the Arkham games for this reason, it was annoying. No paying customer should be expected to buy their games twice.

In the second instance, you have the performance issues which have historically been associated with it, something which again is only impacting the people who have paid for the game. This is alleged not to be the case with Denuvo, which is good if it's true, but the hardware problem above is still a thing.

The final issue is the potential environment of mistrust especially given the reputation of actual information theft by people who are still in the industry (looking at you Denuvo). I realise that's not the case with some people, but it still exists. Many resent the issues presented by the abov, and will steer away from DRM 'infested' software. I don't buy any games at all that contain any DRM other than steam's version, which in my eyes is the ONLY one that doles the do all it can to get in the way; and I'm not the only one who believes this and it has a big impact on their spending habits.

Research has shown time (http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2003/HPL-2003-110.pdf) and again that DRM is not effective or required, yet developers insist on using it. I understand and respect the reasoning behind it, but I'm really not sold on the idea that the impact on real customers is not being actively considered by the developers, Just sales. Sell sell sell. I dunno, that kind ofnjust bums me out a bit.

With all this rant said. I will probably buy Planet Coaster, since I would crawl over broken glass with my pants down to get a chance to play that game. But I would still like devs to see the side of the argument that I'm coming from, instead of covering their ears and counting the receipts.
Click to expand...
What? So when I buy new CPU mobo and ram Denuvo doesnt remember that I own the game?
 
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