Why does Planet Coaster use Denuvo?

What? So when I buy new CPU mobo and ram Denuvo doesnt remember that I own the game?

Not necessarily, Denuvo locks you to 4 hardware changes per 24 hours, so I think their license is a bit more sophisticated than that. Historically though with other DRMs it's been a problem. Even with Steam games by the way Mr Parkmaker, the arkham game I lost was from Steam
 
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What? So when I buy new CPU mobo and ram Denuvo doesnt remember that I own the game?
No, it'll detect the change in whatever signature it uses to identify your computer, and go online to re-verify. As I understand it, this should be transparent. The only time it'll give you grief is if you happen to not have an internet connection the first time you start Planet Coaster after updating your hardware.
 
[...] think my the ultimate issue with DRM is not the impact it has (positive or negative) on sales or developers, it's the impact it has on the real paying customers.
At least modern forms of DRM are attempting to inconvenience the consumer as little as possible. If it's as in your face as those "you wouldn't steal a car..." adverts that only appear on the beginning of legitimately bought DVDs, then it's failed to do its job very well.

In the first instance, you have the historic fact that every DRM other than Denuvo has been cracked in a very short time. That leaves the only people having to deal with software having DRM is the people who buy it. While for most it is a painless experience, those who have purchased new hardware (CPU, Motherboard) will tell you it's a pain in the bum, since licensing is tied to your machine's hardware ID. It can be difficult or impossible to get your game back, as lots of anecdotal sources will be able to tell you. I lost , access to one of the Arkham games for this reason, it was annoying. No paying customer should be expected to buy their games twice.
I've indeed been stung by this in the past. Not with games, but when digital music was first becoming a thing. I don't know how much music I bought that eventually I lost access to because a storefront disappeared or because it was tied to my MP3 player. These *should* be lessons and things of the past but there are still situations where you can legitimately lose access to your libraries (or at least certain functionality from your library) with platforms like Steam.

In the second instance, you have the performance issues which have historically been associated with it, something which again is only impacting the people who have paid for the game. This is alleged not to be the case with Denuvo, which is good if it's true, but the hardware problem above is still a thing.
The hardware problem is only a thing if it's really a thing. I haven't yet seen any (even anecdotal) evidence that it's a thing, other than the obvious requirement for a one-time internet access.

The final issue is the potential environment of mistrust especially given the reputation of actual information theft by people who are still in the industry (looking at you Denuvo).
I agree that this is an issue, and Denuvo is an interesting case as they're the remnants of the team responsible for the Sony rootkit. It's unfortunate, but they're the people with the experience and expertise in the field of DRM / anti-tamper. There's always going to be some mistrust there.

Research has shown time (http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2003/HPL-2003-110.pdf) and again that DRM is not effective or required, yet developers insist on using it. I understand and respect the reasoning behind it, but I'm really not sold on the idea that the impact on real customers is not being actively considered by the developers, Just sales. Sell sell sell. I dunno, that kind ofnjust bums me out a bit.
That particular research is 13 years old, and did not foresee the type of anti-tamper that Denuvo provides. It's yet to be seen truly how effective it is at converting a potential sale lost through piracy into a sale gained. Anecdotally the important period for a game is around the first 2-4 weeks after it's released (which is when it'll sell the majority of copies). Denuvo aims to keep the game uncrackable for that sort of timeframe.

And yes, this is about a developer trying to sell as many copies as possible. Frontier have spent a lot of money on this game without any external backing (let's assume £10m which I think is about in the ballpark). At a standard £30 minus Steam's cut and overheads, they're probably making around £20 per copy. That means just to break even they have to sell 500,000 copies of the game. As a studio they're trying to grow enough to keep investing in their own games, which means they really need to be shifting many more copies than that. If they fail, they're reliant on just the one franchise (Elite) to keep them going, and there isn't a huge amount of cash they can leverage out of that until they've finished delivering this season of updates (probably around another 6 months). So for a company like Frontier lost sales impact their bottom line directly. I'm not saying there aren't better ways, and I'd truly prefer to see *all* games released DRM free. But Frontier must have looked at the piracy rates of the earlier Alpha releases and decided that's not what they want to see for the release.

They aren't implementing Denuvo just because they can. They aren't implementing it to annoy the consumer. They're doing it because they legitimately feel that piracy will lead to a level of lost sales that will hurt them as a business, more so than the negative PR associated with implementing Denuvo.
 
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Research has shown time (http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2003/HPL-2003-110.pdf) and again that DRM is not effective or required, yet developers insist on using it.
....
I don't think it's the developers choice, but it comes from higher management. Now I believe those people rarely show their cards, and I don't think they will let the community know why they choose to implement this. To Frontier/PC management, If you feel my statement is not correct, I'd encourage you to prove me wrong.
Now the questions I would like to ask them are these:
When did you feel the need to start protecting the project with DRM? Is it because of the extensive Alpha time?
Was this decision made before or after the decision to release on Steam?
Was the decision influenced by results on previous projects? Zoo Tycoon, Elite Dangerous, ... ?

How will you measure the impact that Denuvo has on net results?
Was there a counter study on the impact without DRM/Denuvo?
Did you consider alternative DRM packages, and why did the choice go to Denuvo?

If management have asked these questions themselves, but do not wish to share them, all I hope is that the answers have not left them feeling bad from a human perspective. If it did, I hope they reflect on their choice and learn from this experience.
 
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AndyC1

A
Planet Coaster has always been protected with DRM. We've never said it would be DRM free, nor has a build ever been released without DRM (you required a Fronter Account and to be signed in via the Frontier Launchpad).

Cheers

Andy
 
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Planet Coaster has always been protected with DRM. We've never said it would be DRM free, nor has a build ever been released without DRM (you required a Fronter Account and to be signed in via the Frontier Launchpad).

Cheers

Andy

Hi Andy, thanks for your response. So what is the motivation behind the move to a third party group like Denuvo? Did their pedigree in SecuRom and the Sony DADC scandal influence your decision in any way? As I mentioned in my above post, these are thing that have caused me concern, especially given that in these circumstances it's the loyal customer (I would count myself in this camp; I have purchased many FD games and shall likely continue) who faces the risk of malicious software on their machines , not those who are using alternative methods. Also, and this is secondary because I haven't spent any money on PC yet, but I might be a little irked if I had paid for the early bird, only to see that money appear to be spent on expensive and not necessarily effective copy protection. I imagine I wouldn't be the only person made to feel that way either.

All that aside, I don't want this to come across as blind criticism just because it's cool to hate Denuvo right now. I have enormous respect for you guys, and I'd give my pancreas to play this game so 30 quid seems very reasonable to me. In fact the opportunity to be able to ask you these questions and get a response is one of the reasons you guys are great, and will continue to get my custom.
 
Hi Andy, thanks for your response. So what is the motivation behind the move to a third party group like Denuvo? Did their pedigree in SecuRom and the Sony DADC scandal influence your decision in any way? As I mentioned in my above post, these are thing that have caused me concern, especially given that in these circumstances it's the loyal customer (I would count myself in this camp; I have purchased many FD games and shall likely continue) who faces the risk of malicious software on their machines , not those who are using alternative methods. Also, and this is secondary because I haven't spent any money on PC yet, but I might be a little irked if I had paid for the early bird, only to see that money appear to be spent on expensive and not necessarily effective copy protection. I imagine I wouldn't be the only person made to feel that way either.

All that aside, I don't want this to come across as blind criticism just because it's cool to hate Denuvo right now. I have enormous respect for you guys, and I'd give my pancreas to play this game so 30 quid seems very reasonable to me. In fact the opportunity to be able to ask you these questions and get a response is one of the reasons you guys are great, and will continue to get my custom.

You run the risk of installing malicious software on your PC with any software you buy, Denuvo or not. Just like there's always a risk of food poisoning with any food you buy without knowing where it came from.

I've yet to see any evidence of Denuvo interfering with my PC and I don't expect I will. And, as far as I'm aware, my identity has not been stolen yet.
 
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You run the risk of installing malicious software on your PC with any software you buy, Denuvo or not. Just like there's always a risk of food poisoning with any food you buy without knowing where it came from.

I've yet to see any evidence of Denuvo interfering with my PC and I don't expect I will. And, as far as I'm aware, my identity has not been stolen yet.

So you don't find it discomforting that the people working on Denuvo are the very same people who were responsible for installing illegal and exploitable rootkits , scooped up during a management buyout of Sony DADC Digitalworks? That might not be empirical evidence that Denuvo specifically is doing it, but I think it's fair to wholly mistrust that particular pedigree.
 
So you don't find it discomforting that the people working on Denuvo are the very same people who were responsible for installing illegal and exploitable rootkits , scooped up during a management buyout of Sony DADC Digitalworks? That might not be empirical evidence that Denuvo specifically is doing it, but I think it's fair to wholly mistrust that particular pedigree.

Nope. Because I know that any company is just as likely to be taking part in such illegal activities.
 
Nope. Because I know that any company is just as likely to be taking part in such illegal activities.

Especially your ISP's and Government agencies. Think about it, you could not have internet access without your ISP and don't think that government agencies don't plant malware sometimes without warrants or your knowledge, think "1984".
 
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WingardiumLevicoaster

Volunteer Moderator
Especially your ISP's and Government agencies. Think about it, you could not have internet access without your ISP and don't think that government agencies don't plant malware sometimes without warrants or your knowledge, think "1984".

I can back this up with I have read books on the subject. All software is risky.
 
Nope. Because I know that any company is just as likely to be taking part in such illegal activities.

A company made from people who put illegal and exploitable rootkits into your system with their past projects (Securom and Sony DADC) is definitly more likely to be taking part in such illegal activities. That's why Denuvo is definitly the kind of protection with a HIGHER risk of malicious code being included. I know that any company could do that. But saying that any company is AS LIKELY is just plain wrong. [weird] Buying from someone who did bad things before is definitly a lot more risky than buying from someone without such a bad reputation. The risk is still there but definitly not as high as with the bad reputation guys. It's like saying: Let's make Trump president, he has bad reputation but who cares, he is as likely to do something bad as Sanders or Hillary. [wacky]
 
A company made from people who put illegal and exploitable rootkits into your system with their past projects (Securom and Sony DADC) is definitly more likely to be taking part in such illegal activities. That's why Denuvo is definitly the kind of protection with a HIGHER risk of malicious code being included. I know that any company could do that. But saying that any company is AS LIKELY is just plain wrong. [weird] Buying from someone who did bad things before is definitly a lot more risky than buying from someone without such a bad reputation. The risk is still there but definitly not as high as with the bad reputation guys. It's like saying: Let's make Trump president, he has bad reputation but who cares, he is as likely to do something bad as Sanders or Hillary. [wacky]

Just because you've not heard about a company doing something illegal doesn't mean they are not or have not been doing it. It just means they haven't been caught yet. What if Denuvo had been doing all those things but nobody knew about it? Would you then say there was a risk of it being malicious or not?
 
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Just because you've not heard about a company doing something illegal doesn't mean they are not or have not been doing it. It just means they haven't been caught yet. What if Denuvo had been doing all those things but nobody knew about it? Would you then say there was a risk of it being malicious or not?

I would say there is definitly still a risk. As in any not open source project. Especially a higly encrypted one like denuvo. Any third party involved in a project is a high security risk for the end consumer. (unless their software is open source - which will never happen for a copyright protection [wacky] But there is more than DRM out there. [big grin]) And while Frontier could possibly include malicious code into their game they are not a company focusing on hiding processes and encryption. A rootkit from someone who doesn't work in a field were it is all about hiding code and encrypting code would most likely be found by any mediocre antivirus software before being installed. So the risk of a game programmer finding a way to install a rootkit unnoticed is much lower than from a denuvo dev. But yeah - a risk is always there. But any additional risk is bad for the consumer. Oh well - maybe at least the first addon will ditch denuvo. Buying software from them is like buying a bomb from someone who used to blow up customers in the past. [wacky]

On an unrelated side note: Can't wait to see all the things that will be in the release version of Planet Coaster. [big grin] I really hope it will live up to it's promises. Release seems really soon for what we've seen so far. (but as any company they will release most features after they are complete - they most likely have many things almost done, including many new themes and the campaign mode, but want to have everything working correctly before including it)
 
Just because you've not heard about a company doing something illegal doesn't mean they are not or have not been doing it. It just means they haven't been caught yet. What if Denuvo had been doing all those things but nobody knew about it? Would you then say there was a risk of it being malicious or not?



That is a frankly absurd argument. If you can't see the value of using an individual or company's reputation as a marker for how risky it is to do business, then I really have nothing more to say to you, because we are so not on the same page in any possible way. [Inappropriate analogy removed]. Come on man, be real. I appreciate that there is some truth to your statement, but you have joined this discussion only from a contrarian angle, rather than actually being willing to have some discussion on the matter.
 
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Brett C

Frontier
Especially your ISP's and Government agencies. Think about it, you could not have internet access without your ISP and don't think that government agencies don't plant malware sometimes without warrants or your knowledge, think "1984".

Parkmaker isn't incorrect on this accusation either. It's been known that ATT utilizes port-mirroring and filtering/splitting of data at PoP locations.

Many ISP's in the states (and worldwide) do keep some form of logging on your internet account. As it what each ISP does keep track of, that's anyone's guess. It could be data activity, generic metadata, data quality, DNS logs (heh heh ISP DPS servers), the list goes on.
 
My point here out if it all is more that surely the developers (Frontier) in this case would not be able to check for Rootkit and such stuff? Sony was different in that they were the whole team with no one technical to oversee but surely a Dev team who has access to this stuff and wants to know what is being put into the game for us all to download would be easier to check.

In regards to a lot of other points, most seem to be hearsay and nothing more with people looking for reasons really.
 
ISP's tend to keep track of what you download and that is a fact not hear say. How do you think government agencies know what you have on your computer if the ISP doesn't tell them or they don't plant trackers on the web?
 
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Parkmaker isn't incorrect on this accusation either. It's been known that ATT utilizes port-mirroring and filtering/splitting of data at PoP locations.

Many ISP's in the states (and worldwide) do keep some form of logging on your internet account. As it what each ISP does keep track of, that's anyone's guess. It could be data activity, generic metadata, data quality, DNS logs (heh heh ISP DPS servers), the list goes on.

In Germany it's even law that the ISP has to track and save all useractivity for 2 years. [wacky]

My point here out if it all is more that surely the developers (Frontier) in this case would not be able to check for Rootkit and such stuff? Sony was different in that they were the whole team with no one technical to oversee but surely a Dev team who has access to this stuff and wants to know what is being put into the game for us all to download would be easier to check.

In regards to a lot of other points, most seem to be hearsay and nothing more with people looking for reasons really.

Which of them are hearsay? :) Performance issues - see many EA games with DRM enabled compared to using "methods" to stop DRM checks. Games not working anymore due to activation servers not existing anymore - see many of the rereleases of games on gog, before the rerelease some of those were actually playable on modern machines (most of them are rereleased because they wont work after 98 or XP though). Before the gog release you were only able to play some of your BOUGHT games by using a crack which is ridiculous. For purchases lost: Digital Comics Distributor JManga Closing Down... And Deleting Everyone's purchases permanently. For issues with protection blocking you from playing your bought copy of a game after which you have to call the company to get it reactivated: all newer ANNO titles Ubisoft. (had that happen myself - took 2 weeks for them to reactivate the key on my account because I used it on my Laptop while being in a different country -.- Sure I was able to play it again afterwards - but only because 1. the company does still exist 2. it still took them 2 weeks!!! and I couldn't play in that time!)

The only part which you can't check is if it actually affects sales or not. Witcher 3 devs claim NOT having DRM actually increases sales, Gaben Newell says the same. (in one of his older interviews he even said "show me the point in a sales chart where the game was cracked - there is no increase or decrease in sales at that point which is out of the ordinary for almost all games" - you can google that interview, pretty interesting stuff in that one) On the other hand we got denuvo claiming it would increase sales and EA which pretty much is "crap for the masses" company which is a completely different market and they NEVER bring data to back their claims up!

Btw, will Planet Coaster have a demo at least? Because having denuvo and no demo means many people won't buy it because they can't try it. (I'm normally one of those peeps but I was able to try the alpha 1 out and was amazed of the nice UI features which got me hooked)

EDIT: From what I have read with tests before and after Denuvo implemantation on some games it at least does not hit performance at all. :) At least not enough to make it noticable.
 
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