Why does ship been designed completly randomly ?

[Peuwi]

Currently the game offer to players more than 30 different space ships.
Unfortunately, the one who designed it made it with plenty of massives mistakes (the T9 having less 30% cargo than cutter, explorer jumping less than anaconda, cutter expected to be a fighter, viper slower than cobra, python better trader on outpost than any trade ships, passengers ships terribly bad at travel mission until this update, etc.)

Even more, all theses ships were almost all designed with any vision. It's more about random rolls, and enjoy what come out, we'll fix it later.

(I wonder which curriculum is required to be game designer)

At first time, many ships were designed to be "starter" space ships, for players without enough money. Obviously, this idea couldnt stand with time, as all players get more money, and income rose quickly even for starting players as they can now get their endgame space ship within a few hours. This is slowly corrected, but we still have 50% of ship currently useless once we have enough money for better.

The irony is that even ship building system is quite powerful, allowing to design many kind of ship while staying under global constraints (example of constraint : same effect of a given module on every ship), but ships design itself it terribly bad.
(it remind me this true story https://commeconvenu.com/lire# - in french, sry - where the boss ask for complete crazy game changes, making the whole company sink, while developers cries)

Anyway, many ships doesnt fit in any role, many ships doesnt fit in their supposed role, and remaining ship often doesnt completely fit in their role either.
Of course, the point is not to limit each ship to a given role. Player should keep having a choice. But a choice is made among several viable choices, not random stupid pointless ideas. And for crazy ideas, you can still make it whatever the vessels you'll want (a sidewinder went to beagle point, and that's great).

So, here is a way ship could have been seriously designed.
Different roles in the game :
Non fighting (would be pointless to have pnj with such ships in conflict role, or acting as pirate) :
- Trader (slow, low agility, huge cargo, huge jump loaded, low jump empty, low firepower, high defense)
- Explorer (slow, low agility, few cargo, low jump loaded, huge jump empty, low firepower, low defense)
- long range trader : mix between these 2 above
- short range passengers (like trader, with smaller internals and higher speed + luxury style)
- long range passenger (like long range trader, with smaller internals and higher speed + luxury style)
- courier (fast, medium agility, few cargo, average jump loaded, good jump empty, low firepower, low defense)
- racer (extreme courier with higher speed and agility, and much lower jump capability)

Fighting (how could it have been no difference at all between war ship, bounty hunters and pirates ...) :
- warship (slow, medium agility, few cargo, low jump empty&loaded, medium firepower, very high defense + many hardpoints)
- Pirates : higher cargo, lower agility (fast, low agility, high cargo, medium jump empty, medium jump loaded, medium firepower, average defense + many utilities)
- Bounty hunting (fast, high agility, few cargo, medium jump empty, low jump loaded, high firepower, average defense + many utilities)
- all rounder mission ship (same that bounty hunter, slower, with higher jump range, and with a better attack/defense balance)
- miner (slow, medium agility, high cargo, average jump empty&loaded, low firepower, very high defense + many internals + many hardpoints)

-> it's already 11 different ships, without any difference of size, or even differences between play styles (hitbox size, hardpoint spread, shield vs armor, speed vs agility, max fuel scoop, supercruise agility ...)

Here, we can mix between different sizes :
- small pad : cheapest, fastest, most agile, higher base jump, worse cargo, worse defense, average firepower. The idea is to get quickly for a low price a rather quite good ship for a given role. Less capable of multi-role.
- medium pad : same that small for a given role, but with many outfitting possibilities: big internal component (so high maxed out price), more cargo, utilities, weapons, sightly more extreme for a given role (sighly faster for the race, sightly better jump, sightly more damage for fighter), and better defense. Small base price. Some of them fighter launching capable (only the fighters roles). The best ship for outfitting fans.
- large pad : huge base price, same outfitting possibilities than medium, biggest cargo, best defense, low speed, low agility, and only a slightly better firepower to take account of low agility. All of them fighter launching capable. Less outfitting capabilities due to several modules non-modifiables (cargo rack, repair, collector, srv/fighter), and several scanners included within the sensor), making them more multi role capables. Designed to be the master spaceship for a role, but usually not the most time&cost efficient.

-> now, it's 33 different ships, all really designed for a given role, without even taking account on different play style. If you make for each ship the empire vs federal playstyle, you get 66 differents ships.

And I probably missed some roles (you'll tell me) -> for example, I missed the "starter free ship", aka sidewinder, which is a role of itself.
If we try to apply this ship role grid to our current ships, you'll realize many role doesnt have any ship designed for, than some ships will take 12 roles at once, and some others wont be efficients for any role.

If you read all of that, you maybe wondered how to distinct jump range empty and loaded ... It's quite easy with current rules
-> hull mass : huge jump empty imply a lower mass than average, huge jump loaded/low jump empty imply a very high hull mass.
Obviously, low jump empty is relative to other ships : the empty mass is always slightly higher that loaded on absolute values.
It give trader, short range passenger, pirate, miner needing to be heavy, while explorer, courier, racer and bounty hunter, and all rounder needs a light hull... Especially small explorers !

I repeat, making such ship doesnt mean that it will be forbiden, or even inefficient to use a ship for an other role (like a miner for pirating). It doesnt mean either than outfitting cannot change completely the role of a ship.
It only ensure that all ship are really different, and all ship have at least one role where they are really good, and no ship is simply the best for 5 different activities (previously the anaconda, and the cutter since then)


And obviously, we know it's waaaaaayyy too late. It should have been done at the start of the game. It's only something which is currently, slowly (taking 10 years ?), fixing.

To discuss.

 

[Chris Simon]

Thanks for interesting read.

The problem is that your ideas, how ever interesting they may be, are kind of incompatible with the whole outfitting system and how the game works. Maybe the next game.

 

[Iskariot]

Unfortunately, the one who designed it made it with plenty of massives mistakes (the T9 having less 30% cargo than cutter, explorer jumping less than anaconda, cutter expected to be a fighter, viper slower than cobra, python better trader on outpost than any trade ships, passengers ships terribly bad at travel mission until this update, etc.)

I disagree with your complete lists of what you perceive to be mistakes.
I won't go into it here in detail but for every decision it is easy to come up with a good explanation.
The fact that you don't agree with design decisions doesn't mean they are wrong, or are mistakes.

Even more, all theses ships were almost all designed with any vision. It's more about random rolls, and enjoy what come out, we'll fix it later.

You just made that up.
Listen... this forum is very critical. They don't fall for arguments like that.

(I wonder which curriculum is required to be game designer)

Becoming insulting won't win you many friends either.
For me it means I will not invest more time in a response.

Goodbye.

 

[Ambroza]

"- Trader (slow, low agility, huge cargo, huge jump loaded, low jump empty, low firepower, high defense)"

What lol

 

[xondk]

Currently the game offer to players more than 30 different space ships.
Unfortunately, the one who designed it made it with plenty of massives mistakes (the T9 having less 30% cargo than cutter, explorer jumping less than anaconda, cutter expected to be a fighter, viper slower than cobra, python better trader on outpost than any trade ships, passengers ships terribly bad at travel mission until this update, etc.)

Even more, all theses ships were almost all designed with any vision. It's more about random rolls, and enjoy what come out, we'll fix it later.

To discuss.

I generally don't agree with your assessment of the ships as is.
That said you cannot really balance ships as you put it out, for example the entire weapon system needs to be revamped as well then.
You'd need to revamp the entire game to make it fit your system, you are in essence talking about an entirely different game.

That said I think the ships we have now have fine progression and flexibility, some of the things do not make sense, but you have to realise that there needs to be a 3D model for each of your variations?

And said variations would also mean that you had only one choice in what you want to do, I mean how would a small warship function? what would make you want to chose that?
Why would anyone chose that over say a bounty hunter? highly agile, fast and with high fire power? in a large version?

Just saying, it isn't as easy as this, There are several space arcade games that are out there that follow this kind of model and at least for me, it makes the ships rather lack luster, no history no reason, simply made to fill a game play role, rather then having something surrounding the lore, a reason for them to be build, in a game I would play a few times and then finish and move on, sure, this wouldn't be a problem, but a game that needs to last for a long time? it simply would be insanely hard to balance right and ultimately many games that follow this end up with very few types to avoid balancing issues.

So yeah..

 

[Deleted member 115407]

as all players get more money, and income rose quickly even for starting players as they can now get their endgame space ship within a few hours. This is slowly corrected, but we still have 50% of ship currently useless once we have enough money for better.

Lies!!!!!!

Just because you may not find value in smaller ships, OP, doesn't mean that nobody else does.

I've got a touch under a billion in assets, and will be flying around tonight, bounty hunting in my end-game Viper IV, so I can unlock Bill Turner so I can build my end-game Viper III.

 

[Mostly Awol]

OP the problem is you are thinking of making ships as if this were a game where ships need to make sense and not conflict with each other. In Elite the ships are designed as if they would fit in the real world. Just like our real world and cars. We have Honda, and Toyota cars they make very similar cars but different in little places. Then you got Ford and it's pickup trucks compared to Dodge's line of pickup trucks each add things the other doesn't. So far the only problem I see in Elite regarding ships is there needs to be a lot more manufacturers out there adding different varieties in all lines of ships, which Elite Lore does have, they just need to make it into the game which takes a lot of time.

 

[EdzUp]

Whilst I will be the first to wish ED had FFE's outfitting it hasn't so we have to make do with what we have. Yes I would love to have the old system there so I could make a passenger ship with a nice drive and some small weapons or a battleship where Kestrel airfighters dance on the Shields like moths to a flame.

However limited the current system is we all have access to it apart from Engineers were all in the same ship.

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

Wish I found this Endgame thing, has it something to do with Thargoids maybe?
Anyway's the ships were all designed by a symposium of the Engineers. They used all their skill and all the mosd to create the best possible outcome. They put all their love and skill into this massive task
This was told to me by a reliable insider source on Bishop Gateway, some time ago.


Cheers Cmdr's

 

[BL1P]

Kinda agree.
Multipurpose ships are currently better than Class specific ships at the class specific job.

The three Ranks for Elite: Exploration, combat, and Trade but the top ship in each class is outdone by the multipurpose ships.

Asp Explorer (class explorer) is out matched for jump range and utilities for long time exploration by the Anaconda (multipurpose).
Type 9 (class Freighter) is out matched for cargo by the multipurpose Cutter.
Corvette (class combat) is out matched for DPS by the multipurpose Anaconda.

I think the multipurpose should be good all rounders but not better than the TOP class specific ships at that classes job.

 

[Scarmax]

Ship design never really entered into the equation for me. Sure, I like some designs better than others from an aesthetics point of view, but the bottom line is whether or not the ship has the capabilities I need/want. I don't really care if the design does or does not "appear" to align with it's specifications. Regardless of that though, the designs are anything but random and I only wish I had the kind of obvious creativity and forethought that went into the ships in this game.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Currently the game offer to players more than 30 different space ships.
Unfortunately, the one who designed it made it with plenty of massives mistakes (the T9 having less 30% cargo than cutter, explorer jumping less than anaconda, cutter expected to be a fighter, viper slower than cobra, python better trader on outpost than any trade ships, passengers ships terribly bad at travel mission until this update, etc.)

You're mistaken. A properly outfitted and modded combat Viper is FAR faster than a combat Cobra. Also, it has superior acceleration and lateral/vertical thrusters, plus superior hardpoint placement. Heck, I can almost fly faster without boost than a cobra with boost, and my boost goes way over 600m/s. Maybe rather than throw insults at the devs you should read-up and learn how the mechanics work?

A python is lore-wise a trader btw, and a medium-sized one. So it being the best medium-sized trader in the game seems fair.

 

[Adept Geraden]

I think the ship designs as they are, are brilliant. For any role, there is no one perfect ship. It will always be a compromise.

 

[Hooplah]

While a seriously dedicated post with great effort discussing ships you make too many assumptions and are missing the point. The ships were meticulously designed to increase the capabilities that a player desires but to also challenge them with limitations at the next level of game play. They challenge the player with these new problems that they have not had to deal with before. As the player masters the difficulties they become more experienced and skilled in playing the game hopefully knowing what they are doing by the time they get to the top three ships if that is their goal. There are so many variables in the equation as in certain weapons work for one ship and not others, flying and combat skills are different for each ship, loadouts can be totally different simply by how one plays the game. Doing trading? Decide to do bounty hunting? It's a whole new ballgame. I laugh at those who say there is no depth in Elite Dangerous. One who can't see the forest for the trees comes to mind.

 

[krylite]

OP the problem is you are thinking of making ships as if this were a game where ships need to make sense and not conflict with each other. In Elite the ships are designed as if they would fit in the real world. Just like our real world and cars. We have Honda, and Toyota cars they make very similar cars but different in little places. Then you got Ford and it's pickup trucks compared to Dodge's line of pickup trucks each add things the other doesn't. So far the only problem I see in Elite regarding ships is there needs to be a lot more manufacturers out there adding different varieties in all lines of ships, which Elite Lore does have, they just need to make it into the game which takes a lot of time.

This is similar to my take of the ship design. While there is a point the limitations of certain ships in comparison to others can be glaring, I think there was plenty of thought into the design of the ships. For one, many of the ships' characteristics were based on their predecessors' lore in Frontier and FFE. I think ED did a good job with the lore being a major factor in the ship design. The ship manufacturers continue to compete with each other and certain ships are heavily influenced by their history or power their origins were affiliated with such as the imperial ships. In the FFE manual, it's fun to read "Bob" and "Jane" 's thoughts on the ships like it was a vehicle review show.
http://www.wischik.com/lu/senses/ffemanual.pdf#page=250&zoom=180,-65,823

imo, I think the best way to iron out the perceived weaknesses when comparing ED ships is for ED to eventually just implement more ships such as Lakon coming out with another ship to compete with the cutter in cargo shipping. With megaships coming in 2.3, maybe it's a sign FDev will come out with more fun ships in the future such as the panther clipper.
http://www.wischik.com/lu/senses/ffemanual.pdf#page=247&zoom=auto,-224,175

I think the ship designs as they are, are brilliant. For any role, there is no one perfect ship. It will always be a compromise.

me too. brilliant which helps set apart ED from other space games.

 

[Brieus]

Lies!!!!!!

Just because you may not find value in smaller ships, OP, doesn't mean that nobody else does.

I've got a touch under a billion in assets, and will be flying around tonight, bounty hunting in my end-game Viper IV, so I can unlock Bill Turner so I can build my end-game Viper III.

Yes, but you want it because it's a bigger challenge, right? That means you are deliberately handicapping yourself. Once you can afford them, big ships are just better than small ones. Besides carrying more stuff, they are faster or just as fast, and can have a higher jump range. If you could mod a Sidewinder to have 100ly jump range, you would see a lot more people using them.

 

[Spacecat]

Engineers, while grindy, does give you a lot more ship building options. Would be nice if we could also engineer things like cargo racks or fuel tanks.

 

[AsukaZ]

..., I think there was plenty of thought into the design of the ships.
...

I agree.

One odd thing though it looks to me like the outside design of some ships have changed scale, Huge glass(?) cockpits that wouldn't look out of place on a much a smaller vessel. Pays to be adaptable I suppose lol. And don't we have more now and to come than were originally promised ?

As for the internals I recall mention that all ships are accurately sized for the volume required of each of it's internal module slots so yeah, I think it's all good.

 

[Peuwi]

I generally don't agree with your assessment of the ships as is.
That said you cannot really balance ships as you put it out, for example the entire weapon system needs to be revamped as well then.
You'd need to revamp the entire game to make it fit your system, you are in essence talking about an entirely different game.

Nope, on contrary, I said that the current system allow many nice variations, and is quite balanced on itself. (ok, weapons damage is a problem of his own, but each weapon works - almost - the same when fitted on any ship)
Deciding that T9 should be a great freighter, thus needing this and that, doesnt have any impact or the other systems.

I've got a touch under a billion in assets, and will be flying around tonight, bounty hunting in my end-game Viper IV, so I can unlock Bill Turner so I can build my end-game Viper III.

Good, you are having some fun. We all usually do with some aspects.
But it doesnt make your end-game viper III usefull for anything compared to other ships. Whatever your viper is doing, an asp with the same outfitting can do the same, better.
What I'm saying is that this very ship, the viper, should have been design in order to be a tiny bit more efficient than any other ship for a given activity.
For the viper, it would be, say, bounty hunting... Currently, the FDL is something like .. 3 times more efficient than a viper for bounty hunting ?

For any role, there is no one perfect ship. It will always be a compromise.

If this was true, the no ship would be better than another for a given role.
That's easy to test, we can get who reached beagle point, and the ship used.
We shouldnt find any ship used more than 20%.
( I let you check by yourself : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/296037-The-65000-Ly-from-Sol-Club-ver-3-0/ )
By the way, designing a ship for a role is just a way to ensure that the ship is efficient for this role ! It wouldnt make all other ships unable to compete with them for this role. (so, 3 garanted exploration ships + ~7 quite nice ship still nicely efficient with some side bonus : here, you whould have compromises)

---------------------

Anyway, it's too late for changing anything... Maybe for the future ships ... Beluga was expected to be useless, he is. The T10 is expected to be as useless than T9, I hope it wont be.

But, to get it clearly :
I dont suggest that each ship should be limited to only 1 precise role, and each role limited to 1 precise ship, but :
- that no ship should be "lost". If no ship are wasted, more ship are available. If more ship are available, we have more variety, more choices, more interest
- that all ship are different : if 2 ships are similar, that's simply the same ship with an other graphical rendering. So, less variety, less choices, less interest

 

[Bortas]

I think most ships are in a pretty good position... the only thing I agree to is the criticizm of the cargo ships. It's really hard to like these ships, if they aren't even the best cargo haulers in their respective class.

They should indeed be able to carry considerably more cargo than thy currently can. Especially the T-9 should be the top cargo hauler in the game and be able to carry 800-1000 tons.