Why FSS Mode Must Go

[Jon474]

Thank you, Cmdr. An excellent reply. I recognise and concur with most, if not all, of your observations and comments!

At the risk of flogging a very, very dead horse...I'm old, be nice to me!

The spoiler for me is entirely contained within the, frankly ridiculous, mechanics of the Jiggle and Point mini-game. In RL, it is just not intuitive, not for me. I cannot find a work flow that makes its operation in any way a sensible course of action following a jump. I dread messages telling me how many planetary bodies there have been discovered. I have to switch modes and so can't easily explore from my cockpit. Yes, this is *my* problem, and others have found it just fine...but I cannot. Not yet. I think part of my feelings of "betrayal" are because I have watched the mess that is exploration develop since, in my case, Premium Beta days, but have stuck with it. This last iteration of "improvement" has been a real problem for me. No matter.

I, too, had issues with the ADS - primarily its infinite range. I have been told to shut up more than once on these forum threads for going on about it. The insta-reveal was problematic, it is true. I "got around" my problem with this mechanic by both recognising it and ignoring it (as per your CGI analogy) and being comforted by the fact that real effort was needed to then go up to and explore a planet or moon so discovered.

For me the ADS was never, and should never have been about telling me everything that was there. I wish the Honk had not been able to display any graphic or sound but instead, had just shown me that things were there, and in what arrangement or formation. I would then have been capable of flying around making further scans and revealing exactly the nature of, say, body 5A. (As an aside, I even found the idea that scanning a planet or moon from space would instantly tell me the materials composition to be found on the surface to be annoying. I would have preferred to have had to land and then reveal this via the "shooting at rocks" mini-game).

This new-fangled FSS satisfies nothing for me. The FSS is simply aggravating. Any half-decent 3303 scanning system should have been able to divulge the structure of a system and show me some sort of schematic. Remember, I don't want or need any detail at this stage as I am happy to fly up to it to find that information. The fact that Jiggle & Point can be done with my throttle set to 30km/s (why not to zero?) and reveals everything I might want to know for zero effort of flying, is the kick in the bits.

I think I may have started ranting...Nurse, my medicine.

TL;DR. To sum up, I know it's not going to go but I wish it had never arrived!

Fly happy, Cmdrs

Jon

 

[Jack Schitt]

The spoiler for me is entirely contained within the, frankly ridiculous, mechanics of the Jiggle and Point mini-game. In RL, it is just not intuitive, not for me. I cannot find a work flow that makes its operation in any way a sensible course of action following a jump.

It is clunky, there's no denying it. I often find myself frustrated that I can't quite nudge the cursor onto that last stubborn moon on the first go, or select that ELW signal on the spectrum scope without overshooting a couple of times. I have everything bound to HOTAS controls so I'm arguably bringing much of that on myself by not using a more appropriate controller, but I'm stubborn like that.

I wish the Honk had not been able to display any graphic or sound but instead, had just shown me that things were there, and in what arrangement or formation. I would then have been capable of flying around making further scans and revealing exactly the nature of, say, body 5A.

It did do something like that, by accident, for a while but FD nixed it. It's one of the things that's been suggested as a middle ground, along with displaying the initial spectrum on the ship's HUD or allowing FSS to be used at faster speeds. I wouldn't have an issue with any of those, although there are players who have expressed dissatisfaction at any sort of compromise so you can kind of understand FD's sticking with an all-or-nothing policy rather than appearing to "take sides".

On the other hand the FSS -- indeed any change to the basic exploration mechanic -- was always going to be divisive but to see it push so many long-time players away from the game is sad. It's not even as though it's a universal "final straw" situation either. Sure, there are many players disillusioned with other aspects of the game for whom the FSS has pushed them over the edge, but other players who had no major issues with the game at all have been so put off by the FSS that they're abandoning the whole thing. I have no idea which category you fit into, but it doesn't really matter. The fact that the latter exist at all should IMO encourage FD to consider some tweaks to the mechanic, but as far as I know they've not budged.

It's cold comfort, but I guess this is one of the advantages of ED being non-subscription. Players can leave it with the option of returning if circumstances change, or never coming back if they don't, without any sort of financial impact either way. I hope for your sake that FD eventually take a second look at some of what's been suggested in the various forums. It's not all "Bring back the ADS or I'm quitting!" (although the OP here is proof that there has been plenty of that). There are some useful signals in the noise, if only they can get the cursor to stop at the right place.

 

[Ziljan]

To those saying that the success and popularity of DW2 can somehow be separated from the new mechanics, I have to disagree. From the beginning, DW2 was created with the express intent of celebrating the anticipated new mechanics (and even contingent upon whether they materialised). Also, before the announcement of the FSS, the exploration forum was getting less posts than the CQC/Power Play forums (two notoriously walking dead facets of the game). Yet today the Exploration forum is vibrant and very much alive with mostly positive posts.

On a personal level, after enduring the coma/early-onset-dementia inducing ADS on DW1 all the way to Beagle Point (which ended in suicide btw), there is no way I would be on DW2 if not for the FSS. I finally have something to do now and (apart from the stuttering when speed scanning, and panning hiccups when passing signals, and inability to spin the camera) I am really enjoying the FSS interface. Spent the first 5kLYs of DW2 scanning snowballs in the dwarf plane and loved it.

 

[marx]

I have everything bound to HOTAS controls so I'm arguably bringing much of that on myself by not using a more appropriate controller, but I'm stubborn like that.

Note that Elite was designed for HOTAS first, and other controllers after it. So, the throttle-and-stick would be the most appropriate controller for the game. As far as I know, officially this stance hasn't changed, although the FSS looks as if it were designed for a gamepad instead, with sticks being an afterthought.

 

[Ziljan]

I suspect a lot of antagonism for the FSS is precipitated by a clunky input setup. Unfortunately, not all inputs are created equal. I use a Hotas and it took me about 30 min to find fast and accurate inputs for the FSS tuner. The finger stick on the Thrustmaster FCS throttle was ideal for me. Others have written extensive guides on the best inputs for each Hotas or controller type. For ultra fine (but slow) adjustments, I will sometimes switch to the secondary input on the mouse wheel.

 

[Jon474]

Thanks Cmdr Ziljan. I think you are correct. I simply cannot find a set-up that fits in to my work flow. That and the silliness of having both a line and a target mechanism. I could have lived with the line...but the constant zooming in and out on a target infuriates me. It is not a natural action.

Conversely, the FSS stopped me from embarking on DW2...I just could not envisage the Jiggle & Point game for 131,000 LY.

Anyway. I'll stop banging on...I am grateful for the polite replies.

Fly happy, Cmdrs

Jon

[EDIT: This thread over recent days, and my deep down desire not to have to give up on Elite, has encouraged me to face into this FSS thing. Cmdr Ziljan's comment has made me look again at how others have set up their FSS controls. I will see if I cannot find a work flow pattern that works. Thank you to all for your thoughts.]

 

[marx]

To those saying that the success and popularity of DW2 can somehow be separated from the new mechanics, I have to disagree.

I take it you meant me here, even though I didn't say that. To quote: "Looking at the EDSM (new systems uploaded) and Steam data, it wasn't the Chapter Four release that got the most players out exploring, but DW2 instead. [...] As I said, the 3.3 patch brought it up to the previous levels, then DW2 boosted it considerably beyond that." If it were Chapter Four's release(!) only, then that would have seen the largest spike, no? Followed by a decline until the DWE2 launch, then another, but smaller spike.
Now, what we had, some approximate numbers:
- 27-37k systems added daily just before 3.3
- 50-60k systems added daily after 3.3, returning to around previous peak levels
- 80-97k systems added daily after DW2, a month later

However you interpret things, the fact remains that DW2's launch increased systems logged on EDSM by the same amount as Chapter Four's release did, and Chapter Four returned activity levels to that of the Return and Beyond Chapter One.
I don't know if DW2 would have launched if mechanics were different (they didn't actually mention such in the early announcement, it was all about the new content), but if you take all the various roles and activities, most of them don't actually depend on the new mechanics. Exploration was there before (and based on the spikes, I don't think it's just the FSS only), only the Codex is new - and so far, it has been quite the disappointment. Of course, there's plenty of time for Frontier to add new content, as the expedition will reach and complete the second CG in several weeks from now on.

Also, do you think that DW2 would have attracted even a tenth of the sign-ups it did if it didn't have the Distant Worlds brand? I don't think it would have, nor would any other expedition gotten so much support from Frontier. I'd say that a large part of the initial(!) success of DW2 is most likely due to the Distant Worlds brand. Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind: after all, the brand was built by the same people who organised this one. Then the later success will be due to how the expedition fared.

 

[MattG]

I am gradually becoming quieter about this because (a) I’ve stopped playing Elite; in time, I will stop reading the forum posts; (b) it’s not going to change back; and (c) few people seem to agree.

This last point is important because it shows my view is “wrong” or at best at odds with the voice of the mob. So, I would be silly to bang on about it for too much longer. I don’t agree it’s better, and I never will, but in the face of so many others who do think it is better I would be silly to keep on banging the drum for the ADS and the previous mechanic.

You are correct. Few people do agree with you. You are in a minority. At least some of those who share a similar viewpoint are quiet on the subject precisely because they're bored of being told they're "wrong".

For me, I don't hate the FSS. I don't like it either, but I get why others do. I particularly understand the appeal of it to "greener" explorers. It has, though, utterly destroyed the way I explored and my list of "unicorns" (extreme rarities I was hunting) has mostly been consigned to the bin - the time investment required to find them now is ludicrous. You are also correct that it's not going to change back either. So you're left with the choice of adapt or quit. You clearly enjoyed the game before, so it's at least worth the attempt to adapt. I know you said you tried, but you can't go into it with the mindset and workflow you had previously. You need to go in fresh and positive, and work out a new workflow that is both compatible with the new mechanics and compatible with your enjoyment. That process itself may not be enjoyable, but you need to give it (a lot of) time. Key to it is finding a controller setup that is half-way workable. Once the controls are sorted, you need to re-think your own workflow and find a way to derive enjoyment out of what you're forced to work with.

During the beta, and since 3.3 has dropped I've spent hours on this. I very nearly removed my DW2 entry. Instead, I've decided to use DW2 as a testing ground to see if I can stomach the FSS long-term. I've come up with a new list of unicorns to hunt that is compatible with the FSS (though truth be told, some of them are more like exotic ponies than unicorns now...). I guess I'll either enjoy (and finish) DW2, or I'll quit - but at least no-one can say I didn't give it a good go.

 

[Rat Catcher]

[EDIT: This thread over recent days, and my deep down desire not to have to give up on Elite, has encouraged me to face into this FSS thing. Cmdr Ziljan's comment has made me look again at how others have set up their FSS controls. I will see if I cannot find a work flow pattern that works. Thank you to all for your thoughts.]

Jon, I haven't read all of the posts here, but if you have an X52 Pro I'll happily 'share' my bindings setup for you to have a peek at and maybe get some 'new' ideas (even if just how silly others can set things up )

I will say "well done" for not giving up and being (even reluctantly) willing to 'find a way'

 

[Jon474]

Jon, I haven't read all of the posts here, but if you have an X52 Pro I'll happily 'share' my bindings setup for you to have a peek at and maybe get some 'new' ideas (even if just how silly others can set things up )

Cmdr, I will definitely take you up on that offer. Yes, please.

I use a Thrustmaster HOTAS thing at the minute but I will be able to get some ideas from how others have set up their bindings. If necessary, I can upgrade the HOTAS. I’m open to any and all ideas at this time.

Thank you, again.

Thank you, also, to MattG for your comments.

Kind regards

Jon

 

[Scarlet Trooper]

Agreed with OP.

What the 'pro' supporters dont seem to understand is that we aren't asking for the whole mech to be changed, just the initial 'honk' in a system to show whats in said system, thats it, keep the rest 'as is'

Signed up for DW2 but not sure will continue as this new system is just killing it for me, every single jump you have to go through the whole mini game to discover what a system has in it, not for me. It's just killing the game off for me and others.

 

[Darkfyre99]

[EDIT: This thread over recent days, and my deep down desire not to have to give up on Elite, has encouraged me to face into this FSS thing. Cmdr Ziljan's comment has made me look again at how others have set up their FSS controls. I will see if I cannot find a work flow pattern that works. Thank you to all for your thoughts.]

Once you find a control schema that works for you, feel free to ask for advice on how to minimize the amount of "jiggle and pointing" you need to do. I've been doing a lot of experimenting with the FSS with the goal of maximizing my chances of finding Interesting Things(tm) while minimizing the amount of "fiddling" I have to do.

While not everything can be discovered with the strategies I use, I do feel like I can get a fairly good mental map of a system's architecture using one pan and tune... perhaps two if a system is more complex.

 

[Jon474]

@Scarlet Trooper Yep. For me, I’d be happy with just being able to see “black circles” after the initial Honk. Just something that showed me that things are there and how they are arranged. I’ll fly up to them, or even do the Jiggle and Point thing, to determine what they are myself.

@Darkfyre99 Thank you. Yes, it is definitely a system’s “architecture” that I want to get a feel for. With that fixed on my head I can then explore.

Jon

 

[Klepto]

@Jon474 "Black circles" on the system map would be a good compromise between the old and the new exploration systems... perhaps)

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I take it you meant me here, even though I didn't say that. To quote: "Looking at the EDSM (new systems uploaded) and Steam data, it wasn't the Chapter Four release that got the most players out exploring, but DW2 instead. [...] As I said, the 3.3 patch brought it up to the previous levels, then DW2 boosted it considerably beyond that." If it were Chapter Four's release(!) only, then that would have seen the largest spike, no? Followed by a decline until the DWE2 launch, then another, but smaller spike.
Now, what we had, some approximate numbers:
- 27-37k systems added daily just before 3.3
- 50-60k systems added daily after 3.3, returning to around previous peak levels
- 80-97k systems added daily after DW2, a month later

However you interpret things, the fact remains that DW2's launch increased systems logged on EDSM by the same amount as Chapter Four's release did, and Chapter Four returned activity levels to that of the Return and Beyond Chapter One.
I don't know if DW2 would have launched if mechanics were different (they didn't actually mention such in the early announcement, it was all about the new content), but if you take all the various roles and activities, most of them don't actually depend on the new mechanics. Exploration was there before (and based on the spikes, I don't think it's just the FSS only), only the Codex is new - and so far, it has been quite the disappointment. Of course, there's plenty of time for Frontier to add new content, as the expedition will reach and complete the second CG in several weeks from now on.

Also, do you think that DW2 would have attracted even a tenth of the sign-ups it did if it didn't have the Distant Worlds brand? I don't think it would have, nor would any other expedition gotten so much support from Frontier. I'd say that a large part of the initial(!) success of DW2 is most likely due to the Distant Worlds brand. Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind: after all, the brand was built by the same people who organised this one. Then the later success will be due to how the expedition fared.

EDSM is not a very accurate report on the amount of people exploring. I am not signed up to EDSM and neither is my brother. We both explore.

 

[foxoplasma]

I don't think FSS has to GO. It is a good idea that just isn't perfect, but when pretty much the entirety of exploration hinges on this one screen, it's gotta be perfect. I don't think it is unsalvageable, but the signals bar is just not very good.

I proposed a nice amendment to the FSS that would make it a lot more useful for gathering data, which would be redoing the signals bar to not simply display the body's type, which is useless for everyone not exploring for credits, but also a lot more information that you can extract with thought, like mass, size, rings, number, and stuff like that. If you are interested, check out my thread i wrote here, and it'd be great to discuss it so the developers are more likely to see:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/472435-Improving-the-FSS-More-nuanced-signals!

I have to say though, the total silence of the developers on the major problems with the FSS is really worrying me. I've even been trying to poke them about this and i still only get silence...

 

[Rat Catcher]

Cmdr, I will definitely take you up on that offer. Yes, please.

I use a Thrustmaster HOTAS thing at the minute but I will be able to get some ideas from how others have set up their bindings. If necessary, I can upgrade the HOTAS. I’m open to any and all ideas at this time.

Thank you, again.

Thank you, also, to MattG for your comments.

Kind regards

Jon

Do you have the Hotas X? I also have one and will get the bindings sorted (using multi shifts - sorry) and get you a link for both in the thread later. Always happy to assist.

Edit: X52 pro binds (link to EDRegCard site, will show bindings and allow a download): https://edrefcard.info/binds/eowysf

 

[LifesAJourney]

I use Hotas but I failed to create a good key bindings on it. After many tries I ended up with simple mouse configuration:

left button - signal tuning left
right button - signal tuning right
middle button - zoom in
'sniper' button - zoom out
scroll - step-by-step zoom in/out (I barely use it, though)

 

[Jon474]

Do you have the Hotas X? I also have one and will get the bindings sorted (using multi shifts - sorry) and get you a link for both in the thread later. Always happy to assist.

Edit: X52 pro binds (link to EDRegCard site, will show bindings and allow a download): https://edrefcard.info/binds/eowysf

Thank you, Cmdr. Much appreciated. At work now but will look at this tonight.

Thanks, again.

Kind regards

Jon

 

[marx]

First, I think we can agree that the thread title isn't exactly the best. Like many have said, most people who dislike the new system don't say that it has to go entirely. Which would be unrealistic anyway. It's far from perfect though, and needs more work.

During the beta, and since 3.3 has dropped I've spent hours on this. I very nearly removed my DW2 entry. Instead, I've decided to use DW2 as a testing ground to see if I can stomach the FSS long-term. I've come up with a new list of unicorns to hunt that is compatible with the FSS (though truth be told, some of them are more like exotic ponies than unicorns now...). I guess I'll either enjoy (and finish) DW2, or I'll quit - but at least no-one can say I didn't give it a good go.

I'm curious: what's your new list of exotic unicorns ponies then? I wonder if there's anything that I might be interested on there too.
I'm still revisiting some old finds, and have been looking into the Codex and regional differences on the way, but I'm fast running out of things which I'd find worth looking for with the FSS. Still waiting for Frontier to fix all the bugs plaguing the other areas of the game though. I mean, good grief.

EDSM is not a very accurate report on the amount of people exploring. I am not signed up to EDSM and neither is my brother. We both explore.

There are 6,555 explorers signed up for DW2 on EDSM, and the total roster is 13,021. Frankly, that's a very good ratio, especially considering that probably most of those people are new to exploration or beginners. So on the contrary, I'd say it's good enough. And if we're on the field of anecdotes (which aren't evidence), most explorers I know do share their data with others.
It also explains better why there hasn't been a big increase on Steam player statistics at DW2's launch. Sorry, I forgot to mention that, since I was focused on exploration.