Why I currently think combat and Ramming is rubbish

Ben, it was used a lot in WWII by the Soviets and other countries, including the RAF. It was often a tactic of last resort, but not quite in the manner you describe, as the last resort was due to being out of ammo and the enemy still heading to their target, so they'd ram it, slamming it with their belly or using their landing gear to destroy a wing or the rudder. Valid and useful, officially 'discouraged' in 1994 by the Soviets but never stopped.

Banana, I purposely avoid any comments on SCBs or things related to them. I've used them to see what the hubbub was about, realized the issue and won't touch them again. They are, in my opinion, a developer created exploit, no better than using a cheatcode left in the game by mistake as far as I'm concerned. Using them to allow more ramming is just another exploit as far as I'm concerned, but since FD created them and hasn't seen fit to address the multitude of concerns raised about them, I see little point in beating that poor pile of leather and bones that used to be a dead horse, I simply steer clear of it.

As for modern naval combat that involved ramming, someone listed those in one of these threads already, I see no point in redoing that. Is it a PRIME tactic, no, that changed over the last 70 or so years when the creation of much more powerful cannon and artillery for naval combat, and boarding actions are now done via small craft and a small insertion force that rely on specialized training and shock & awe tactics. It is still however a valid tactic and still taught as such. Asking for recent examples of ramming by a modern navy is much like recent examples of someone running through the enemy with a sword to try and claim that using anything but a gun is pointless in the military today. Funny, my own training including hand to hand and bladed weapon usage and I know those are still being taught to new recruits today.
 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Olympias.1.JPG

The Greeks are calling your bluff. Ramming used to be a favored tactic in their once world-dominating Navy. :D
Again, no shields. I can type this all day.

@ Kristov:
If concerns aren't raised about things that are exploitable then they will never get fixed.
Beating a dead horse is one thing but this issue has been discussed for a long time. Until they make a decision or change things and set it in stone then this is a viable topic of discussion. there is no magic wand to make things disappear, they take time.

Since there were no changes in 1.4 doesn't mean that problem should just be ignored. The reasons for discussing how these things make the game less fun for everyone, except those who choose to exploit them, currently is.

This is why it's being raised again because it's a nonsense that puts players off playing the game and especially in Open.
If you want to make Open more viable to more players then things such as this should be addressed or just change the name to "Rammers"...which would be bad.
They're probably trying to fix it but while they are there is no harm in bringing attention to it, lest it be forgot.
There should be more to this game than just ramming in PvP because that's how it currently is being played.
 
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I've said this before elsewhere, but some further elaboration, if I may be self-indulgent for a mo. Ramming is used by many in Elite due to the poor arcade-style combat mechanics. It's an exploit of those game mechanics. There is an obviously good reason it hasn't been commonly used in real naval combat in modern times. It's too dangerous for the rammer as well as the rammee. And that's in a breathable atmosphere. Now, what about in a science fictional setting? Think about it...you're in space!. It's hard vacuum...

Oh...and the examples from ancient times are absurd arguments.
 
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Again, no shields. I can type this all day.

More importantly, no guns. It's not like the Greeks could sink an enemy ship with their spears. :p

In my opinion since we do have guns, said guns should be our preferred method of combat. Ramming would be better off relegated to either swatting near-crippled unshielded ships with your shielded ship, breaching hulls for boarding, or a particularly unsporting form of suicide.
 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Olympias.1.JPG

The Greeks are calling your bluff. Ramming used to be a favored tactic in their once world-dominating Navy. :D

Gives me an idea... RAMS as hardpoint upgrades :p

Not sure how that'd work on Imperial clippers mind... be more like jousting.

What I'd propose (complete with handwavium)......

I was hoping to get some feedback anyone think this would be a good compromise?
 
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Ben, it was used a lot in WWII by the Soviets and other countries, including the RAF. It was often a tactic of last resort, but not quite in the manner you describe, as the last resort was due to being out of ammo and the enemy still heading to their target, so they'd ram it, slamming it with their belly or using their landing gear to destroy a wing or the rudder. Valid and useful, officially 'discouraged' in 1994 by the Soviets but never stopped.

Banana, I purposely avoid any comments on SCBs or things related to them. I've used them to see what the hubbub was about, realized the issue and won't touch them again. They are, in my opinion, a developer created exploit, no better than using a cheatcode left in the game by mistake as far as I'm concerned. Using them to allow more ramming is just another exploit as far as I'm concerned, but since FD created them and hasn't seen fit to address the multitude of concerns raised about them, I see little point in beating that poor pile of leather and bones that used to be a dead horse, I simply steer clear of it.

As for modern naval combat that involved ramming, someone listed those in one of these threads already, I see no point in redoing that. Is it a PRIME tactic, no, that changed over the last 70 or so years when the creation of much more powerful cannon and artillery for naval combat, and boarding actions are now done via small craft and a small insertion force that rely on specialized training and shock & awe tactics. It is still however a valid tactic and still taught as such. Asking for recent examples of ramming by a modern navy is much like recent examples of someone running through the enemy with a sword to try and claim that using anything but a gun is pointless in the military today. Funny, my own training including hand to hand and bladed weapon usage and I know those are still being taught to new recruits today.

1949. And practiced before and after by the not very clever who had yet worked out how to use projectile weapons.
 
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Again, no shields. I can type this all day.
And we can ignore you all day. If shields were a relevant argument someone would bother a riposte, but they aren't. They are, in fact, the very antithesis of your argument. If I have shields, which are in theory and infinitely regenerating resource, why wouldn't I use them to batter a shieldless opponent to deplete his finite resources of hull integrity?


I've said this before elsewhere, but some further elaboration, if I may be self-indulgent for a mo. Ramming is used by many in Elite due to the poor arcade-style combat mechanics. It's an exploit of those game mechanics. There is an obviously good reason it hasn't been commonly used in real naval combat in modern times. It's too dangerous for the rammer as well as the rammee. And that's in a breathable atmosphere. Now, what about in a science fictional setting? Think about it...you're in space!. It's hard vacuum...

Oh...and the examples from ancient times are absurd arguments.

Lol, now ramming is an exploit? This just keeps getting better.

The obviously good reason it hasn't been done in modern Naval combat is because the fights happen with several miles of distance between the combatants. Ask any Navy commander if he feels comfortable being within sight of the naked eye of his enemy.

These analogies are hilarious. Of course ramming is an arcadey, gimmicky tactic. We get within spitting distance of each other and hurl nearly useless weapons at each other for minutes at a time because that's what is fun.. Real warfare that would be occuring a thousand years from now, in which FTL antimatter pellets are automatically fired at a target from thousands of kilometers away if there is even a fight to be had because everything is pre-determined by electronic warfare before ships are ever launched is boring as dog dung.

Elite: Dangerous' combat is fun. Ramming is a fun part of Elite: Dangerous' combat. Accept it and grow.
 
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I'll take our ability to ram and collide any day over rubber space ships. Don't even go there. Bouncy ships are stupid, and totally unrealistic. In addition defy the laws of physics.
 
More importantly, no guns. It's not like the Greeks could sink an enemy ship with their spears. :p

In my opinion since we do have guns, said guns should be our preferred method of combat. Ramming would be better off relegated to either swatting near-crippled unshielded ships with your shielded ship, breaching hulls for boarding, or a particularly unsporting form of suicide.

Well, they did use fire as a means to sink other vessels...so weapons.
It's just the damage balance that probably irks me the most. That in itself would be the easiest way to make it a less viable means of combat.

@ Windscreen Smudge:
Thanks for the reply, your ignoring skills are exemplary.

We aren't arguing the existence of shields, just how they can be used in a way that it makes ramming a more viable choice of action over actually firing weapons. It's like players who use such things have no patience to fight and just want the easy win...so they ram.
 
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I've said this before elsewhere, but some further elaboration, if I may be self-indulgent for a mo. Ramming is used by many in Elite due to the poor arcade-style combat mechanics. It's an exploit of those game mechanics. There is an obviously good reason it hasn't been commonly used in real naval combat in modern times. It's too dangerous for the rammer as well as the rammee. And that's in a breathable atmosphere. Now, what about in a science fictional setting? Think about it...you're in space!. It's hard vacuum...

Oh...and the examples from ancient times are absurd arguments.

Actually, for a vessel designed to ram, like the Greek Trireme pictured above, it's not so dangerous. We still build ships for that specific purpose, they are known as ice breakers, reinforced bow and forward sections of the hull. Today's more modern military naval vessels are typically not meant to get within visual range of the enemy, so they don't build them be able to ram or to be able to handle being rammed. Like I said, last 70 years or so, it's not what naval forces tend to do, modern weapons have made it obsolete in most situations, you don't SEE your enemy, you blow them up from well outside of visual range or from the air. And what is an anti-ship missile really? It's a small ramming weapon packed with explosives, torpedos are the same thing, only designed to operate in a different medium. Technically, modern naval craft do still employ ramming, they simply do it by remote now ;)

Space ships, same thing, if it's designed for ramming, the actual risk is minimal to the ramming vessel, extra armor, reinforced structural components. There's plenty of examples of such ship designs in sci-fi literature. Star Trek novels employ the design many times including Federation, Klingon and Romulan ships, not just small powers or groups, even the big boys employ them because it works and it works really well. Space combat at long ranges is a thing we all assume will be, but anyone with a practical knowledge of physics knows better. Energy weapons aren't great at long ranges, space or atmosphere, energy drop over distance is a mother after all. Kinetic projectiles are much more viable, but you run into not being able to HIT anything at long ranges, space is, to quote a wise man, really really big, and firing a slug at something 100k km away is pointless unless that target is totally stationary. So space combat will take place at much closer ranges than people realize, only missiles will be able to hit a target at long ranges, and they are far too easy to render useless, ESPECIALLY at long ranges.

Space combat will be a close range thing, and due to that, ramming will be a viable and used tactic, physics makes this a reality, no matter how unpoetic, unheroic and ungentlemanly it may sound.
 
I'll take our ability to ram and collide any day over rubber space ships. Don't even go there. Bouncy ships are stupid, and totally unrealistic. In addition defy the laws of physics.

Bouncy ships are the primary weapon of griefers in Eve Online. :D

Bring'em on. Let's see how great of an idea it is when people are using cheap ships to lock T9's in a dock until they're nuked by the station.
 
These analogies are hilarious. Of course ramming is an arcadey, gimmicky tactic. We get within spitting distance of each other and hurl nearly useless weapons at each other for minutes at a time because that's what is fun. Elite: Dangerous' combat is fun. Ramming is a fun part of Elite: Dangerous' combat. Accept it and grow.

Not fun for everyone or these threads wouldn't keep popping up continually. But maybe for you...:rolleyes:
 
Not fun for everyone or these threads wouldn't keep popping up continually. But maybe for you...:rolleyes:

I've been rammed exactly 0 times in combat when I could see the rammer, they aren't hard to avoid if you see them. Now, if are in combat and you lose track of your enemy, does it matter if they ram you or shove bullets up your exhaust? Either way, YOU failed the number 1 rule of dogfighting, you didn't keep your eye on the bad guy, and that usually means you've lost already.
 
Not fun for everyone or these threads wouldn't keep popping up continually. But maybe for you...:rolleyes:

This is the same as saying "Plasma cannons are OP because I can't win fights against people using them, please nerf."

No remorse here. I don't come on the forums and cry every time I have to run from an SCB loaded Python.
 
Once again shield potions contribute in no small way in bringing ED down to its most base (cf. pants) form.

Round of applause for SCBs!
 
Someone isn't a very good student of air combat, the Soviets employed taran, 'battering ram', starting in WWI and continued it through WWII were it was used quite a bit and even after WWII it was still a viable tactic. Jet aircraft aren't considered suitable for the taran typically, too fragile, although some ARE well armored enough to pull the taran off, especially the older jets of the Soviets(they loved the tactic, what can I say).

As for space vessels and ramming, well, my Clipper is suitably armored and shielded that it can handle a few ramming attacks against targets of lesser tonnage. My Courier was well suited to ramming smaller craft as well, and thanks to a HAL9000 moment with my docking computer, I know exactly how many ramming hits it takes to reduce it to rubble(A3 shields, 3 shield boosters, military reinforced hull = 2 to take down shields and leave hull at 75%, 3 drops hull to 30%, 4th is destruction). I've had more than a few Sideys, Vipers and other smaller vessels become scrap when they hit my Clipper during docking(coming in or going out) while I was under 100ms, 1 hit for the smallest vessels(sidey/eagle) and 2 for the larger(viper/adder), and that was THEM hitting me mind you, and none of those events took my shields out, although the 2 hit rams always caused some hull damage(typically 10-15%).

I've been taken out by Anacondas ramming my Clipper a few times, and I've taken a few of them out by ramming as well, but it's ALWAYS a costly move, ramming is not without consequences against ships of similar or higher tonnage with shields as you will take hull damage, and without shields it can be suicide even if you do destroy the ship you rammed/got rammed by.

People don't like it because they think it's cheap, it's not something anyone would actually do, whatever, insert YOUR reason here. And that validates absolutely nothing, those are the opinions of people without any combat training or experience. Modern naval vessels still employ ramming, even the British Navy, and they have since mankind first started using the waterways to travel. Space vessels with armored hulls and reinforced interior structures have no reason to not employ ramming, sheer brute kinetic force is deadly. In Elite Dangerous, getting rammed is GENERALLY easy to avoid, provided you can see your opponent coming at you. If you can't see them, you can't avoid them purposely, which is rather the point.

Ramming is used in most sci-fi novels, movies and series, because it's a valid and tactically sound option in space combat, even if your vessel isn't built specifically for it.

Very well said, + Rep to you!
 
Space combat at long ranges is a thing we all assume will be, but anyone with a practical knowledge of physics knows better. Energy weapons aren't great at long ranges, space or atmosphere, energy drop over distance is a mother after all.

Lasers with the power we are talking about would have little attenuation...heck...we bounce them off the moon. What practical experience do ​you have with them?
 
[video=youtube;9-58gUeDRUE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-58gUeDRUE[/video]

Eve online players use bouncy ships to destroy tens of billions of isk in cargo every day. By all means bring that mechanic to Elite: Dangerous. :D
 
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