Why I don't play Elite, but also - why I hope to in the future!

[Kicks]

Greetings Commanders o7!

There was a thread on here, not so long ago. It was quite controversial and got locked - probably for the better. I made a comment in that thread, making some comparisons between World Of Warcraft and ED and I wanted to expand on this in it's own post. I say this because, after I made that comment I decided to re-sub to WoW and see what had happened in my absence, and what I had to do to get to the max level again.

I'll preface with with a disclaimer - I understand that there is a massive difference between the team-sizes, the genre, and what the ultimate experience is supposed to be. It might seem shocking that I am comparing the two, and I'm not even going to go down the comparison of "MMO vs MMO", as it's not justified and both games scratch different itches.

The Elite galaxy is vast. It is impossible to put meaningful content in every nook and cranny. WoW doesn't have this drawback, it's all handcrafted and there's nothing holding anybody back from putting a secret here, or an activity there. WoW is one of the biggest grinds there are, if you're after certain reputation - or want a certain mount, or you're after a certain drop from a dungeon. The thing is, the grind can be disguised with the sheer plethora of other things you can be doing.

You can, in a heart-beat, invite friends to participate in an activity, or challenge you're trying to overcome - seamlessly. I can talk to guild-members whilst I fish, whilst queuing for challenges I need to complete.


I digress.


Why am I making this comparison?

Because Elite is open-world, but it seems that at every juncture - we're punished. I know Frontier cannot populate the galaxy with fun activities, it would be an inordinate amount of resources to do so. But even within the bubble, the space stations are stagnant, and the missions lacklustre. There's no moment-to-moment gameplay.

Unlike Blizzard, FD have a far harder task on their hands... as Blizz can hand-craft their universe, FD needs to make their procedural generated one, fun and interesting. There seems to be more effort involved than explaining away teleprescence rather than just saying "It's a way for you to play together". WoW is very lore-focused also, but they don't try and explain away queuing for dungeons.

I want Elite to fill these holes and become the Space-game everyone turns to for space-fun with their friends.

 

[Alec Turner]

I'm not sure what, if anything' you're suggesting FD should do? As you rightly point out their universe is vast and procedurally generated so they can't hand-place fun and interesting things to do. Not entirely sure where that leaves us?

P.S. I love(d) WoW too.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Greetings Commanders o7!

There was a thread on here, not so long ago. It was quite controversial and got locked - probably for the better. I made a comment in that thread, making some comparisons between World Of Warcraft and ED and I wanted to expand on this in it's own post. I say this because, after I made that comment I decided to re-sub to WoW and see what had happened in my absence, and what I had to do to get to the max level again.

I'll preface with with a disclaimer - I understand that there is a massive difference between the team-sizes, the genre, and what the ultimate experience is supposed to be. It might seem shocking that I am comparing the two, and I'm not even going to go down the comparison of "MMO vs MMO", as it's not justified and both games scratch different itches.

The Elite galaxy is vast. It is impossible to put meaningful content in every nook and cranny. WoW doesn't have this drawback, it's all handcrafted and there's nothing holding anybody back from putting a secret here, or an activity there. WoW is one of the biggest grinds there are, if you're after certain reputation - or want a certain mount, or you're after a certain drop from a dungeon. The thing is, the grind can be disguised with the sheer plethora of other things you can be doing.

You can, in a heart-beat, invite friends to participate in an activity, or challenge you're trying to overcome - seamlessly. I can talk to guild-members whilst I fish, whilst queuing for challenges I need to complete.


I digress.


Why am I making this comparison?

Because Elite is open-world, but it seems that at every juncture - we're punished. I know Frontier cannot populate the galaxy with fun activities, it would be an inordinate amount of resources to do so. But even within the bubble, the space stations are stagnant, and the missions lacklustre. There's no moment-to-moment gameplay.

Unlike Blizzard, FD have a far harder task on their hands... as Blizz can hand-craft their universe, FD needs to make their procedural generated one, fun and interesting. There seems to be more effort involved than explaining away teleprescence rather than just saying "It's a way for you to play together". WoW is very lore-focused also, but they don't try and explain away queuing for dungeons.

I want Elite to fill these holes and become the Space-game everyone turns to for space-fun with their friends.

Exactly how do you feel punished? Having challenge, having something taken away because you made a mistake is not punishment as something evil. It is how this game...is.

Is this another 'make credits and progress easier to come by' thread? Because we had plenty of those.

As for fun - it is about moment to moment gameplay. It is where FD will put most efforts. Currently algorithms sometimes are just too visible. But more work added - like mega ship gameplay - and it will be more fun. If that's still fun you are looking for.

 

[Kicks]

Exactly how do you feel punished? Having challenge, having something taken away because you made a mistake is not punishment as something evil. It is how this game...is.

Is this another 'make credits and progress easier to come by' thread? Because we had plenty of those.

Oh no, definitely not! Sorry if it came across that way.

I love flying my space-ship. I love docking, and undocking. I love outposts, I love the views, I love all the *mechanics* of the game. There's just (for me! take this as personal opinion ).. nothing in-depth to do - and I understand that, in a large, predominantly procedurally-generated universe, it's difficult for FD to create game-play that keeps engaging at every front rather than rely on RNG. Take POIs on planets for example. Your ship will give you an idea there's "something" there, but you don't know what - or where, immediately... In space, we see icons for ships, and know where they are.. on planets, POIs are handled differently... it all seems disjointed.

 

[Theodrid]

With a play area as vast as the one we have in Elite D the answer isn't to cram stuff into it like Blizzard have done with WoW but to make the finding of the stuff that is there more intuitive and interesting, be that in space or planetside. More engaging and involved scanners and sensors would be a good step in the right direction in my opinion, actually involving the pilot in analysing information while in transit to POI's and the like. If Frontier can find a way to engage the pilot in the discovery process more, make it interesting rather than just an exercise in 1) YouTube, 2) Point and go it would make not only discoveries but also travel more interesting and engaging.

 

[Kicks]

I'm not sure what, if anything' you're suggesting FD should do? As you rightly point out their universe is vast and procedurally generated so they can't hand-place fun and interesting things to do. Not entirely sure where that leaves us?

P.S. I love(d) WoW too.

I think they just need to (somehow) implement more "moment-to-moment" stuff that is not RNG-reliant, that people can engage it at anytime... team-up, do stuff together, have stuff scale based on how many are participating. Rather than half it with things like "Wing Missions" and "other missions", have it scale. Introduce ludicruous tasks that can be undertaken by a committed team... you could do this over many different jobs... 25,000 tonnes of gold. Let us work it as a team. Just scratching the hull here, and with a bit more thought - and perhaps another glass of wine - I can think of more?

With a play area as vast as the one we have in Elite D the answer isn't to cram stuff into it like Blizzard have done with WoW but to make the finding of the stuff that is there more intuitive and interesting, be that in space or planetside. More engaging and involved scanners and sensors would be a good step in the right direction in my opinion, actually involving the pilot in analysing information while in transit to POI's and the like. If Frontier can find a way to engage the pilot in the discovery process more, make it interesting rather than just an exercise in 1) YouTube, 2) Point and go it would make not only discoveries but also travel more interesting and engaging.

See, this is exactly what I was trying to convey - so thank you for doing it better than I did.

You're right, it's an impossible job to cram stuff in to the vastness of the galaxy that is ED - but I think you hit the nail on the head, FAR better than I did - in the fact that there could be randomly generated stuff out there, and with *interesting* devices and scanners... could become compelling gameplay - especially when with friends.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Oh no, definitely not! Sorry if it came across that way.

I love flying my space-ship. I love docking, and undocking. I love outposts, I love the views, I love all the *mechanics* of the game. There's just (for me! take this as personal opinion ).. nothing in-depth to do - and I understand that, in a large, predominantly procedurally-generated universe, it's difficult for FD to create game-play that keeps engaging at every front rather than rely on RNG. Take POIs on planets for example. Your ship will give you an idea there's "something" there, but you don't know what - or where, immediately... In space, we see icons for ships, and know where they are.. on planets, POIs are handled differently... it all seems disjointed.

I understand that people have issues with attachment...they feel disconnected from experience, or not fully connected to stay in game. However it seems everybody struggles to describe what exactly 'in-depth' means And that's not a diss, just observation - in the end it is up to devs to decipher our wishes.

I suspect making NPCs alive - NPC comms, animations - might improve this quite a bit.

With a play area as vast as the one we have in Elite D the answer isn't to cram stuff into it like Blizzard have done with WoW but to make the finding of the stuff that is there more intuitive and interesting, be that in space or planetside. More engaging and involved scanners and sensors would be a good step in the right direction in my opinion, actually involving the pilot in analysing information while in transit to POI's and the like. If Frontier can find a way to engage the pilot in the discovery process more, make it interesting rather than just an exercise in 1) YouTube, 2) Point and go it would make not only discoveries but also travel more interesting and engaging.

Well said, repped +1.

I personally enjoy ED great deal as it is now and playing it when I have time to fully embrace it. It is highly possible because of my limited play time. Said that, yeah, considerable part of gameplay could benefit hugely to have more player engagement. That's why I am looking forward to mining and exploring reworks at Q4. Sandro hinting at NPC comms during last live stream gives me hope too.

 

[Dutchman141]

With a play area as vast as the one we have in Elite D the answer isn't to cram stuff into it like Blizzard have done with WoW but to make the finding of the stuff that is there more intuitive and interesting, be that in space or planetside. More engaging and involved scanners and sensors would be a good step in the right direction in my opinion, actually involving the pilot in analysing information while in transit to POI's and the like. If Frontier can find a way to engage the pilot in the discovery process more, make it interesting rather than just an exercise in 1) YouTube, 2) Point and go it would make not only discoveries but also travel more interesting and engaging.

This^^^

I love ED, flying spaceships, making my own story, huge environment, etc. etc.
I also loved playing Skyrim, a dungeon around every corner, a quest from every other npc, etc. etc.

The two mentioned games are completely different and yet somewhat the same in certain instances.
ED, a proc generated universe, Skyrim a handmade world, and that is where the biggest difference is imho, also regarding the dev's possibilities to insert events.
But I do agree that certain mechanics are missing in ED to make the proc generated content compelling.
Maybe Q4 will bring some positive changes in at least exploring that huge proc generated galaxy, I definitely hope so.

Fortunately I can have a lot of fun in ED using my own imagination but I see where the OP is comming from.

 

[GunnerBill]

OP, the answer to your question is really quite simple:

Hawkwind, Black Corridor

Space is infinite, it is dark
Space is neutral, it is cold
Stars occupy minute areas of space
They are clustered a few billion here
And a few billion there
As if seeking consolation in numbers
Space does not care, space does not threaten
Space does not comfort
It does not speak, it does not wake
It does not dream

It does not know, it does not fear
It does not love, it does not hate
It does not encourage any of these qualities
Space cannot be measured, it cannot be
Angered, it cannot be placated
It cannot be summed up, space is there
Space is not large and it is not small
It does not live and it does not die
It does not offer truth and neither does it lie
Space is a remorseless, senseless, impersonal fact
Space is the absence of time and of matter

 

[RamirezKurita]

The problem I see is that FD are conflicted between creating a handcrafted galaxy and story vs creating a procedural and continually evolving galaxy. The two aspects are very difficult to reconcile, which creates the mostly empty galaxy that nobody cares about, while the focal points that players flock to are all static and determined by FD (whether by manual insertion or by poor balance work spitting out broken numbers). This combination of a vast procedural galaxy combined with static parameters and a scripted story the galaxy is following creates this vast desert of insignificant nothingness that it is hard to get attached to or care about, as nothing will change unless a developer suddenly decides that something needs changing - effectively creating the worst of both worlds by creating a massive play area where most of it doesn't matter as the only places that matter are those that a human spends time on.

 

[PrometheusDarko]

So, this has been said, but I feel like Frontier made us an awesome sand-box, one that I have had a ton of fun in, and may some day return to, however, they did not give us any sand.

We have gorgeous tools, and the gameplay itself generally feels well made, however, we have very little to do with the tools. I remember reading threads during Alpha discussing player owned mining stations, or even players helping expand the galaxy. Imagine being able to drop a "Repair Dock" in a system along your exploration path. It might broadcast to the surrounding systems, making it visible from the map if you're within the radius/have visited it before. As it gets use, it can slowly grow to a small outpost, then a more specialized deep-outpost, based on how players used it/the owner set it up. Imagine setting down a factory, producing more advanced trade goods to sell at increased profit margins by trading time and up-front investment.

Imaging having sand to play with. Even if only outside the established "Core systems". And before anyone thinks I'm asking for a first person EvE Online, I'm not. I'm asking for something to do. Give me some toys and some rules, because right now, I feel like I've done everything I can do.

I've run the missions, I've mined belts, I've hunted for bounties, I've claimed a Faction Ship, I've done the Power-Play flavored missions, I've pirated, I've flown, I've landed, I've roved around, and I've enginnered.

I'm not saying I dislike the game, far from it, it was an amazing experience. It's just... Over now. Similarly to when I finished Elite on the SNES, or when I completed Frontier: First Encounters on my Grandpa's windows 98. I just wish there were more to the game, a reason to come back, to stay engaged. I don't even care about the Thargoids anymore because we waited three years for them to get here, be spoopy, and now just be another damned interdiction mechanic except this time they don't pretend you can escape reliably.

I just... I want to. I want to love this game more, and while it's a fond memory and the reason behind meeting one of my best friends, it somehow disappointed me. Maybe that's my own fault for projecting my own expectations, maybe I should have tempered myself a bit. It's an amazing game, it just feels over.

 

[Kicks]

The problem I see is that FD are conflicted between creating a handcrafted galaxy and story vs creating a procedural and continually evolving galaxy. The two aspects are very difficult to reconcile, which creates the mostly empty galaxy that nobody cares about, while the focal points that players flock to are all static and determined by FD (whether by manual insertion or by poor balance work spitting out broken numbers). This combination of a vast procedural galaxy combined with static parameters and a scripted story the galaxy is following creates this vast desert of insignificant nothingness that it is hard to get attached to or care about, as nothing will change unless a developer suddenly decides that something needs changing - effectively creating the worst of both worlds by creating a massive play area where most of it doesn't matter as the only places that matter are those that a human spends time on.

That's actually very well put - and I missed in my original post.

 

[Mengy]

With a play area as vast as the one we have in Elite D the answer isn't to cram stuff into it like Blizzard have done with WoW but to make the finding of the stuff that is there more intuitive and interesting, be that in space or planetside. More engaging and involved scanners and sensors would be a good step in the right direction in my opinion, actually involving the pilot in analysing information while in transit to POI's and the like. If Frontier can find a way to engage the pilot in the discovery process more, make it interesting rather than just an exercise in 1) YouTube, 2) Point and go it would make not only discoveries but also travel more interesting and engaging.

This is what I dearly hope the Q4 update does later this year.

 

[Iskariot]

Greetings Commanders o7!

There was a thread on here, not so long ago. It was quite controversial and got locked - probably for the better. I made a comment in that thread, making some comparisons between World Of Warcraft and ED and I wanted to expand on this in it's own post. I say this because, after I made that comment I decided to re-sub to WoW and see what had happened in my absence, and what I had to do to get to the max level again.

I'll preface with with a disclaimer - I understand that there is a massive difference between the team-sizes, the genre, and what the ultimate experience is supposed to be. It might seem shocking that I am comparing the two, and I'm not even going to go down the comparison of "MMO vs MMO", as it's not justified and both games scratch different itches.

The Elite galaxy is vast. It is impossible to put meaningful content in every nook and cranny. WoW doesn't have this drawback, it's all handcrafted and there's nothing holding anybody back from putting a secret here, or an activity there. WoW is one of the biggest grinds there are, if you're after certain reputation - or want a certain mount, or you're after a certain drop from a dungeon. The thing is, the grind can be disguised with the sheer plethora of other things you can be doing.

You can, in a heart-beat, invite friends to participate in an activity, or challenge you're trying to overcome - seamlessly. I can talk to guild-members whilst I fish, whilst queuing for challenges I need to complete.


I digress.


Why am I making this comparison?

Because Elite is open-world, but it seems that at every juncture - we're punished. I know Frontier cannot populate the galaxy with fun activities, it would be an inordinate amount of resources to do so. But even within the bubble, the space stations are stagnant, and the missions lacklustre. There's no moment-to-moment gameplay.

Unlike Blizzard, FD have a far harder task on their hands... as Blizz can hand-craft their universe, FD needs to make their procedural generated one, fun and interesting. There seems to be more effort involved than explaining away teleprescence rather than just saying "It's a way for you to play together". WoW is very lore-focused also, but they don't try and explain away queuing for dungeons.

I want Elite to fill these holes and become the Space-game everyone turns to for space-fun with their friends.

I am sure you will be very disappointed if you expect ED to become a World of Warcraft in space.
ED is a game in the Elite Spacesim series.
It is very, very different from WoW and I hope it will stay that way.
I do not want FDev to look at MMO's for MMO-like concepts.
I do not care one bit about the MMO-like stuff in ED.
What I do care about is a cool, immersive, rich, varied galaxy.
There is a lot of straight forward things FDev can do to build an awesome long lasting space game and none of that involves WoW-like stuff.

More engaging and involved scanners and sensors would be a good step in the right direction in my opinion, actually involving the pilot in analysing information while in transit to POI's and the like. If Frontier can find a way to engage the pilot in the discovery process more, make it interesting rather than just an exercise in 1) YouTube, 2) Point and go it would make not only discoveries but also travel more interesting and engaging.

I want that sooo much!

 

[PrometheusDarko]

A reminder of what could have been...

• Actual conversations with NPCs...
  
• Paying for your ship on 'credit' & Ironman Mode
• Multi-zone shields.
• More in-depth resource mining

This was the game I was excited for, and I feel like I wanted to see this succeed for so many selfish reasons. Alas, what I got was, while a very fun game, a shell of what could have been.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

We are basically missing "stuff to do that has meaning to the player and persistent in the universe", or to put that in reverse perspective the gameplay revolves to heavily on "repeating tasks that become meaningless after a few times". What you end up with is each and every players personal resistance and tolerance to the repetition.

Personally I'd ask Frontier to go through the ED mechanics to flag features that become tedious or shallow after a while and then look for solutions which above all else do not expand on the tedium.

 

[Urbanski101]

Hopefully Q4 and the explorer update will address some of this....the tools to discover new and interesting things.

I hear you and in many ways I feel the same....I'm just loving it right now....that won't last forever nor should it...I will take more breaks.

But I agree it's lacking a few fundamental ingredients to really bring the game and the amazing galaxy they've created to life. I've made suggestions and crafted my theories so I won't repeat them here.

Beyond is a real opportunity to realise the potential of ED and I don't mean adjusting a few sliders on mission rewards or tinkering with engineers or adding a new ship (although all improvements are welcome). I mean stripping out the BGS and re imagining it, how we interact with the galaxy and the NPCs and how they interact with us, how we communicate, how we discover and explore, how the galaxy and systems evolve around us, growth, expansion, conflict....make us feel it.

I live in hope.

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

Greetings Commanders o7!

There was a thread on here, not so long ago. It was quite controversial and got locked - probably for the better. I made a comment in that thread, making some comparisons between World Of Warcraft and ED and I wanted to expand on this in it's own post. I say this because, after I made that comment I decided to re-sub to WoW and see what had happened in my absence, and what I had to do to get to the max level again.

I'll preface with with a disclaimer - I understand that there is a massive difference between the team-sizes, the genre, and what the ultimate experience is supposed to be. It might seem shocking that I am comparing the two, and I'm not even going to go down the comparison of "MMO vs MMO", as it's not justified and both games scratch different itches.

The Elite galaxy is vast. It is impossible to put meaningful content in every nook and cranny. WoW doesn't have this drawback, it's all handcrafted and there's nothing holding anybody back from putting a secret here, or an activity there. WoW is one of the biggest grinds there are, if you're after certain reputation - or want a certain mount, or you're after a certain drop from a dungeon. The thing is, the grind can be disguised with the sheer plethora of other things you can be doing.

You can, in a heart-beat, invite friends to participate in an activity, or challenge you're trying to overcome - seamlessly. I can talk to guild-members whilst I fish, whilst queuing for challenges I need to complete.


I digress.


Why am I making this comparison?

Because Elite is open-world, but it seems that at every juncture - we're punished. I know Frontier cannot populate the galaxy with fun activities, it would be an inordinate amount of resources to do so. But even within the bubble, the space stations are stagnant, and the missions lacklustre. There's no moment-to-moment gameplay.

Unlike Blizzard, FD have a far harder task on their hands... as Blizz can hand-craft their universe, FD needs to make their procedural generated one, fun and interesting. There seems to be more effort involved than explaining away teleprescence rather than just saying "It's a way for you to play together". WoW is very lore-focused also, but they don't try and explain away queuing for dungeons.

I want Elite to fill these holes and become the Space-game everyone turns to for space-fun with their friends.

TLDR: You don't play Elite and don't like the way Elite is setup, but want to change Elite to suit you.

I like Elite. I enjoy Elite. I don't want Elite to be like WoW or any other MMO. I don't want the galaxy cluttered with stuff and shrunk to suit a small group of players who don't even play it.

 

[EISENHORN01]

So you announce to the world that your planning a trip to this new holiday resort and you would like people to join you on this trip. You can’t fund it so everyone can come for free so you have to explain to those who are interested that they will have to fund some of the cost themselves, but luckily your enthusiasm snd the thought of what lies at journeys end convinces them it’s worth the risk.

now you’ve run trips before (infact you were one of the first to really crack this market) and have built up a great reputation so you’re off to a good start, you know the basics and a bit more, so with your passengers in tow off you go.
you have a destination to aim for, problem is your not exactly sure how to get there and it doesn’t help that it’s not actually been built yet but you know your capable of getting there somehow someday.

at first it’s all gravy, the transport you bought is brand new and your passengers are so enthused with what’s to come they don’t even notice there’s only one loo. Couple of weeks in though there’s a few grumblings with the masses, they’re not happy with the in journey entertainment and a few have even started to ask if this is the right direction. Soon they begin to ask for more to do or for deviations in the direction of travel, your not blind to this infact your full of ideas on how to keep them entertained problem is they want so much and NO ONE can agree what to do first to improve the trip. Still you want nothing more than for this to succeed and agree to some of their requests while introducing some of your own. now the problems really begin, some of the ideas haven’t worked and to make things worse the transport keeps breaking down as it tries to cope with alll that you’ve added.

Now I’d like to tell you I’m on this transport, I’ve been one of the voices asking for some things, not bothered about some others but always looking forward to the end of the trip. See that’s all that matters THE END OF THE TRIP and because I have total faith that when we get there it will be just as good as you told us it would be when we started off.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

We are basically missing "stuff to do that has meaning to the player and persistent in the universe", or to put that in reverse perspective the gameplay revolves to heavily on "repeating tasks that become meaningless after a few times". What you end up with is each and every players personal resistance and tolerance to the repetition.

Personally I'd ask Frontier to go through the ED mechanics to flag features that become tedious or shallow after a while and then look for solutions which above all else do not expand on the tedium.

See, there's a big deal and that big schism between players, imho.

I don't find that stuff tedious at all, because I am...role playing. I am living in Elite universe. I have my own goals, but they are either too distant to worry about, or very close, something I can reach easily within few sessions of play.

It seems biggest issue comes when player 'play' game. I would say it translates into player wanting higher level of involvement, demand for game to produce immersion for him. People looking for different things in gameplay.

FD of course is aware of this. That's why many of 2017 updates were small, yet very visual, very impactful for immersion - like NPC avatars, mission improvements, station improvements, and so on. But they won't be serve everyone at once. And I suspect it is highly possible for someone not to figure out how to play ED now...but he will find a way after year or two.