Why I percieve the "new" scan as broken

[Micha]

Am I wrong that you'll have to point the ship at each object to see the analysis of that object? That is the core of my objection, after all because THAT will take more time than the system map TO REACH THE DECISION POINT of the system's worth in terms of further exploration. I don't want to waste the time looking at potatoes, even if it is only TO DETERMINE that they are potatoes not worth my time in the first place. With the current system, I have visual queues IN AN AGGREGATED image of the bodies, even if I don't have specifics.

You are wrong in a way. You won't be pointing the ship at each signal to resolve it, but the new scanner suite. So it won't be tied to your ship's supercruise performance. Exactly how fast it'll be we'll have to see once the beta releases.

As to whether or not you'll reach a DECISION POINT earlier or later depends entirely on WHAT that decision point is in your particular case. Some things will, with a bit of practice, be as fast or faster than the current system. For example, picking out ELW's. Or seeing whether a system only consists of "potatoes". Sure the presentation will be very different (System Map vs frequency scan graph), but a lot of the information will be present to make these kinds of decisions.

Other things will be impossible (as far as we know based on what we've seen so far) until you have resolved (or at least viewed the "blobs") some or all of the bodies in the system. For example, lots of objects with a common barycentre or a GGGG.

BUT whether or not the other changes will make up for those losses or not remains to be seen. The new mechanics appear to close the door on certain activities, but also promise to open brand new doors (or at least widen them significantly) for other activities.

 

[Micha]

Literally my only issue is the level of "situational awareness" whilst the analysis screen is up. Our main scanner-scope should be visible through the FSS GUI, as should the view from our cockpit-even if that visibility is partially obscured and/or hazy due to the FSS. A skilled pilot really should be able to fly (& even evade interdiction) & resolve signals at the same time.

While not my only issue, SO much this.

We can drive the SRV while in turret view so we have the tech to control two separate "ship" systems simultaneously already.
We have the station overlays over the cockpit view so we have the display tech already as well (and in a demonstrably more demanding graphical environment!)

So combine the two to make a virtual overlaid "turret" (ie, scanner) view over our cockpit view.

Sorry, bit OT there.

 

[Phazon Xenomorph]

The new system definitely kills any residual desire to play Elite. Between the lack of actual content and then making mind numbing tedious tasks take even longer intentionally with the same still lack of content leaves me with a 100% vote of no confidence in the developers.

 

[Valorin]

Vash627, thank you for the polite reply. Repped for being civil.

Braandlin, thank you for giving me something to laugh at. People that are that hypocritical always amuse me, at least when they aren't in the White House. Doing EVERYTHING you accuse me of in the same sentance you accuse in is... impressive.

the100thmonkey, I couldn't tell whether you are being sarcastic or not; either way, you need to work on the delivery.

As to the various, "you are wrong" elements, I notice that you talk about the new mechanics without addressing my points or proving me wrong in a specific fashion.

Am I wrong that you'll have to point the ship at each object to see the analysis of that object? That is the core of my objection, after all because THAT will take more time than the system map TO REACH THE DECISION POINT of the system's worth in terms of further exploration. I don't want to waste the time looking at potatoes, even if it is only TO DETERMINE that they are potatoes not worth my time in the first place. With the current system, I have visual queues IN AN AGGREGATED image of the bodies, even if I don't have specifics.

Just for clarification:

- The discovery scanner activated analysis mode where you're in some kind of free camera where you point at the bodies in the system and identify them via button clicks.

- This scan also gives you ALL the information the old detailed surface scanner gives you.

- You only need to fly to a body for probing it, which gives you _additional_ information we can't get with the current system.

You got these points, right?

 

[fu9ar]

You're forgetting the FSS filtered spectrum graph. It's going to give similar information about the system's configuration compared to the Unexplored system map, but abbreviated and not persistently added to your "codex"...

 

[deyot]

This kind of posts sadden me greatly. I think some people are so used to the old, bad system that they just can't let go.

First, what I don't like with the current system:
1. There's little actual gameplay in it.
2. It's a totally random, 0-1 process. One second you know nothing. "Honk" and you know everything. It's essentially a dice roll that you repeat until you find something interesting.
3. Sure it's FAST but what beside it?

Why I like the new system:
1. You first get the rough scan that allows you to make an INFORMED decision whether to continue exploring or leave. You can misinterpret the scan and leave the system that contains something interesting but then BOO-HOO live with it. It's a game and you've lost an exploration game. Interpreting scan results seem to require some skill and IMHO is way better than mind-numbing honk-see-all.
2. Then, after the scan you have to wiggle your telescope around to find stuff. You can zoom in and that way you can see how it looks and if it is interesting. I call it's a gameplay.

Old system is fast but it's not better.

 

[Tifu]

Guess your just going to have to actually explore.

Yup, if you want to tag yourself as an explorer then you'll have to put some effort into it. The god-honk is dead, finally.

 

[Han_Zen]

If you have the skill to read the result of the honk, you don’t need to point at anything.
If the system looks dull, you move on.

Same thing you used to do with the system map.

The new system probably takes a bit more skill but when you master it, it’s probably faster. You don’t have to load the system map.

 

[Marra Morgan]

The current system goes like this:

1. Jump into the system
2. Hold down your keybind to start the scan/maneuver for fueling if you are going to
3. Scan completed, pull up the system map
4. Make a decision on whether or not to invest more time on the system
5. Take other actions in system or plot course and jump out

The new system, if I understand it correctly, works like this:

1. Jump into the system
2. Hold down your keybind to start the scan/maneuver for fueling if you are going to
3. Scan completed, you now know more about the primary star
4. Activate the analysis system, manually maneuver your forward only facing sensor onto each body individually, performing a full scan on it to determine what it is
5. Make a decision on whether or not to invest more time on the system
6. Take other actions in system or plot course and jump out

While the write up of the two sequences is almost identical, the new system requires that you scan EVERY body in the system BEFORE you can make an informed decision on whether the system is even worth additional activity.

In effect, Frontier has removed the ability to make a quick decision and replaced it with what is going to be another round of repetitive, boring game play. I say this because, once you master the technique, it will become cumbersome. While you are learning it, it may or may not be entertaining, but doing it over and over again is not going to provide excitement for most people after the first hundred times.

Worse than that, statistically, the majority of that scan time is going to be used to look at objects that are not worth the time because you will still need to scan bodies which are not landable to determine that they are not landable.

No matter how impressive a skill set you develop in reading the scanner, this is not going to be a faster process for making a decision on whether the system is worth further investigation. Consider a system with multiple stars with subsystems of small, non-landable moons and planetoids. You could spend a lot of time on that system only to conclude that it was an exercise in futility.

Added to that is the idiotic notion that I need to point the nose at everything as if I am using a FLIR instead of a sensor suite that can scan in all directions when it is dealing with starships but cannot see system bodies unless they are directly in front of it. Oh, wait, it can see them persistently once you have scanned them, which means the internal logic isn't consistent.

In summary, while the mechanics for in depth MAPPING seem to be worthwhile, I feel the value of the new scanning system is going to be negative because it takes choice away from the player and puts in an procedural/RNG mechanic.

Don't worry about it, you'll get used to it soon enough.

 

[r4nger0]

I agree. They should add things to find to improve exploration, not a minigame.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Wait and see.

I have to say the same. Wait and See.

No way, it is much easier and safer to complain now when you can't be proven wrong, than to complain when the Beta is up or the update is released when it can be proven that you are just complaining for the sake of complaining

I'm 1000% sure that when the actual update falls some of you guys will say something on the lines of "You should have given the feedback with enough anticipation".

As an example, the galaxy will now be divided in several regions however, the GMP has created & supported a map of their own & recently Corbin Moran asked if it'd be possible to implement such map since it's more familiar to many people though by this point the proposal is unlikely to materialize simply because it's too late (hello long gone exploration feedback).

 

[pippo]

They say: "You can't please them all"

4 years of nagging the Devs because exploration isn't engaging and this is what comes up when they finally deliver something different?
I'm gobsmacked, really.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The current system goes like this:

1. Jump into the system
2. Hold down your keybind to start the scan/maneuver for fueling if you are going to
3. Scan completed, pull up the system map
4. Make a decision on whether or not to invest more time on the system
5. Take other actions in system or plot course and jump out

The new system, if I understand it correctly, works like this:

1. Jump into the system
2. Hold down your keybind to start the scan/maneuver for fueling if you are going to
3. Scan completed, you now know more about the primary star
4. Activate the analysis system, manually maneuver your forward only facing sensor onto each body individually, performing a full scan on it to determine what it is
5. Make a decision on whether or not to invest more time on the system
6. Take other actions in system or plot course and jump out

While the write up of the two sequences is almost identical, the new system requires that you scan EVERY body in the system BEFORE you can make an informed decision on whether the system is even worth additional activity.

In effect, Frontier has removed the ability to make a quick decision and replaced it with what is going to be another round of repetitive, boring game play. I say this because, once you master the technique, it will become cumbersome. While you are learning it, it may or may not be entertaining, but doing it over and over again is not going to provide excitement for most people after the first hundred times.

Worse than that, statistically, the majority of that scan time is going to be used to look at objects that are not worth the time because you will still need to scan bodies which are not landable to determine that they are not landable.

No matter how impressive a skill set you develop in reading the scanner, this is not going to be a faster process for making a decision on whether the system is worth further investigation. Consider a system with multiple stars with subsystems of small, non-landable moons and planetoids. You could spend a lot of time on that system only to conclude that it was an exercise in futility.

Added to that is the idiotic notion that I need to point the nose at everything as if I am using a FLIR instead of a sensor suite that can scan in all directions when it is dealing with starships but cannot see system bodies unless they are directly in front of it. Oh, wait, it can see them persistently once you have scanned them, which means the internal logic isn't consistent.

In summary, while the mechanics for in depth MAPPING seem to be worthwhile, I feel the value of the new scanning system is going to be negative because it takes choice away from the player and puts in an procedural/RNG mechanic.

So I think the new system is way more suited to the stellar cartographer type of explorer. Whilst I need to try it to be certain I think I am really going to like it. Back in the day I suggested if you wanted to jump to a system without taking any damage you had to fully explore the system before your computer could calculate perfect jump coordinates. (On selling back to UC the BGS would the generate missions to those systems to deposit nav beacons which other players connect to to jump without scanning.
This would have slowed down galaxy expansion considerably and forced some player cooperation if say going to sag a was to be doable.
This new system is obviously not that! But it is more suited to the way I would like to play i think.

If you want to just see "cool stuff" it is easier in some ways using new system as all player data will be shared (like I suggested above but without the BGS nav beacon mission)

 

[kpmop]

From what I saw on the livestream, it looks more or less the same to me (functionally at least) - you scan the system and instead of looking at the pictures in the system map you look at some kind of frequency analysis thing - it might be that this allows you to more easily differentiate between ELWs and HMCs (those blue/green not-quite-ELW looking ones!) Which would be nice.

It looks impressive but essentially it just seems to be replacing the placeholder discovery honk with some proper exploration-like gameplay, which involves some analysis rather than just looking at pictures; the new audio sounds - from actual RL observations - were interesting. The main improvement seems that you now don't have to fly to each body to scan it, so that'll save a bunch of time (though obviously not the probing bit).

Actually there's a question (save starting ANOTHER thread!) - it looked like the discovery scanner allows you to get to where the xDS + DSS gets you now (i.e. find the planets and find out the composition) - the new DSS appears to be all about the probing - is that right?

 

[Stigbob]

I'm 1000% sure that when the actual update falls some of you guys will say something on the lines of "You should have given the feedback with enough anticipation".

As an example, the galay will now be divided in several regions however, the GMP has created & supported a map of their own & recently Corbin Moran asked if it'd be possible to implement such map since it's more familiar to many people though by this point the proposal is unlikely to materialize simply because it's too late (hello long gone exploration feedback).

Wait and see.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Wait and see.

Is there any other choice?

 

[GoldenSilver484]

Can you tell if something is worth investigating before you've investigated it though? You can in the current system, but I haven't watched the livestream so I wouldn't know if you can in the new system.

As an example - most gas giants are kinda boring. In the current system, once you've honked, you probably won't bother DSSing any gas giants. Except - and this is a huge exception - there are some that are flourescent green. Not many, about half a dozen or so so far discovered in the entire galaxy. Billions of gas giants, and half a dozen that are interesting simply because they are so rare. In the new system, if you happen to stumble upon one, will you know it without investing large amounts of time scanning every single gas giant in the system just in case? I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

But yes, overall I agree with "wait and see."

From what they showed on the livestream, yes, you can determine what planet types are in the system from the signals displayed on the filtration bar. It's very similar to the SRV wave scanner.

The new system is also extremely fast when compared to the current one, in the livestream they scanned the entire system without moving from the entry point. The scans of the planets/moons was instantaneous once the filter frequency was set to scan for the correct planet/moon types, which are displayed as unique signal bars for each type.

 

[pippo]

Is there any other choice?

Yes, apparently.
Rant.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Yes, apparently.
Rant.

Well yes but you'll still be waiting & seeing.

 

[pippo]

Well yes but you'll still be waiting & seeing.

Damn