Why I think Elite Dangerous is going to dominate the Space MMO/Space Sim genre

If you buy ED today, the last version, you will be 100 % up to date, and can access everything in game. The ones who need to keep upgrading are old players.
That is not P2W at all, its more like if you buy Photo Shop V1.0 and don't upgrade as the App progress.

Same thing with games like Arma 3, only those who buy the DLC will get the new areas like the new APEX DLC. That is not P2W, that is just the game progressing and you chose to stay where you are.

If you buy Elite Dangerous today, you get a 20% completed product for a price tag of a 100% completed product, that is updated to 100%. Nothing else.
Yeah, ED is not pay to win. Skins or any cosmetic packages doesn't increase your chances of winning lol.
 
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If you buy Elite Dangerous today, you get a 20% completed product for a price tag of a 100% completed product, that is updated to 100%. Nothing else.
Yeah, ED is not pay to win. Skins or any cosmetic packages doesn't increase your chances of winning lol.

Sure, as its a WIP, however that is just the nature of things today. Paint jobs and cometic is as you said not P2W and you don't win anything.

Those who brought the Life time pass, actually made a great deal, just as those who brought the life time pass for the Witcher and other games in that category.

Again that do not change the fact that ED right now is a very solid Space game, offering a lot of features that you can't have in other space games right now, out of the box.
 
If you buy ED today, the last version, you will be 100 % up to date, and can access everything in game. The ones who need to keep upgrading are old players.
That is not P2W at all, its more like if you buy Photo Shop V1.0 and don't upgrade as the App progress.

Same thing with games like Arma 3, only those who buy the DLC will get the new areas like the new APEX DLC. That is not P2W, that is just the game progressing and you chose to stay where you are.

Not really the Case.
You have to Buy ED.
And the Expansion.
And there will be more Expansions.

Star Citizen wont Sell Expansions. They will only Sell Ingame Stuff. ;)
Meaning that at no Time Star Citizen will have a Case where One Player has Access to these Cool Heat Lasers, while the other Player cannot get these unless he Pays Real Money :)


Pay to Win is Defined by the Ability to Buy an Advantage not Available to Players who dont Pay for it.
Thats the Case with Engineers. But is not Planned for Star Citizen ;)
 
Star Citizen wont Sell Expansions. They will only Sell Ingame Stuff. ;)

Source?

Pay to Win is Defined by the Ability to Buy an Advantage not Available to Players who dont Pay for it.
Thats the Case with Engineers. But is not Planned for Star Citizen ;)

Pay to win can just as much be a case of buying time advantages in one form or another. Buy ingame buffs/assets required for playing and competing on a certain level that can also be earned by playing the game, but require substantial, potentially even unfeasible time investment?

You just payed to "win"/compete.
 
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Source?



Pay to win can just as much be a case of buying time advantages in one form or another. Buy ingame buffs/assets required for playing and competing on a certain level that can also be earned by playing the game, but require substantial, potentially even unfeasible time investment?

You just payed to "win"/compete.

1.
Proving a Negative.
There is no Announcement that any Expansions will be Made.
This cannot be Proven because well. I cant very well Show you something that I say doesnt exist ;)

2.
Wrong.
Pay to Win is only Viable if the Advantage is not Available for other Users.
Thats why its Named Pay to Win.
An Time Advantage is not Pay to Win.
 
Not really the Case.
You have to Buy ED.
And the Expansion.
And there will be more Expansions.

Star Citizen wont Sell Expansions. They will only Sell Ingame Stuff. ;)
Meaning that at no Time Star Citizen will have a Case where One Player has Access to these Cool Heat Lasers, while the other Player cannot get these unless he Pays Real Money :)


Pay to Win is Defined by the Ability to Buy an Advantage not Available to Players who dont Pay for it.
Thats the Case with Engineers. But is not Planned for Star Citizen ;)

You buy ED today and it will be 2.1 all included, you will not need to buy anything to be on the same starting level.
Because you choose to not upgrade your game is not P2W, that is just you being A) stingy B) happy with the version you already have.
This discussion is going nowhere, fact, SC sells ships hence you get an instant advantages to other players, you buy ED and you have access to everything from day one.

Those who purchased the game in 2014 and didn't upgrade are in the same situation as someone who buys photo shop and don't upgrade, meaning you can't access the same features.

That is not P2W.

In SC you can buy ammo, and weapons with real money, that is P2W, you can't do that in ED.
Repeating the same over and over will not make it less so, there is not P2W in ED.
 
You buy ED today and it will be 2.1 all included, you will not need to buy anything to be on the same starting level.
Because you choose to not upgrade your game is not P2W, that is just you being A) stingy B) happy with the version you already have.
This discussion is going nowhere, fact, SC sells ships hence you get an instant advantages to other players, you buy ED and you have access to everything from day one.

Those who purchased the game in 2014 and didn't upgrade are in the same situation as someone who buys photo shop and don't upgrade, meaning you can't access the same features.

That is not P2W.

In SC you can buy ammo, and weapons with real money, that is P2W, you can't do that in ED.
Repeating the same over and over will not make it less so, there is not P2W in ED.

You misunderstand the whole thing of what Star Citizen currently is. It's still a crowd funded project where you buy ingame ships or packages to fund it. Because it's not yet a product, any P2W arguments is not substantiated.

World of Warcraft is P2W. ED isn't. SC certainty isn't because it's still in alpha stage.
 
I view pay to win as a bit of a sliding scale. Pure pay to win would be where you cannot achieve something by the application of time and/or skill and instead must purchase whatever "it" is. At the other end of the spectrum are games where you can pay for things that don't affect the gameplay experience directly, such as paint jobs and other accoutrements. I do not see pay to win as being a "yes/no" status, it is more complicated than that.

Expansions fall somewhere (not very far imho) along the line because you cannot reasonably expect to compete without maintaining your version of the game. However it is important to note that: One, the price of the expansion is largely the same for each person, sure there's some variation but if you are being reasonable you need to compare people who bought the game at the same time; And Two, the motivations behind charging for an expansion are much more clear cut. That is to say that in order to justify the new expansion, and/or develop the next expansion, you must bring in income as a result of the money spent on that expansion.

Contrasting with a "money = time/effort/skill" approach and you have less clear cut motivations and a potentially significantly different pay scale. If an ED expansion is £20 (I don't actually know what it is at the moment) then you know that in spending that £20 at that point in time that you are in the same position as everyone else who bought at (roughly) the same point in time. If you can buy e.g. credits, ships and other "desirables" ala Star Citizen, then it becomes much more complicated until you reach the absolute upper reaches of spending, which in SCs case is 10s of thousands of dollars. There's a massive difference between being able to afford a £20 expansion and being able to spend $20000~ to ensure reasonable parity between players.

If I have low time and high money I can skip content to maintain parity with my "rivals". If I have high time and low money I can work at it harder to maintain parity. If I have high money and high time then I have the best of both. 2 out of 3 of those scenarios involve spending money. With the expansion approach there are only 2 possibles: I bought the expansion; I didn't buy the expansion. It is much clearer cut. Not only that, but the valuation of time becomes an issue because if e.g. I have 6 hours play time per day, and no money vs I have 1 hour play time per day and a good amount of money, is a possible scenario then there's a weight of responsibility on the developer to determine how much real world cash equals how much in game effort. Tricky.

Ultimately the concerns about p2w boil down to parity...What an individual needs to put in (be it time or money) to stay on par with their peers. As a result I'd argue that SC is much closer to "pure" p2w than ED is. People generally find it less objectionable when someone has put in effort to achieve something rather than just paid for it.
 
You misunderstand the whole thing of what Star Citizen currently is. It's still a crowd funded project where you buy ingame ships or packages to fund it. Because it's not yet a product, any P2W arguments is not substantiated.

World of Warcraft is P2W. ED isn't. SC certainty isn't because it's still in alpha stage.

Isn't yet. Just because you can't really apply the benefits of spending the cash you are still counting on there being benefits. If you had spent $3000 on ships and were then told that in fact when the game officially comes out that everyone would get the same ships....I think it would be fair to say most in such a situation would be displeased. So I'd (strongly) argue that as an example of a facet of the P2W spectrum SC is still very much applicable.
 
Isn't yet. Just because you can't really apply the benefits of spending the cash you are still counting on there being benefits. If you had spent $3000 on ships and were then told that in fact when the game officially comes out that everyone would get the same ships....I think it would be fair to say most in such a situation would be displeased. So I'd (strongly) argue that as an example of a facet of the P2W spectrum SC is still very much applicable.

Correct, SC isn't a product, yet. But its player base might as well be called alpha testers. Buying a large ship for a substantial amount of money isn't P2W by the definition. You're only sinking more money into the project. I even think it's unfair to even bring up SC in the P2W discussion as it is so far from completion. It really is black and white here. When SC is a released product, let's continue the P2W discussion then. ;)
 
Correct, SC isn't a product, yet.

I'd add a clarification to that:

SC isn't a finished product, yet.

You can pay them money, so it's a product. A preorder of sorts, but a product nonetheless. If you can pay money for things that will permit you to avoid/minimise the application of effort then it must fall under the umbrella of P2W - something I'd argue has no single definition but a range of them.
 
1.
Proving a Negative.
There is no Announcement that any Expansions will be Made.
This cannot be Proven because well. I cant very well Show you something that I say doesnt exist ;)

From the absence of add-on (or any post release monetization) announcements of SC, you infer there won't be any addons and construct a comparison of monetization concepts on top of your private glassball prediction.

2.
Wrong.
Pay to Win is only Viable if the Advantage is not Available for other Users.
Thats why its Named Pay to Win.
An Time Advantage is not Pay to Win.

Wrong in your head maybe, but who's to say you thought everything through?

Take a game with payable time based advantages with open player encounters that aren't restricted by progress or level, like Elite or Star Citizen, where all progress can be managed by in-game means as well, but it takes a factor > 1 longer to do so compared to when you don't pay. Two players of equal skill level play for the exact same amount of time, yet only one pays for quicker progress. In a direct encounter, the player who doesn't pay to speed up their progress will lose and the paying player will have played to win and will have won by no other virtue than investing additional money.

This gets more fair again as soon as player encounters are restricted to the player's progress, but in open encounters, paying players will have on average an advantage,, because they can play at the very least as much, as any non paying player and this advantage will only end once they reach the progress cap.
 
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World of Warcraft is P2W. ED isn't. SC certainty isn't because it's still in alpha stage.

How is WoW P2W ?

If you're meaning boost a char to 90 (or whatever the current cap is) that isn't "win".

What is win in WoW anyway ? Defeat final top boss - game over & end credits ? :S
 
How is WoW P2W ?

If you're meaning boost a char to 90 (or whatever the current cap is) that isn't "win".

What is win in WoW anyway ? Defeat final top boss - game over & end credits ? :S

Hm I very much think that pay to get boost is a little win. Maybe I've been away too long and have listened to people I shouldn't listen to, but can't you like buy pretty powerful weapons that scale with your level as well? I think that's pay to win.
 
You buy ED today and it will be 2.1 all included, you will not need to buy anything to be on the same starting level.
Because you choose to not upgrade your game is not P2W, that is just you being A) stingy B) happy with the version you already have.
This discussion is going nowhere, fact, SC sells ships hence you get an instant advantages to other players, you buy ED and you have access to everything from day one.

Those who purchased the game in 2014 and didn't upgrade are in the same situation as someone who buys photo shop and don't upgrade, meaning you can't access the same features.

That is not P2W.

In SC you can buy ammo, and weapons with real money, that is P2W, you can't do that in ED.
Repeating the same over and over will not make it less so, there is not P2W in ED.

Mate.
If Upgrading is an Real Money Payment which Gives you an Advantage over other Players that they cannot get unless Paying Real Money.
Than Sorry but that is Pay to Win.
Because well. You Pay to Win :)

As an sidenote.
Special Sales etc are not counting towards the System.
Because they dont change the System but merely create an short time exception of the System.


No Offense Mate.
But the Fact is.

That in Elite Dangerous. You can Buy Ingame Content which will give you an Overwhelming Advantage against anyone who did not Buy it.
And there is no way to get it without Buying it for Real Money.

And Sorry but that is the very Definition of Pay to Win :)
 
nah. There's a reason why there hasn't been an outcry about 2.1 being "pay to win" outside a few sad cases playing semantic games on the forums: it isn't.

Access to engineers among other features of the Horizons season is hardly selling an Anaconda for $300 and better lasers for $20 each.

I'd much rather fund the game with expansions and cosmetic sales than the tacky ship sales nightmare of Star Citizen, thank you very much.
 
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Ehhrm....

Small Check.

Game Advantages in Star Citizen which can be Bought for Real Money. But can not be Archieved inside the Game.
None

Game Advantages in Elite Dangerous which can be Bought for Real Money. But can not be Archieved inside the Game.
Access to Engineers and thus to Increased Damage, Armor etc etc


Sorry Mate.
But Currently. Elite Dangerous is much more Pay to Win than Star Citizen.
Star Citizen only allows Buying Stuff for Real Money which you can also Buy using Ingame Money.

Sorry mate, but "expansions" arent pay to win at all. Every MMO or game with expansion has it, either you as a player follows with it or you dont. In WoW if you dont, you get left behind in anything and your char is completly useless if you dont buy that expansion.

And yet Star Citizen allows YOU to buy ingame money with real money. That ingame money if its stand at this will be crucial for several things like faster respawn of you $1000 dollar ship. And at this point you arent even able to get ANY ship in star citizen without paying real money. Either buying a ship completly or being a subscriber and being able to try out other ships. You hear me right, the function before 2.4 where someone could use ingame money to try out a ship is GONE.
We are talking about a pre-alpha where people need to buy ships with real money in order to test them....how mental is that. But i digress.

------

ED will have its market, it will grow over time. Is the only bigger space game with good VR support. The problem behind that? FD if they still want to add walking in this game, have to figure out a method to not exclude those VR gamers.
We are talking here about a fundamental problem in ALL VR games. Moving around the game as a person...the easy solution like everybody else...teleport through rooms ect. But as a normal plaer seeing someone porting around the station like he uses a telehack...uhm together with boarding/fps double uhhmm..
 
Sorry mate, but "expansions" arent pay to win at all. Every MMO or game with expansion has it, either you as a player follows with it or you dont. In WoW if you dont, you get left behind in anything and your char is completly useless if you dont buy that expansion.

And yet Star Citizen allows YOU to buy ingame money with real money. That ingame money if its stand at this will be crucial for several things like faster respawn of you $1000 dollar ship. And at this point you arent even able to get ANY ship in star citizen without paying real money. Either buying a ship completly or being a subscriber and being able to try out other ships. You hear me right, the function before 2.4 where someone could use ingame money to try out a ship is GONE.
We are talking about a pre-alpha where people need to buy ships with real money in order to test them....how mental is that. But i digress.

------

ED will have its market, it will grow over time. Is the only bigger space game with good VR support. The problem behind that? FD if they still want to add walking in this game, have to figure out a method to not exclude those VR gamers.
We are talking here about a fundamental problem in ALL VR games. Moving around the game as a person...the easy solution like everybody else...teleport through rooms ect. But as a normal plaer seeing someone porting around the station like he uses a telehack...uhm together with boarding/fps double uhhmm..

You Buy Content which is an Insane Advantage over anyone who does not Buy it Mate.
And others cannot get this Advantage without Paying Real Money but still are Forced to Compete against it.

Thats by Definition Pay to Win.
Sorry but there is no way around this Fact.

You can Argue the heck out of it.
But Ultimately this Expansion is just an DLC, an Package, the Access to Overpowered Items which give you an Incredible Advantage over Players who dont have them.
And that is and Stays Pay to Win.



Because for a Fact.
Someone who Bought Horizons and Equipped himself with Thermal Shock Weapons and Boosted Shields. Will easily Kill Players who have not Bought Horizons and thus have no Access to any Modifieid Weapons.
 
You Buy Content which is an Insane Advantage over anyone who does not Buy it Mate.
And others cannot get this Advantage without Paying Real Money but still are Forced to Compete against it.

Thats by Definition Pay to Win.
Sorry but there is no way around this Fact.

You can Argue the heck out of it.
But Ultimately this Expansion is just an DLC, an Package, the Access to Overpowered Items which give you an Incredible Advantage over Players who dont have them.
And that is and Stays Pay to Win.



Because for a Fact.
Someone who Bought Horizons and Equipped himself with Thermal Shock Weapons and Boosted Shields. Will easily Kill Players who have not Bought Horizons and thus have no Access to any Modifieid Weapons.

No it isn't. You're simply stretching a definition to fit your argument.

The common perception of the term pay-to-win refers to cash shop items, not the side effect of an expansion...
 
Hm I very much think that pay to get boost is a little win. Maybe I've been away too long and have listened to people I shouldn't listen to, but can't you like buy pretty powerful weapons that scale with your level as well? I think that's pay to win.

Slightly OT for sure: the weapons you speak of (and armour / other items) are bought in game with in game currency. They make levelling fun for sure as you are very over powered but at max level they are pretty useless. "Buying" your way to max level is useful for returning players who can't be bothered with levelling (a mistake if you ask me) as to them, and a lot of others, the game truly starts to shine at max level where all the hard dungeons and raids are. Once maxed level you still need to gear up.
 
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