Surely they can afford a $40 joystick from bestbuy or your nearest electronics retailer?! LOL
Why I use a mouse rather than a joystick
- Thread starter SentineI
- Start date
Yes Frontier must do everything possible to achieve the excellence with the mouse and the keyboard. Because many of people prefer the keyboard and the mouse, and many other people, simply do not have the money to buy a gamepad or joystick
Just had a quick play session with a mouse.
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Yeah, no, it does not work. There is a weird lack of centering-out, precise maneuvering is practically infeasible (especially during docking), and the "yaw into roll on initial roll" seems to make things even worse, not better.
I can guarantee you one thing, at least:
Anyone new to the game, who buys this, logs in, and tries flying with the mouse will utterly hate the controls.
As for another reason why *I* tend to / want to use mouse instead of the joystick (t16000) I have:
I just plain don't have space on my desk to comfortably place a joystick. It is too high, and too much to the side - basically my wrist hurts after about 30 minutes of play. I'd much rather use the mouse, which doesn't give me RSI.
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Yeah, no, it does not work. There is a weird lack of centering-out, precise maneuvering is practically infeasible (especially during docking), and the "yaw into roll on initial roll" seems to make things even worse, not better.
I can guarantee you one thing, at least:
Anyone new to the game, who buys this, logs in, and tries flying with the mouse will utterly hate the controls.
As for another reason why *I* tend to / want to use mouse instead of the joystick (t16000) I have:
I just plain don't have space on my desk to comfortably place a joystick. It is too high, and too much to the side - basically my wrist hurts after about 30 minutes of play. I'd much rather use the mouse, which doesn't give me RSI.
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Logitech is a good brand for the keyboard and mouse. But (for this joystick) it is solid in the long term at that price ?
I want to point out that people are enjoying the game with T.16000M the t-flight X and Logitech Extreme 3d pro joysticks, and they are all £40 or less. Support for higher end sticks / HOTAS doesn't mean the game is only properly playable with them.
So to stop this "go buy a joystick noob" nonsense, here's a thought on how to improve mouse:
What if you could actually see, on-screen, where your mouse was located?
Right now we just have a central vector that goes brighter/dimmer based on distance. That doesn't really work for me, at all - I want to see where on the display panel my cursor actually is. That way, I could, you know, react and respond and move it where it has to be as necessary; as-is I have little to no reference as to what I should do to make the ship, say, turn X degrees slower but pitch Y degrees faster.
What if you could actually see, on-screen, where your mouse was located?
Right now we just have a central vector that goes brighter/dimmer based on distance. That doesn't really work for me, at all - I want to see where on the display panel my cursor actually is. That way, I could, you know, react and respond and move it where it has to be as necessary; as-is I have little to no reference as to what I should do to make the ship, say, turn X degrees slower but pitch Y degrees faster.
You want to say, broken after a few months ?
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i have no issue in theory with improving mouse control.... however....
the problem as I see it, please correct me where I am wrong!.
1) Without inbuilt flight aids it is damn hard to fly due to a lack of axis on a mouse.
What you tend to see with many games is you get inbuilt assists where the computer simplifies the controls and removes some of the complexities for you.
Before you disagree with me, think of it like this, if a mouse truly was good enough to control a vehicle in flight why do no real aircraft use them?
2) so why not build in aids to make the game easy on a mouse.... well, that is what FD will be doing, and going forward maybe more tweaks will be made, but the problem is that old multiplayer chestnut again........... if mouse/kb is "optimised" too much that it is easily flyable, all of a sudden mouse may come potentially really OP. This is something FD have to be really careful of. With a complex flight mechanic taken care of by the computer, all of a sudden the pin point aim accuracy of a mouse may become a problem.
You say you should not have to have a stick to play.... Maybe not, but this is a game aiming to be a space flight sim, and many HAVE bought the proper hardware to play. If all of a sudden those specialised controls became a disadvantage over mouse, that would be a disaster imo as players will not use them, not because they dont want to but because they are a handicap......
Its my go to example for many things, but War Thunder Arcade mode is a good example. try playing that with a stick and you are in for a world of paiin. I like warthunder a lot, but I would be gutted if that happened with ED.
No one would complain if a racing sim like iracing was hard to control on a KB/M compared to a steering wheel (I hope).
Freelancer was not a bad game.... but imo it was spoiled greatly by the dull controls.
As ever single player offline, I have no issue what nerfs are put in place for the player.
the problem as I see it, please correct me where I am wrong!.
1) Without inbuilt flight aids it is damn hard to fly due to a lack of axis on a mouse.
What you tend to see with many games is you get inbuilt assists where the computer simplifies the controls and removes some of the complexities for you.
Before you disagree with me, think of it like this, if a mouse truly was good enough to control a vehicle in flight why do no real aircraft use them?
2) so why not build in aids to make the game easy on a mouse.... well, that is what FD will be doing, and going forward maybe more tweaks will be made, but the problem is that old multiplayer chestnut again........... if mouse/kb is "optimised" too much that it is easily flyable, all of a sudden mouse may come potentially really OP. This is something FD have to be really careful of. With a complex flight mechanic taken care of by the computer, all of a sudden the pin point aim accuracy of a mouse may become a problem.
You say you should not have to have a stick to play.... Maybe not, but this is a game aiming to be a space flight sim, and many HAVE bought the proper hardware to play. If all of a sudden those specialised controls became a disadvantage over mouse, that would be a disaster imo as players will not use them, not because they dont want to but because they are a handicap......
Its my go to example for many things, but War Thunder Arcade mode is a good example. try playing that with a stick and you are in for a world of paiin. I like warthunder a lot, but I would be gutted if that happened with ED.
No one would complain if a racing sim like iracing was hard to control on a KB/M compared to a steering wheel (I hope).
Freelancer was not a bad game.... but imo it was spoiled greatly by the dull controls.
As ever single player offline, I have no issue what nerfs are put in place for the player.
This particular thread is supposed to be dedicated to the mouse as a control.
Not justifying your particular choice of using a joystick or the cost of one.
There are multiple other threads on Stick vs. Mouse. Instead of advancing your personal agenda onto this thread how about we stick to the OP's desired point(s)?
I can see the self-centering is a game breaker for some.
For most it's just the default sensitivity needs adjusting.
Personally I've pretty much stuck with ABSOLUTE PITCH/ROLL with the sensitivity of the mouse under the "L" (in absolute) and deadzone under the "S" (in absolute). I suppose I could do better but for me that works. And I have A&D on KB/Gamepad set for YAW.
Now my friend prefers it the other way (absolute pitch/yaw and A&D as roll)
To each their own but play with it and see if it's a game changer or game killer for YOU!
Not justifying your particular choice of using a joystick or the cost of one.
There are multiple other threads on Stick vs. Mouse. Instead of advancing your personal agenda onto this thread how about we stick to the OP's desired point(s)?
I can see the self-centering is a game breaker for some.
For most it's just the default sensitivity needs adjusting.
Personally I've pretty much stuck with ABSOLUTE PITCH/ROLL with the sensitivity of the mouse under the "L" (in absolute) and deadzone under the "S" (in absolute). I suppose I could do better but for me that works. And I have A&D on KB/Gamepad set for YAW.
Now my friend prefers it the other way (absolute pitch/yaw and A&D as roll)
To each their own but play with it and see if it's a game changer or game killer for YOU!
But Frontier to be able to improve the use of the mouse, where it is limited by the mechanical capabilities of the mouse ?
Was that aimed at me? I have no personal agenda and tried to answer the ops question as best i can but the danger of improving mouse too much IS part of the discussion.
Alright, so fairness, I think, matters a lot.
Do you think the current joystick vs. mouse control balance is fair? (If you say yes, please do a few fights with both controls in, idk, singleplayer scenarios, and then report back).
I've had a quick look - but the steam hardware survey doesnt seem to cover peripherals, and I've not found anything up to date that covers such a wide playerbase to see.
Personally, I wouldnt have thought that peripheral owning PC players would have outnumbered those with only a mouse and keyboard judging solely from the type and range of games in the last 3-4 years where a joystick could be used in a "natural fit" sort of way.
Alas - I now have a plate of food in front of me that has my attention now, but I'll have another look later on.
Its worth noting that the people who have been able to test the game so far are alpha and premium beta testers only - so people who had sufficient disposable income to back/buy the game to those tiers. As such - there is likely to be a disproportionate skewing effect towards better-pc / better-peripherals than might be there at standard beta or game release stages.
@arbanax not every game is aimed at every person. I don't think the game needs to cater for the flappy birds pick up and play kind of casual gamer and if it did I think the more serious gamer may find the game too simplistic.
Even the op admits with practice mouse is OK, so am not sure where the problem is.
Even the op admits with practice mouse is OK, so am not sure where the problem is.
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There are two ways mouse and trackball users could be helped:
1. come up with the best possible mouse/trackball interface to the Elite flight/combat model. I don't think this has been done yet. This will not necessarily make things "fair", but a level playing field across all hardware choices is not a requirement; indeed it is unachievable.
2. change the Elite flight/combat model to make it more mouse friendly. Some die-hard mouse users would probably like this option, but I can't see it happening ... it would cause an outcry, and clearly FD has their vision (which goes all the way back to Elite) for the game, and they are most unlikely to change. However, the use of these devices can surely be improved.
1. come up with the best possible mouse/trackball interface to the Elite flight/combat model. I don't think this has been done yet. This will not necessarily make things "fair", but a level playing field across all hardware choices is not a requirement; indeed it is unachievable.
2. change the Elite flight/combat model to make it more mouse friendly. Some die-hard mouse users would probably like this option, but I can't see it happening ... it would cause an outcry, and clearly FD has their vision (which goes all the way back to Elite) for the game, and they are most unlikely to change. However, the use of these devices can surely be improved.
Lestat
Banned
You know buy a good Mouse. Something like Logitech G700 that wireless but a little costly. It has 13 buttons which is what I user for most games. The only draw back is in games like COD or Battlefield 3 I tend to use 2 AA batteries a day. Lucky for me they are Rechargeable. Then there Razer Naga but I think the tail would drive me NUTS. But 17 buttons is not bad.
One thing about the mouse is I can adjust the speed of the mouse on the fly. Which can befit game play. Higher DPI can be use to move the ship in one direction longer distance vs a slower mouse speed. Then adjust DPI to a slower DPI to dock your ship.
Now I would like to point out is ChrisH open the topic cost of joystick for a game. I believe people correcting him on that topic. Nothing more nothing less.
You know My thrust master cost $30.00 Brand new and my 52x cost $20 used so there are deals you can find. It the matter if you are looking for the deals.
One thing about the mouse is I can adjust the speed of the mouse on the fly. Which can befit game play. Higher DPI can be use to move the ship in one direction longer distance vs a slower mouse speed. Then adjust DPI to a slower DPI to dock your ship.
Now I would like to point out is ChrisH open the topic cost of joystick for a game. I believe people correcting him on that topic. Nothing more nothing less.
You know My thrust master cost $30.00 Brand new and my 52x cost $20 used so there are deals you can find. It the matter if you are looking for the deals.