Why I use a mouse rather than a joystick
- Thread starter SentineI
- Start date
Ah, another joystick fan who thinks the mouse is inherently bad. It's not true. It's just the default mouse controls which suck (they can be changed to something much better IMHO). But unless you experiment a lot it's hard to know WHICH mouse settings need changing (you can easily make mouse far far worse). Which is why I want to see two mouse presets available.
I've always imagined that the vast majority of PC gamers only use a mouse+keyboard. Certainly that USED to be the case, and I've never found a reason to stop using a mouse+keyboard. I've never had a problem playing any "modern" games, although I do tend to dislike console-style games (which tend to be dumbed-down IMHO).
I recommend the Logitech M570. AFAIK it's the only thumb trackball still on the market (Microsoft stopped selling theirs), and that is the only type of trackball viable for gaming.
I've been using trackballs for so long (many years) that I can't really comment on them versus mice, but I do feel they are more precise than mice. They certainly fix the mouse's major flaw for gaming (that of running out of pad space).
If people want to try out the mouse controls which I personally use, here is a copy of my Custom.binds file:
http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/540618/Custom-binds.html
EDIT: BEWARE, these are very OUT OF DATE controls now. If you want to try my current controls then let me know.
You can backup your existing controls & try out mine using the following method:
You will almost DEFINITELY need to adjust Sensitivity, because different mice have different resolutions.
BTW, I do NOT guarantee you find my controls easy to use (for a start I use a trackball not a mouse), but I am interested to know if many people do prefer it to the existing defaults for mouse+keyboard!
EDIT: I've subsequently bound the "F" key to "Cycle to next hostile target" (or whatever it's called).
http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/540618/Custom-binds.html
EDIT: BEWARE, these are very OUT OF DATE controls now. If you want to try my current controls then let me know.
You can backup your existing controls & try out mine using the following method:
You will almost DEFINITELY need to adjust Sensitivity, because different mice have different resolutions.
BTW, I do NOT guarantee you find my controls easy to use (for a start I use a trackball not a mouse), but I am interested to know if many people do prefer it to the existing defaults for mouse+keyboard!
EDIT: I've subsequently bound the "F" key to "Cycle to next hostile target" (or whatever it's called).
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Oh well, having some hours in the game with mouse + keyboard behind me. I have not thought of changing pitch/roll into pitch/jaw. I'm not very sure if the latter one is very viable, jaw is relatively limited and roll kinda benefits from analog input (variable strength of input) more than jaw does. I'll try it out anyway.
First flight was a bit wonky, but by no means weird - hardest thing is targeting stuff precisely and I think that's generally the biggest issue with mice, since people (me included) are so used to being able to aim directly in FPS.
Docking with flight assist on is very easy to do with mouse. Thrusters can do the fine movement, so the only part that takes a bit of skill is aligning yourself correctly.
Battling: here the wrongly weird aiming convention can get in the way again. Following a ship on tail has become better, the better I managed to adjust thruster speed and use thrusters to my advantage. For some special manouvers flight assist off helps (like 180° turn without change of momentum). Flight assist off feels better with relative mouse movement though (at least for me), since you normally end up only nudging the roll or pitch into the correct direction. So I want relative mouse movement there, but for flight assist on it's inconvenient, so I can't leave it on in general. Options could be divided for the two modes without a probelm imo and it would help me ^^.
I don't think the standard mouse controls are inheritantly bad. People just need to adjust deadzone and sensitivity to their liking I guess and make sure, that they can use thrusters and jaw with their keyboard conveniently.
Trackball sounds interesting, but I don't wanna ditch my current mouse, which is pretty awesome. If I'd get new equipment for the game, then it probably would be a joystick, but I hope that it won't be necessary.
First flight was a bit wonky, but by no means weird - hardest thing is targeting stuff precisely and I think that's generally the biggest issue with mice, since people (me included) are so used to being able to aim directly in FPS.
Docking with flight assist on is very easy to do with mouse. Thrusters can do the fine movement, so the only part that takes a bit of skill is aligning yourself correctly.
Battling: here the wrongly weird aiming convention can get in the way again. Following a ship on tail has become better, the better I managed to adjust thruster speed and use thrusters to my advantage. For some special manouvers flight assist off helps (like 180° turn without change of momentum). Flight assist off feels better with relative mouse movement though (at least for me), since you normally end up only nudging the roll or pitch into the correct direction. So I want relative mouse movement there, but for flight assist on it's inconvenient, so I can't leave it on in general. Options could be divided for the two modes without a probelm imo and it would help me ^^.
I don't think the standard mouse controls are inheritantly bad. People just need to adjust deadzone and sensitivity to their liking I guess and make sure, that they can use thrusters and jaw with their keyboard conveniently.
Trackball sounds interesting, but I don't wanna ditch my current mouse, which is pretty awesome. If I'd get new equipment for the game, then it probably would be a joystick, but I hope that it won't be necessary.
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IMHO this is where (absolute) pitch/YAW really helps (small precise aiming corrections). What you have to (UN)learn is to not yaw for large horizontal movements, but instead roll & pitch. At first I thought this was horrible, but eventually it became second nature.
P.S. I've already suggested that FAOff needs relative mouse control:
http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27295
Hotblack Desiato
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TBH I always wanted to play with the classic keyboard controls, which always used to be good enough. But I defy anyone to be able to dock just using the degrees of freedom they provide. So I had a go at mouse+keyboard, and sucked at it, until I changed to pitch+yaw (which makes it like x3, and at the throttle setting with the highest manoeuvrability, the limited yaw is barely noticeable). Then I got a ps3 controller and it was very good. But I thought I'd have another go at mouse and keyboard (to stay under the radar, ps3 controller is kind of conspicuous when you've told the wife you're working). Because I was too lazy to change it (and because I wanted the roll/pitch flight model), I left it on roll/pitch.
Long story short, it comes down to practise. Now it is loads of fun, easy, and still Elite.
I don't know if anyone else has said this, but while I was initially intrigued by absolute pitch/relative yaw, any 'relative' setting is going to run out of pad space. So, actually, I think the controls are great right now - though that includes a fair degree of me learning how to do it, rather than just jumping right in. I still have no symmetry of action, though, I'm far happier to roll right and pitch up (just like in the old days) so a lot of movement is wasted.
I have switched a few things. A+D are now thrust left and right, like in an FPS. I miss the precision of keyboard control for small movements, so I have put roll in on Z+C (X now does Assist Off). This is nice because I have yaw, thrust and roll all under the correct fingers. So I can use the mouse for combat, but for precision approaches I can use just keyboard.
Long story short, it comes down to practise. Now it is loads of fun, easy, and still Elite.
I don't know if anyone else has said this, but while I was initially intrigued by absolute pitch/relative yaw, any 'relative' setting is going to run out of pad space. So, actually, I think the controls are great right now - though that includes a fair degree of me learning how to do it, rather than just jumping right in. I still have no symmetry of action, though, I'm far happier to roll right and pitch up (just like in the old days) so a lot of movement is wasted.
I have switched a few things. A+D are now thrust left and right, like in an FPS. I miss the precision of keyboard control for small movements, so I have put roll in on Z+C (X now does Assist Off). This is nice because I have yaw, thrust and roll all under the correct fingers. So I can use the mouse for combat, but for precision approaches I can use just keyboard.
Exactly, my dream setup would be corsair M95 mouse and SpacePilot PRO. That thing looks totally sci-fi, perfect for space pilots
Forget HOTAS. 
I started playing the combat missions with a mouse and was so inspired that I decided to take the plunge and purchase a CH CombatStick, Pro Throttle and Pro Pedals, along with TrackIR. Now let me just say that at first, it was a total disaster because I was so used to playing with mouse+keyboard. It was so bad that I thought I'd wasted my money. I am now slowly retraining my brain to work with these controllers and I'm started to get used to it and see some advantages (along with VoiceAttack). It's like learning to walk again - it seriously is!
My point is that I fully support those who only want to play with mouse+keyboard - it is possible and it is a lot of fun. For those that have never used a good HOTAS setup then be warned that there is a learning curve.
When I used the mouse I used to bind Yaw to Alt on the keyboard in hold-mode.
My point is that I fully support those who only want to play with mouse+keyboard - it is possible and it is a lot of fun. For those that have never used a good HOTAS setup then be warned that there is a learning curve.
When I used the mouse I used to bind Yaw to Alt on the keyboard in hold-mode.
I disagree, I'm using mouse pitch/yaw and roll on throttle buttons, I'll happly go head to head with any joystick jockey
I actually ditched mouse control in the beginning and been trying out various combinations of controllers including joystick (Saitek Evo), SpeedPad (Nostromo n52) and footcontrollers (FragPedals) for the past week. Neither combination a huge success, but I guess with practice I could be decent.
Then after reading this article and figuring 'why not', I gave the keyboard+mouse combination a second try - and I was immediately able to get past the first beginner/tutorial combat missions
Mouse actually works great and delivers much more pixel-precise control than the joystick. Granted, I haven't used joysticks much since the Atari 2600, Amstrad CPC (my first Elite experince ), Commondore Amiga (Frontier) aera, which of course explains why I'm very rusty with these things. Mouse OTOH I'm using daily for work and games (FPS), so it just feels more natural - to me
The mouse is a Logitech G5 which only has a few extra buttons. It's locked at 2000 DPI and very high cursor speed. I tried out various suggestions for mouse setup, and came up with the following combination of each which works brilliantly for me:
Mouse axis: Absolute Pitch+roll.
Using Absolute setting and high mouse speed, a slight inch movement is enough to pitch and roll at full speed in any direction, while very small movements give you pixel-precise adjustments. I tried out Relative, but it's useless because of the need for endless scrolling. I tried Pitch+yaw and using keyboard for roll - but this left me without an analogue roll and didn't give me the precision I needed. Same thing when trying using keyboard for pitch.
Mouse buttons 1+2: Yaw
This last controller change finally gave me the slight sideways adjustment buttons where I needed it. I moved primary + secondary fire to keyboard instead (currently SPACE + Left Ctrl)
Yaw into roll: Off
Mouse Deadzone: About a quarter up.
Mouse Force: About a quarter up.
These zones will need slight tweaking depending on preference. When I initially tried mouse control I made the big mistake of setting deadzone to zero, figuring it'd give me more control. However this meant what any slight mouse movement got translated into action, making it impossible to keep the ship steady. As someone else already wrote, Deadzone tweaking is key to using mouse.
Anyway after a little tweaking maneuvering is now fast when needed (ie. sharp turns), yet slow and precise ie. when aiming.
As for the rest of the current mouse configuration (though I'm still evaluating this):
Mouse wheel: Throttle control, 25% increments
Works very well (ie. two. ticks up for 50%, two more for 100% etc.). Still, I'm considering moving throttle to keyboard.
Mouse wheel click: Speed Boost
Seemed like a logical place to put it give the wheel is used for throttle. If I move throttle to keyboard I'll probably move this as well.
+/- DPI sensitivity buttons: Thrust up+down
Since I've locked the mouse at 2000DPI these buttons were free for use.
Mouse wheel tilt left/right: Thrust left/right
Again, just because they were free for use. I haven't really done much combat testing using the directional thrusts, so I haven't tested these assignments much either. Might be better on keyboard.
Mouse thumb button: Toggle Flight Assist.
This feels like the right place for it.
As for the keyboard, it's used for target selecion, weapons fire and all the rest. As noted I might switch all throttle/thrust to keyboard and the probably move the target selection function to the free mouse buttons.
Then after reading this article and figuring 'why not', I gave the keyboard+mouse combination a second try - and I was immediately able to get past the first beginner/tutorial combat missions
Mouse actually works great and delivers much more pixel-precise control than the joystick. Granted, I haven't used joysticks much since the Atari 2600, Amstrad CPC (my first Elite experince
), Commondore Amiga (Frontier) aera, which of course explains why I'm very rusty with these things. Mouse OTOH I'm using daily for work and games (FPS), so it just feels more natural - to me The mouse is a Logitech G5 which only has a few extra buttons. It's locked at 2000 DPI and very high cursor speed. I tried out various suggestions for mouse setup, and came up with the following combination of each which works brilliantly for me:
Mouse axis: Absolute Pitch+roll.
Using Absolute setting and high mouse speed, a slight inch movement is enough to pitch and roll at full speed in any direction, while very small movements give you pixel-precise adjustments. I tried out Relative, but it's useless because of the need for endless scrolling. I tried Pitch+yaw and using keyboard for roll - but this left me without an analogue roll and didn't give me the precision I needed. Same thing when trying using keyboard for pitch.
Mouse buttons 1+2: Yaw
This last controller change finally gave me the slight sideways adjustment buttons where I needed it. I moved primary + secondary fire to keyboard instead (currently SPACE + Left Ctrl)
Yaw into roll: Off
Mouse Deadzone: About a quarter up.
Mouse Force: About a quarter up.
These zones will need slight tweaking depending on preference. When I initially tried mouse control I made the big mistake of setting deadzone to zero, figuring it'd give me more control. However this meant what any slight mouse movement got translated into action, making it impossible to keep the ship steady. As someone else already wrote, Deadzone tweaking is key to using mouse.
Anyway after a little tweaking maneuvering is now fast when needed (ie. sharp turns), yet slow and precise ie. when aiming.
As for the rest of the current mouse configuration (though I'm still evaluating this):
Mouse wheel: Throttle control, 25% increments
Works very well (ie. two. ticks up for 50%, two more for 100% etc.). Still, I'm considering moving throttle to keyboard.
Mouse wheel click: Speed Boost
Seemed like a logical place to put it give the wheel is used for throttle. If I move throttle to keyboard I'll probably move this as well.
+/- DPI sensitivity buttons: Thrust up+down
Since I've locked the mouse at 2000DPI these buttons were free for use.
Mouse wheel tilt left/right: Thrust left/right
Again, just because they were free for use. I haven't really done much combat testing using the directional thrusts, so I haven't tested these assignments much either. Might be better on keyboard.
Mouse thumb button: Toggle Flight Assist.
This feels like the right place for it.
As for the keyboard, it's used for target selecion, weapons fire and all the rest. As noted I might switch all throttle/thrust to keyboard and the probably move the target selection function to the free mouse buttons.
I play with both.
Mouse when I am trading and working (Real Life Working) on the other screen. Joystick when I combatting. I tend to use Docking Computer when using mouse and manual using Joystick. I use a Trustmaster Hotas X only £35 and an amazing joystick for the cost.
I really don't like mouse for combat or manual docking. I can do both but it breaks the immersion and I have less control. Its fine for trading though.
Mouse when I am trading and working (Real Life Working) on the other screen. Joystick when I combatting. I tend to use Docking Computer when using mouse and manual using Joystick. I use a Trustmaster Hotas X only £35 and an amazing joystick for the cost.
I really don't like mouse for combat or manual docking. I can do both but it breaks the immersion and I have less control. Its fine for trading though.
Works for me. Anyone who wants to demonstrate the superiority of their joystick over my mouse is quite welcome to join slopeys chat app and arrange a sidewinder dual with me
Opinions vary. Personally I feel using a 20th century aeronautical flightstick in a 33th century space sim breaks immersion too - even if Frontier shows the pilot in the Sidewinder actually using one
Think about it: It doesn't make sense equipping a spaceship having 3 free axis of movement with a stick designed for 2 axis of movement. Actual space ship controllers will likely be some future cousin of LeapMotion/Kinect gesture reading technology controlling all three axis of movement and secondary actions by movement of the fingers.
Works for me. Anyone who wants to demonstrate the superiority of their joystick over my mouse is quite welcome to join slopeys chat app and arrange a sidewinder dual with me
I don't doubt the mouse can be accurate. I just wouldn't prefer to fly with one. Too much like Eve. I prefer a real HOTAS joystick it feels so so much better and is so much more satisfying.
Opinions vary. Personally I feel using a 20th century aeronautical flightstick in a 33th century space sim breaks immersion too - even if Frontier shows the pilot in the Sidewinder actually using one
Think about it: It doesn't make sense equipping a spaceship having 3 free axis of movement with a stick designed for 2 axis of movement. Actual space ship controllers will likely be some future cousin of LeapMotion/Kinect gesture reading technology controlling all three axis of movement and secondary actions by movement of the fingers.
This game isn't a serious simulation of the future. It's a remake of a game from 1984 with all the gorgeous trappings from my past, joysticks and all. In all honesty I somehow doubt inter-stellar spaceships will ever exist in the way we think they will, as much as flying to the moon is not possible in a balloon.
Agreed, and i love the fact that my hotas is appreciated here.
[Disclaimer: I've not read the entire thread, so apologies if this has already been mentioned]
Anyone played WarThunder with a mouse?
Their "arcade mode" is specifically tuned for keyboard and mouse, and works really well. The difference is that in WarThuder you have to lead the target, so they give you a "shoot here to hit" and as that lead pointer is moving with distance, speed, relative angle and so forth, it's reasonably tricky to align your guns for long enough to get a good burst of hits, but easy enough so that new players can grasp it.
Being "better" at aiming means you do score more hits, so skill still comes in to play.
Personally, I find the mouse perfectly ok to use. Once I trained myself to yaw with A/D and roll/pitch with the mouse, it was quite acceptable.
Anyone played WarThunder with a mouse?
Their "arcade mode" is specifically tuned for keyboard and mouse, and works really well. The difference is that in WarThuder you have to lead the target, so they give you a "shoot here to hit" and as that lead pointer is moving with distance, speed, relative angle and so forth, it's reasonably tricky to align your guns for long enough to get a good burst of hits, but easy enough so that new players can grasp it.
Being "better" at aiming means you do score more hits, so skill still comes in to play.
Personally, I find the mouse perfectly ok to use. Once I trained myself to yaw with A/D and roll/pitch with the mouse, it was quite acceptable.