Why is being a "prey" of a pirate in open a bad game design...

[MarkAusten]

Oh

Ahh, a fellow original Elite player?

Yes indeed. I still had it up to about 5 years ago when I finally threw it away. The book disintegrated years ago but I have an ebook copy in my Elite folder.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Bad assumption. I'm not a young sprout with relaxes like a cat. I'm a Grumpy Old Git and my reflexes are as slow as molasses. I don't doubt that playing against live pilots is more dangerous than NPCs but those are my limit. And It's a wise man that knows his limits.

ED allows me to play a Solo game at a level that I can. And I don't play for excitement. Never. Not in my 35 year of playing Elite have I ever played for excitement. I leave that to pilots like you. Elite for me has always been Solo, for enjoyment and just for me.

I hope you realise that when I said 'you' in my post, I didn't actually mean that literally, right?

I'm definitely no PvP god, I have zero direct player kills under my belt (I don't count the couple of cases where I was in a wing; one of them was actually whacking a ganker, the other was a T9 who refused to cooperate, silly billy that he was) and am pretty much always at the receiving end of PvP combat. Most of my ships don't carry interdictors unless I need to pull NPCs, or my pirate ships (which are small pad as mentioned before). I am pretty good (if I may say so myself) at evasion though, thanks to plenty of practice courtesy of those evil gankers/griefers.

Whenever I try to fight back I end up coming short, could be skill but a big factor is outfitting and engineering - I fly what I consider Open-proof PvE ships - most can escape a single player interdiction, and some can (and have) escaped wing attacks (i.e. true ganks, by organised groups).

I do believe that despite me losing my fair share of ships, I get better at evading at least, and that in itself is already rewarding enough for me - I don't need to win a PvP battle, I don't have the patience for it and I certainly don't feel to equip my ships in a way that would allow me to have that chance - the cost in utility outside of combat just isn't worth it for me. But there is a middle ground, and when I see or hear of Cutters getting whacked by Cobras then it's not for the Cobra, but the Cutter pilot to maybe reflect on their decisions in the game and learn from it, rather than just moan, complain and carry on as they do, until the next time their ship gets destroyed. But you can only lead a horse to water and all that...

 

[MadSinUN]

Everything would be fine and everything would work correctly, if the hope for conscious players was justified. But this did not happen and doing nothing at the same time causes sadness. ED is kept at the expense of "old school" players I assume that the game received sufficient support on" Kickstarter "mainly due to the efforts of"old school" players. New players support the game by buying it and buying ARX, but a lot of new players are leaving because of the many issues that are constantly being raised in the community. Odyssey is the last attempt of Fdev, it will either be a nail in the coffin lid or a new sigh. The game will not die but will become even more specific for a narrower circle of fans of the genre and brand. That's my opinion. And I would not like to implement the "nail in the lid".

 

[MarkAusten]

Alas, slowly but surely I get worse at evading the interdictions.

 

[MarkAusten]

Everything would be fine and everything would work correctly, if the hope for conscious players was justified. But this did not happen and doing nothing at the same time causes sadness. ED is kept at the expense of "old school" players I assume that the game received sufficient support on" Kickstarter "mainly due to the efforts of"old school" players. New players support the game by buying it and buying ARX, but a lot of new players are leaving because of the many issues that are constantly being raised in the community. Odyssey is the last attempt of Fdev, it will either be a nail in the coffin lid or a new sigh. The game will not die but will become even more specific for a narrower circle of fans of the genre and brand. That's my opinion. And I would not like to implement the "nail in the lid".

Okay, this is where I take issue with your comments.

"but a lot of new players are leaving because" - Proof. Upon what facts do you base this? Where are the numbers that support your contention?
"it will either be a nail in the coffin lid or a new sigh" - It may be to you, but I think otherwise.

Still, you obviously really have problems with ED, so perhaps it is not the game you are looking for. Move on.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Alas, slowly but surely I get worse at evading the interdictions.

I actually managed to win my second player interdiction (they interdicted me) ever - first was me flying a T7, this time I was in a Python, while getting interdicted by a Cutter.

Normally I just submit and then see what I can do, usually is easier to escape that way, depending on what the other player is flying by low- or high-waking (I usually prefer the former for obvious reasons).

 

[CNC drill press]

Elite gives the option of playing the game via the mode that each player prefers, and that's fine - I don't hold strong views re Open only etc., and think Solo/PG are necessary and here to stay (and they should). As such, I have zero issues with players who don't want to be in Open and prefer Solo, I can fully understand why and I used to play that way myself in the first year or two.

The only problem I have is with individuals who get upset when they play in Open (where they should know full well that coming across hostile players is a risk) and then complain that other players don't behave according to their needs. The game allows for a wide range of actions, and if players make use of the various options that are available to them, there's nothing wrong with that and they shouldn't be judged on what options they go for, it's a game not a psychoanalysis.

I don't like name-calling from either side of the fence, it's childish and uncalled for - I do see it from both sides but by and large the more likely group to engage in this behaviour are those who play in Solo (who taunt those who play in Open - I know they play in Solo because they actually make sure to rub that fact in) or those who were attacked.

I have a rebuy total of over 300m credits at this stage (with 150+ rebuys on record, don't remember the exact number) - if you think about it, that's from playing the game over 5 years, and yet it's a single LTD haul in a Python, crazy eh? - and not once did I offer salt in any shape or form via comms. Take it on the chin, learn from your mistakes (because there's always a lesson to be learned). I don't know why people can't have a bit more self restraint in this regard. Fragile egos most likely.

Make mobius official mode sanding right next to open and NOONE will say a word ever.

Cause right now if u dont wanna pvp but u still wanna socialize - u have to:

1) Know that mobius exist at all
2) Find reg form
3) Choose region
4) Wait for applying
5) in menu do some clicking and everytime if u wanna play if u have more pgs

Besides, its human nature to judge and evaluate things.Political correctness or being polite is just keeping opinion to yourself. But forums are for ppl to discus. Its dangerous discussion after all (see, using same logic as those sayig its dAnGeRoUs game).
Finally - some people just cannot comprehend (me included) how one can enjoy spoiling someones game just for sake of it, i mean without ANY gain.

 

[MarkAusten]

I actually managed to win my second player interdiction (they interdicted me) ever - first was me flying a T7, this time I was in a Python, while getting interdicted by a Cutter.

Normally I just submit and then see what I can do, usually is easier to escape that way, depending on what the other player is flying by low- or high-waking (I usually prefer the former for obvious reasons).

When I first got my T9 I fitted it with the biggest shields I could and turreted weapons. Then I always submitted to interdictions and let the turrets take care of keeping the NPC away whilst I got up speed and the drive cooled down. I think most of my kills have come from turrets.

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

Wow, thanks guys! I've just read through this entire thread while wallowing in the bath (there's a lovely mental image for you!) and there's some thought provoking discussion going on.

Having just recently come back to the game after my first brief foray into it, I've just switched over to Open from Solo. I know we're all in the same galaxy regardless, and that's great, but I wanted to be more of a part of it, if you get me. So far I don't think I've seen another CMDR, but knowing there's always a chance of that, that little extra bit of unpredictable traffic, adds to my experience. As a result I've neither been pirated or ganked, but I'm not playing ED to 'win' except at my own playstyle so it wouldn't really matter either way.

If the next time I log in I get interdicted by a pirate that's cool, I'll stop and comply with any scans, sorry I've got no cargo but I can offer refuel/repair services? If they're unhappy with that or I've had the misfortune to run into the infamous CMDR Murderhobo von Sociopath, then more fool them... I've got enough space-bucks for a rebuy, and you've just wasted a Search & Rescue vessel, that's some seriously bad karma man

In fact, I honestly don't think I'll go back to Solo mode except perhaps for exploring, and even then just for the last leg of the journey coming back to sell the cartography data. That's the thing I can sympathise about because it'd make me go akka too... getting shafted and losing a lengthy trip's worth of data. But that's the risk you take in the galactic sandbox so play the game the way that suits you


Keep flying CMDRs!

CMDR Achtung-Goomba

 

[Deleted member 182079]

When I first got my T9 I fitted it with the biggest shields I could and turreted weapons. Then I always submitted to interdictions and let the turrets take care of keeping the NPC away whilst I got up speed and the drive cooled down. I think most of my kills have come from turrets.

My T9 doesn't bother with weapons at all - I tend to face Elite Condas and they will chew through my shields rather quickly if I stay to fight back, so they just hamper jump range (with carrier now not a big issue anymore). Shields as big as possible (using Prismatics and boosters still get 720t), hull as buffed as possible, but if I get interdicted by a player I'm likely done for. It's mostly used for Tritium hauling so not spending too much time in SC at least.

My Python on the other hand is built to carry 180t while being able to push back (but again, against a player I will run and not engage, NPCs provide a decent source for mats though).

 

[MadSinUN]

Okay, this is where I take issue with your comments.

"but a lot of new players are leaving because" - Proof. Upon what facts do you base this? Where are the numbers that support your contention?
"it will either be a nail in the coffin lid or a new sigh" - It may be to you, but I think otherwise.

Still, you obviously really have problems with ED, so perhaps it is not the game you are looking for. Move on.

First, I clarified that this is my opinion. Secondly, you also have no figures that most new players continue to play ED. So your anger is also unfounded. As for "this is the right game or the wrong game for me", I'll decide without you, if you don't mind. You don't mind, do you?

 

[Alsteif]

It trully is interesting and even a bit amusing, that everytime it all bolis down to the argument of: "Don't force solo on us!" vs "Don't force open on us!"
And yet all i wanted to talk about, was: Can we give some solo players a reason to engage in open with others?
Alas i see that that assumption in itself was wrong, as there is no answer to be found.

 

[Brrokk]

If you know the Elite Galaxy (the lay out, and the inner workings) the chances of getting intercepted by a human aggressor is actually quite small, very small, extremely small.
Most people you meet are just going about their own business.

In my opinion the real piracy players are not a problem at all. They are extremely cool and fun to have in an open multiplayer world like Elite. They have some sort of piracy code they play by. These players are social players. They do not do it for the credits (obviously as they do not make big bucks), but they are pirates for the social interaction. I think that is awesome and it really adds to the experience of the Open gameplay. If such a pirate catches you he will most likely demand an affordable contribution to his piracy efforts. I have watched many of such videos, and it is all done in a positive spirit
Piracy Players are not gankers, or griefers, or bullies. They do not wish to have fun at the cost of yours. They are a very healthy, positive addition to the game.

Gankers or griefers do want to have fun at you expense. Their entire goal is to have fun at your expense. This is the mindset of anti-social behavior. This is completely different from what I consider to be true piracy role playing. Griefers/gankers want to ruin your fun. They are like sickly parasites. They substract from the game. Their interaction is always very negative and very unhealthy for the game. If you watch their videos, you can observe a stark difference when compared to true piracy players. These vids ooze a negative unhealthy atmosphere that is in line with their bullying, griefing behaviour. It is truly disgusting.

The biggest problem for a miner/trader is... how to distinguish between a true pirate roleplayer and a griefer. Most will not take the risk, rightly so.
And that is why griefers/gankers are unhealthy for the game. They destroy trust.

Well summarised. This is why I maintain that it's gankers who have destroyed piracy in ED, which is sad as it's consistent with the lore and should be possible in the game.

FD have allowed this by not being tough enough on griefing. They could still boost C&P so that destroying a clean ship is prohibitive but robbing one is minor, but I'm not holding my breath.

They could also make some minor changes like making mission cargo replaceable, so that it wouldn't be a huge disaster to give a few tons to a pirate.

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

It trully is interesting and even a bit amusing, that everytime it all bolis down to the argument of: "Don't force solo on us!" vs "Don't force open on us!"
And yet all i wanted to talk about, was: Can we give some solo players a reason to engage in open with others?
Alas i see that that assumption in itself was wrong, as there is no answer to be found.

Make communications easier? Am I right in understanding that the text based comms are a little unwieldy? I’m on console so I’m not sure I have other options (I can second screen my tablet for a keyboard though) but do people prefer third party comms?

My in-game ambition is to drop in on the edge of a combat zone and offer some doctoring-without-borders...

“Attention all CMDRs in the area, this is the Independent Rescue Vessel Dorman Long, we are on station for emergency repair and salvage”

There’s a daft idea! Towing crippled ships to safe harbour? Interstellar tug boats! Ha!

 

[Alsteif]

Make communications easier? Am I right in understanding that the text based comms are a little unwieldy? I’m on console so I’m not sure I have other options (I can second screen my tablet for a keyboard though) but do people prefer third party comms?

My in-game ambition is to drop in on the edge of a combat zone and offer some doctoring-without-borders...

“Attention all CMDRs in the area, this is the Independent Rescue Vessel Dorman Long, we are on station for emergency repair and salvage”

There’s a daft idea! Towing crippled ships to safe harbour? Interstellar tug boats! Ha!

I mean, the text-based comms, when you use them, everyone in the system can see what you write. So it has at least some range.
As for voice-comms, those are avaiable in game as well.

Although, that doesn't change nor fixes the issue of "People won't play in open with pirates, because it's not apealing to some (like me)". And that is the issue i wanted to discuss!

 

[MarkAusten]

First, I clarified that this is my opinion. Secondly, you also have no figures that most new players continue to play ED. So your anger is also unfounded. As for "this is the right game or the wrong game for me", I'll decide without you, if you don't mind. You don't mind, do you?

There again you misunderstand. No anger, that's your interpretation.

Also just because it's an opinion doesn't mean that you can state it without someone asking for your justification. Without justification your opinion is nothing but a lot of hot air., saying and meaning nothing at all.

Now, present the number to support your conclusion and then you opinion is worth listening to. Right now you are just making an argument out of thin air.

As for the right or wrong game. Yes, indeed make up your own mind but you sure do complain a lot about the game and that make me wonder if you even like it.

If you don't ....

 

[MadSinUN]

It trully is interesting and even a bit amusing, that everytime it all bolis down to the argument of: "Don't force solo on us!" vs "Don't force open on us!"
And yet all i wanted to talk about, was: Can we give some solo players a reason to engage in open with others?
Alas i see that that assumption in itself was wrong, as there is no answer to be found.

In open mode, there is no need to call players from solo mode. There are a lot of players in open mode. With some modification of the open mode, the same number of players will come there. There is no need to prevent fans of solo mode from playing solo mode.

 

[Alsteif]

In open mode, there is no need to call players from solo mode. There are a lot of players in open mode. With some modification of the open mode, the same number of players will come there. There is no need to prevent fans of solo mode from playing solo mode.

Indeed. And it's not my intention to do that. It's exactly about everyone being happy.

But as i saida few times - this topc started, because some pvp players started saying how i am breaking their pvp sesions by not playing in open. And that i am plaing without the "excitement" thus playing in a wrong manner xd.
And what kind of modifications would you actually implement, if i may ask?

 

[MadSinUN]

Indeed. And it's not my intention to do that. It's exactly about everyone being happy.

But as i saida few times - this topc started, because some pvp players started saying how i am breaking their pvp sesions by not playing in open. And that i am plaing without the "excitement" thus playing in a wrong manner xd.
And what kind of modifications would you actually implement, if i may ask?

These complaints make sense. Since there are Pve players who also complain about Pvp players for breaking their Pve style of play. The difference is that Pve players have tools to counteract, and Pvp players do not have such tools. If Fdev had described the concept of open mode and the principle orientation of the game to Pve mode as accurately as possible at the very beginning of the development of this part of the game. Now there would be outrage among the players. Maybe some people wouldn't even buy it.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

If you know the Elite Galaxy (the lay out, and the inner workings) the chances of getting intercepted by a human aggressor is actually quite small, very small, extremely small.
Most people you meet are just going about their own business.

In my opinion the real piracy players are not a problem at all. They are extremely cool and fun to have in an open multiplayer world like Elite. They have some sort of piracy code they play by. These players are social players. They do not do it for the credits (obviously as they do not make big bucks), but they are pirates for the social interaction. I think that is awesome and it really adds to the experience of the Open gameplay. If such a pirate catches you he will most likely demand an affordable contribution to his piracy efforts. I have watched many of such videos, and it is all done in a positive spirit
Piracy Players are not gankers, or griefers, or bullies. They do not wish to have fun at the cost of yours. They are a very healthy, positive addition to the game.

Gankers or griefers do want to have fun at you expense. Their entire goal is to have fun at your expense. This is the mindset of anti-social behavior. This is completely different from what I consider to be true piracy role playing. Griefers/gankers want to ruin your fun. They are like sickly parasites. They substract from the game. Their interaction is always very negative and very unhealthy for the game. If you watch their videos, you can observe a stark difference when compared to true piracy players. These vids ooze a negative unhealthy atmosphere that is in line with their bullying, griefing behaviour. It is truly disgusting.

The biggest problem for a miner/trader is... how to distinguish between a true pirate roleplayer and a griefer. Most will not take the risk, rightly so.
And that is why griefers/gankers are unhealthy for the game. They destroy trust.

While I wouldn’t waste time thinking about the motives behind ganking, I absolutely agree that they are bad for business, which is why I am campaigning for a stronger C&P system with much heavier penalties for killing. A good pirate will normally only ever kill by mistake. The biggest problem of all are the gankers who don’t role play in any way but call themselves pirates. I only do piracy for the challenge and social interaction, the gankers need to be called out, as do the scaremongers on the forums who like to tell everyone that they get ganked as soon as they log into the game.