Why is 'space legs' so technically difficult?

[KevinMillican]

That's just Frontier's excuse for not releasing a space legs DLC for four years. There's enough games that show interesting gameplay with EVA such as Mass Effect and Hellion.

They don't need an excuse - it's always been a nice-to-have, not part of the intended core gameplay.
If it is ever implemented then it would change the whole nature of the game.

If they do so, I'd prefer they do it in stages with meaningful gameplay, eg. a pressure suit for moving within alien structures and interacting with equipment, rather than just allowing us to move around for the sake of it. I'd really hate for ED just to become another FPS which seems to be what some players are wanting.

 

[Frank]

So i appreciate having had so many responses. But i don't feel anyone has really given a satisfactory answer. Yes the universe is big, but it's procedurally generated. Walking around on one planet is the same as another. I get the gameplay thing but there's minimal gameplay for everything. You could just do everything you do with an SRV on foot. Attack bases with a rifle and shoot down skimmers (or npc human guards). That's basic stuff that any developer should be able to do.

That said, i bought a Krait and that rear door looks way more detailed than i've seen on other ships so i'm starting to think it *may* be coming shortly. Of course, that remains to be seen though.

I'm afraid most of us here can't give you a satisfactory answer. Maybe the length of this thread will encourage a Frontier spokesman to answer in an official capacity. But in the meantime a bit of idle speculation is fun.

Yes Frontier do add more detail than necessary to their models as they do have an eye to the future. It's the reason why the VR hack they used when the game was still in development looked so amazing. I'm sure that the extra detail is there for space legs, and I'm fairly sure that those 1st person snippets in the Krait video were tantalising teasers which showed that there are people who are working on space legs. I'm also sure that space legs are a long way off.

It's all to do with priorities. Elite: Dangerous is a spaceship flying game. They are going to concentrate on that aspect before they move on to space legs. Yes it'd be nice if the more nefarious dealings in the game could take place in a seedy bar, but at the moment I'm happy for those options to appear in the stations options panel. It is slightly immersion breaking, but then when it comes down to it, Elite is just a game.

 

[VR Murgle]

snip there just isn't really anything to actually DO with a biped. snip

Except there is!

Compare the following:

1. Flying around watching a wreck through the canopy.

or

Making your way hand over hand through the derelict, careful not the tear your suit, seeing the bodies of the crew floating around you.


2. Scooping up a can marked: "personal effects".

or

Entering a room and find a necklace in some drawer.


3. Driving your SRV outside an outpost scanning data points.

or

Walking through the abandoned corridors looking for clues as to what happened, puzzling together the story through personal logs.


4. Driving trough a Thargoid base.

or

Walking through a Thargoid base.


5. Unlocking engineers after getting a text message.

or

Running into someone in a seedy dockside bar who offers to set up a meeting with someone who might be able to do you a favour, for a price...

There's plenty to do, we just don't have the legs to do it.

 

[Frank]

Which is fair enough. Consensus seems to ne that it isn't that technically difficult but there are other reasons for not having done it yet. I'm just a little frustrated with reasons coming from FDev like 'it's equivalent to creating a whole new game'. It isn't at all. It's certainly a material development but the universe and background mechanics are all there. Just be honest if you have prioritised other things over space legs and tell the community if it's not likely to happen at all.

I'm not sure that the consensus is that space legs are easy. It's certainly not something to which I'd concede. At the moment we're are in the middle of the planetary landing roll out. We've got landing on airless moons. The next step will be atmospheres on unpopulated moons. We are still a long way away from populated planets.

I don't know if they'll start rolling out their spacelegs at the same time as they are doing planetary landing but the order might be... walking in spaceships, EVA repairs, walking on stations and/or unpopulated moons, walking down Mainstreet bumping shoulders with thousands of NPCs. Would you be happy enough with just walking around in your spaceship?

 

[z33r0x]

Frontier is a very lazy team. I know how things work, I worked with different projects over the years and I know for a fact that they are lazy.

 

[krylite]

I'm not sure that the consensus is that space legs are easy. It's certainly not something to which I'd concede. At the moment we're are in the middle of the planetary landing roll out. We've got landing on airless moons. The next step will be atmospheres on unpopulated moons. We are still a long way away from populated planets.

I don't think spacelegs are easy either in the context of making it a full featured experience into the ED framework. Just seeing what was in the Krait trailer. All the ships would have to have rooms and bridges detailed and opened up with moving parts for the doors (and that lift). Then expecting walking around while the ship is in flight. Supercruise, zero acceleration, landed or docked, may be ok, but sudden g's in normal flight should be dangerous to crew standing about not strapped in seats. Then using 'mag' shoes, or featuring zero-g floating. Well maybe the flightsuits could be considered having advanced mag fields that help stabilizing with help from the ship floors and walls.

Yes, very basic spacelegs could probably work sooner with just going out on the current airless planetoids (interesting to see how it would account for the different gravities on different planetoids) instead of by SRV., then walking back to the door, and a fadeout transition back into a walkable (when docked/landed only) bridge, but that would probably be it for now. ( That doesn't mean of course that FD would stop working on spacelegs, just that the basic spacelegs first step would be the only part ready in the game at that time. ) I wouldn't mind seeing that first step by the end of the year or next year, but there's a lot of other things to prioritize as usual for FD.

 

[killminster]

I think you've misread what I've been saying. I don't expect FD to actually develop anything meaningful to go with space legs. I just want to walk around in my ship, sit down and interact with consoles, and occasionally leave the ship with a laser pistol or rifle the same as I would do with the SRV. I don't expect any real gameplay to go with it....

Ok, I think it's generally accepted that technically space legs are relatively simple to implement and it's the making it a meaningful, compelleing etc. experience that's the harder part.

But even with the most basic outline of it described above seems like an incredible amount of bucks for very little bang.

When people say "I just want to walk around in my ship..." that's not one ship; that is, as it stands today, 30 odd unique ship interiors (and possibly quite a few more by the time space legs does arrive) ranging from about the size of a house to absolutely huge that need to be created plus damage models for every interior... my mind is already starting to boggle.

When I look at the amazing job that has been done with the Krait cockpit (I think probably the best in the game as of now, great job FD) extending that amount of work and attention to detail to the interior of every ship seems like a monumental task all on its own, and that's just for walking around in, we haven't even got into adding any kind of interactivity or gameplay to it yet.

Doing all of this and not adding "any real gameplay to go with it" just seems like a total waste of time IMO.

 

[Leadfoot]

Considering how much grind I've done in the SRV I would probably actually do that sort of grind if we had space legs.

Also can the Laser of A Thousand Truths be Engineered?

Of course. But the downside is that it can only be engineered to the Laser Of A Thousand and Ten Truths so it's not really worth it. Makes one hell of a hole in whatever it's aimed at, though.

 

[M00ka]

Ok, I think it's generally accepted that technically space legs are relatively simple to implement and it's the making it a meaningful, compelleing etc. experience that's the harder part.

But even with the most basic outline of it described above seems like an incredible amount of bucks for very little bang.

When people say "I just want to walk around in my ship..." that's not one ship; that is, as it stands today, 30 odd unique ship interiors (and possibly quite a few more by the time space legs does arrive) ranging from about the size of a house to absolutely huge that need to be created plus damage models for every interior... my mind is already starting to boggle.

When I look at the amazing job that has been done with the Krait cockpit (I think probably the best in the game as of now, great job FD) extending that amount of work and attention to detail to the interior of every ship seems like a monumental task all on its own, and that's just for walking around in, we haven't even got into adding any kind of interactivity or gameplay to it yet.

Doing all of this and not adding "any real gameplay to go with it" just seems like a total waste of time IMO.

Full agree with you. For a community that seems to be made up solely of highly competent programmers with years in the gaming industry, a lot vastly underestimate the amount of work that is involved in space legs.

Lets just take about what everyone seems to want, as a starting point - some here have even stated it is simple to do - walking around your ship. Yep, the cockpits are ready, that much is evident. And as Killminster said above, every ship will need to be completely modelled. Anything less will result in the same here crying for Space Legs to continue crying that if they can walk around their cockpit, they want access to the entire interior of the ship.

Now lets take this one step further - this community will expect, nay demand - that what they see inside their ship matches the configuration of the ship, right down to the number and type of cargo containers in the hold. If there are view ports they will expect to see the exterior of their ship, not a generic ship, but THEIR SHIP - correct paint job, correct weapons (if visible), correct decals. Anything less will just result in yet another forum meltdown and cries of incompetence on the part of FD.

I won't even start on the station interiors, that will be a mammoth task. Lets not forget that this is the community that got their right royal knickers in a twist when they found out that icy airless planets looked that same - go figure lol

 

[Leadfoot]

The real problem is, how many people are going to pay for such a basic DLC (I would), unless it's stuff packed with new gameplay? Decent piracy update, hidden black market gameplay, first person shooter, decent Multiplayer connection for online bars where CMDRs can meet 'n greet, stealing ships and shooting dino's.
This is where you're talking about a whole game DLC that could plug into ED but also be a stand alone IP they could sell as 'Adventures in the Elite Dangerous Worlds' with a 20 hour storyline and RNG questlines to bulk the gameplay out (ala Bethesda).

The first adventure could be investigating a distress signal, suddenly finding your ship out of control via some odd type of energy beam, you crash on a planet where you have to find this "thing" that's keeping your ship powered down and unable to lift off. There's something that looks like a settlement 2 or 3 km away. Don't forget your laser pistol.

The planet, by the way, is where we bury the dead now. Older pilots refer to it as "Bleak Falls Barrow" based on some obscure game reference, the origin of which is lost to time

They say, mind you, that the dead have a hard time staying that way on this strange world.

 

[M00ka]

Fair enough. But then why have FDev not said this? It's complete conjecture to suggest this is the real reason for them not doing it. Perhaps correct but it isn't the question i asked.

Just a question: If FDev did state the reason why Space Legs haven't appeared yet, would you believe them?

 

[c00ky1970]

Except there is!

Compare the following:

1. Flying around watching a wreck through the canopy.

or

Making your way hand over hand through the derelict, careful not the tear your suit, seeing the bodies of the crew floating around you.

The technical challenge is not FPS view but the hand over hand technique and collision on a human scale that needs to be created, they need to develop a method to record "scratch" damage, and then add a healing method, add an inventory for the pilot, add a GUI for inventory, add a method to apply healing technique, create animatins for healing, create noises for healing, create noises for hand over hand, create ambient noises.

2. Scooping up a can marked: "personal effects".

or

Entering a room and find a necklace in some drawer.

Again its not FPS view, its room scale maps, doors, how to track them being op[ened or closed, containers within the room, how to track contents, use inventory (must work for both picking up necklace as well a getting suit sealant healing), noises for entering room, for opening drawer. Are we having sneaking in Elite, if so how s that provided? Are we having picking locks, if so how is this performed? Is there a crime associated with collecting teh necklace, if so how is it detected/applied?

3. Driving your SRV outside an outpost scanning data points.

or

Walking through the abandoned corridors looking for clues as to what happened, puzzling together the story through personal logs.

Again its generation of corridors, pure RNG or persistant, ambient noises, personal scanner, scanner gui, audio log gui.

4. Driving trough a Thargoid base.

or

Walking through a Thargoid base.

so this is the simplest to implement as it just sounds like creating an FPS view, but what if you annoy one of the denizens, or try and touch a thargoid probe etc.

5. Unlocking engineers after getting a text message.

or

Running into someone in a seedy dockside bar who offers to set up a meeting with someone who might be able to do you a favour, for a price...

There's plenty to do, we just don't have the legs to do it.

So again its not walking about, its the NPC interaction - voice or text or both, how do you determine success or failure, is it automatic to get the contact, or does Elite need to introduce RPG style characteristics ? If so what? How are these determined, how are these improved, how are these affected by your injured state, legal state etc?

So rolling out Elite-Feet Space-Legs is not just changing point of view there is alot of other stuff that needs to eb taklen into account.

Doing it just for vanity sake is a waste of Dev time.

Doing it the way you describe - which I would love! Is not a simple flick a switch engagement.

So you then have to turn to the economics of the game, if Elite-feet is released it would have cost money to develop, which will require recouping from players, so a £30 DLC? £60 DLC? If they give just what you describe would you be happy, or would you then be clamouring for more? Also not everyone will buy this DLC, so will they get enough to cover the development? Hopefully...

In the mean time the main game still requires development, I would much that gets addressed first rather than the Unicorn's tears that is Elite Feet.

 

[killminster]

Fair enough. But then why have FDev not said this? It's complete conjecture to suggest this is the real reason for them not doing it. Perhaps correct but it isn't the question i asked.

I agree, anything that is said on this, other than from the developers themselves is all conjecture and speculation, but in the absence of any concrete statements about the matter from FD that is all these threads will ever be, whatever side of the fence you are on about this and any other subjects as well such as atmospheric landings.

As for answering your question I was quoting the other post as an example rather than trying to address the point directly to you, hope that makes my post a bit clearer.

 

[M00ka]

In all the threads on Space Legs, there is one aspect of it I haven't seen discussed. So SL's drops and we can now wander around to our heart's content, life is good in the Elite Universe. But what happens if you die, after all this is a dangerous environment after all, even if their isn't FPS battles (COD is Space), there are enough other dangers that losing one's life is a distinct possibility.

Since we are outside of our ship, our handy Escape Pod won't be available will it. Maybe it will be the handwavium magic that happens when we die in the SRV (we are supposed to be physically inside of the SRV aren't we?). Just respawning back on the ship will seem a little lame and not current with the present Lore.

So how will death be handled once we are free from the confines of the ship???

 

[Avago Earo]

It's a bit complicated. Gravity for one thing.

[video=youtube_share;yIefM54bRL0]https://youtu.be/yIefM54bRL0[/video]

 

[dannysquid]

The tricky bit really isn't having walking animatins.

1) You'd need to make these look cool in everything from zero g to 11g, with floating mechanics and bouncing mechanics and multiple characters floating/bouncing around in a confined space. This sort of thing hasn't been done all that much so there's a whole load of R&D to make this happen.
2) Elite is enormous. What do you fill all that empty space with? Millions of procedural fetch quests? If it's about boarding parties and pirate attacks there are a whole load of questions about griefing, character death etc...
3) Making it all work in multiplayer (a) at all and (b) without creating such a vast quantity of weird emergent behaviour and unpredictable edge cases that it's impossible to debug.

 

[krylite]

Fair enough. But then why have FDev not said this? It's complete conjecture to suggest this is the real reason for them not doing it. Perhaps correct but it isn't the question i asked.

My take and "conjecture" would be that the spacelegs they have planned is far from ready, even the initial minimal stage where every ship's bridge would be walkable. And they usually make announcements when the items announced seem to be able to be finished for the next year. So if some initial stage of spacelegs would be ready by sometime up to the end of 2019, I would think they would wait until near the end of this year to announce it. And also why would they announce early and put undue pressure on the devs? I mean geez, the salt of even minor non-game breaking bugs or certain perceived inconveniences in the game are often equated on the forum to drastic incompetence or another state of demise of the game.

Since we are outside of our ship, our handy Escape Pod won't be available will it. Maybe it will be the handwavium magic that happens when we die in the SRV (we are supposed to be physically inside of the SRV aren't we?). Just respawning back on the ship will seem a little lame and not current with the present Lore.

So how will death be handled once we are free from the confines of the ship???

Fun to speculate about. I would hope it's similar to the inconvenience of a rebuy. Perhaps with an rpg flavor of being knocked unconscious or falling unconscious due to trauma and wounds. Then of course some fade out and handwavium like some assumed rescue by authorities. So you find yourself in the special hospital at the last station or so you docked. Then there are the fees of accident insurance, medical fees, limb replacement fees (In "Docking is Diffucult" ED book, it was mentioned severed limbs could be organically regrown already) etc. Ship recovery and unlocking fee etc. Just one way of handling this. Interesting to see what FD will come up with. I agree, it shouldn't be an easy respawn in the ship or worse considered holo the whole time.

 

[ilo]

I don't get it. It's not as if walking around with a first-person view ground-breaking in the video game industry. I would have thought by 2018 most developers would be able to do it quite easily.

It is ok if you don't understand, we wont judge you.

 

[ilo]

Neither do my mates who work for Rock Star (one of whom is fairly senior) when i've spoken to them about it. Are you going to judge their lack of knowledge as well?

http://more2.starfall.com/n/level-a/learn-to-read/load.htm?f&redir=www

you can ask your friends at rockstar why they haven't introduced 0g in any of their games yet, I don't think it is that difficult, just removing one force. I said, clearly, we won't judge you, so please, refrain from starting a war I didn't ask for.

 

[ilo]

This thread has proven to me that FDev have done am awful job of explaining why they are taking this long to introduce certain developments. I'm sure there are reasons why they can't release it yet but no-one actually knows the answer. Everyone is guessing and making it up as they go along. No-one has been able to give anything close to an answer that actually resolves the question. That's fine - i don't know either. But the combination of wild conjecture with some just being rude and confrontational is a slightly disheartening insight into much of the ED player base. The fact there have been people prepared to disagree or offer thoughts respectfully does instils some faith though.

In summary, no-one knows why and ED won't tell us.

I would have thought by 2018 most developers would be able to do it quite easily.

< notice the sarcasm?

It is not that your OP is respectful enough to talk about other's, maybe if you ask nicely to one of the main developers.. oh wait, someone did and the answer was given.