Why is there more malice aimed at people wanting mining the way it was than towards the people who exploited it?

[SgtMajRaz]

This perplexes me. In a lot of threads I see people who are in favor of returning mining to being a bit more profitable than it is now being heavily criticized.

Personally, I am fine with a nerf, but I think it should've been a sell price nerf rather than messing with the content of rocks. For instance, in a triple LTD I got more Tritium than I did LTDs. 63 Tritium and 34 LTD to be exact in mining at about 2 hours. Either way, I believe the sledgehammer on mining came down too hard and that's why there are "unintended" effects happening. Yes mining was broken and needed to be fixed, but the exploiters made it worse ten-fold.

So why the hate towards people than still want to be profitable in a game where the grind is brought to the extreme with just about everything you do? Is it just easier to criticize these people because they can be identified and those that exploited mining to game breaking proportions can't really be identified? The nerf hurts everyone. Especially new players still sitting in their Sidewinders. People are being told to enjoy the grind, find other ways to make money, or just go have fun "flying around", yet the exploiters go unpunished, made away with billions, and simply continue on their way while those that played fair get the reap the aftermath and then get criticized for being angry about it.

I remember in the Division 2, there was a DPS exploit that allowed solo players to finish missions in minutes that took a team of 4 to finish in hours. The punishment for this exploit? Accounts got rolled back for weeks. Gear was taken away, credits were taken away, and you started back before the exploit was known even if some of that gear or money was earned the right away.

 

[Haradrim]

People just grow tired of mining making way more than other professions combined. Even without the exploit. People feel forced to mine and when they don't want to, the game might get boring for them.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

Other professions need to be brought way up

 

[Old Duck]

I can only speak for myself, and my problem with the game is that new players can go from Sidewinder to Anaconda in days, and then get a fleet carrier a couple of weeks later. This is way too fast. It's like going from being in rags in Helgen to being level 100 with all shouts unlocked in a couple of days in Skyrim, and then unlocking all the content in the DLCs a week later.

But on the other hand, I do think that credits should scale with level in some regard. As combat rank increases, I should be offered more and more lucrative bounties. As my trade rank increases, I should be offered better trade deals. As I rank up in exploration, I should be offered better returns on my interstellar finds. While this is a bit gimmicky, it's also not. I can't walk into my police headquarters today and demand they give me a list of all the million dollar bounties, but if I was a famous and renowned bounty hunter, then I probably could. Same goes with various job contracts - we start small (flipping burgers) and slowly work our way up to CEO, who doesn't work any harder than the burger-flipper, but his reputation earns him a much bigger salary.

This way there's a curve to progression, meaning the longer you play, the more you progress. Mining as it is bypasses this. For fun I built a non-engineered basic mining Adder for real cheap, and in an hour or two of mining I had enough credits to buy a Python. That's just nuts, and it's totally contrary to the game Elite was originally published as. Just look at the advanced maintenance tab to see what type of game ED was originally meant to be.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

Other professions need to be brought way up

Understood, but when exactly do people think this will happen? I'm fairly new to ED by about 4 months. How long have people been asking for a balance in credit rewards for other professions? I keep hearing that Fdev will find a way, nerf after nerf, but how long have people been waiting to believe that a solution will be found?

 

[Cmdr JThar Birelle]

So why the hate

Welcome to ED.

It doesn't matter what the subject is there will be people on many sides all touting their opinions. Some of these people will be more passionate than the others and it becomes very heated very quickly. Unfortunately, when this happens, the toxic parts of the community can be seen more clearly than those that aren't (there are more of us that aren't toxic).

That's not to say there should be no discussion but you need to step back sometimes to see beyond the salt being spread. But it is difficult.

Is it just easier to criticize these people

The internet in a nutshell.

Like I said the saltiest of us are the loudest but also the smallest group.

yet the exploiters go unpunished, made away with billions, and simply continue on their way while those that played fair get the reap the aftermath and then get criticized for being angry about it.

I'd love to see the nuclear explosion in this forum if there was a punishment for making money from an exploit thas has been in place for years with the full knowledge of the devs.

Something needed to happen. Was this the right move?? Probably not and for more reasons than the fact that it borked the tritium deposits. The markets are very unbalanced. That's where the problem has always been. It has never been in the actual rocks. I don't mind grinding for credits but increasing the amount of time to fill my hold? That's wrong.

 

[Florenus]

So why the hate towards people than still want to be profitable in a game where the grind is brought to the extreme with just about everything you do?

I don't know about hate, but "grind" is what this game is about.
You play as a pilot who works doing various things, earning money and gaining means to improve his tools to do those things.
Mining shouldn't be super easy way to fund whatever else you might want to do. But it was. It was so bad that you could pretty much skip through whole progression path in one evening by mining alone.
People get frustrated at those who prefer things to remain unbalanced.

 

[gorankar]

This again.
The actual Egg/SLF method only allowed you to make around twice what you could have legitimately. At 1.7M a ton for LTD, I was pulling 500M an hour just mapped mining. Meanwhile, you could get closer to 900M-1B an hour using the SLF/Egg method. The profits were massive either way.
Without the SLF/Egg method, these miners would have still been multi billionaires in a matter of hours.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

I can only speak for myself, and my problem with the game is that new players can go from Sidewinder to Anaconda in days, and then get a fleet carrier a couple of weeks later. This is way too fast. It's like going from being in rags in Helgen to being level 100 with all shouts unlocked in a couple of days in Skyrim, and then unlocking all the content in the DLCs a week later.

But on the other hand, I do think that credits should scale with level in some regard. As combat rank increases, I should be offered more and more lucrative bounties. As my trade rank increases, I should be offered better trade deals. As I rank up in exploration, I should be offered better returns on my interstellar finds. While this is a bit gimmicky, it's also not. I can't walk into my police headquarters today and demand they give me a list of all the million dollar bounties, but if I was a famous and renowned bounty hunter, then I probably could. Same goes with various job contracts - we start small (flipping burgers) and slowly work our way up to CEO, who doesn't work any harder than the burger-flipper, but his reputation earns him a much bigger salary.

This way there's a curve to progression, meaning the longer you play, the more you progress. Mining as it is bypasses this. For fun I built a non-engineered basic mining Adder for real cheap, and in an hour or two of mining I had enough credits to buy a Python. That's just nuts, and it's totally contrary to the game Elite was originally published as. Just look at the advanced maintenance tab to see what type of game ED was originally meant to be.

So here is my issue with this. Mods have turned Skyrim into a sandbox where you can start out how powerful and rich you want to be. Why? Because Skyrim has been out for ages. People never consider that there also needs to be a balance in leveling for a game that's been out for people that have a 6 year head start and years worth of a gold rush. It is imperative that new players get afforded the same opportunities, and god forbid, maybe even a bump to get them where they need to be so they can experience something like Open play in a few weeks rather than 8 months and being ganked the first 5 minutes in Open because they haven't grinded for a year to get where everyone else is.

 

[CMDR Tony]

Other professions need to be brought way up

Or mining brought down to the level of these other professions. That seems more reasonable.

 

[Haradrim]

So here is my issue with this. Mods have turned Skyrim into a sandbox where you can start out how powerful and rich you want to be. Why? Because Skyrim has been out for ages. People never consider that there also needs to be a balance in leveling for a game that's been out for people that have a 6 year head start and years worth of a gold rush. It is imperative that new players get afforded the same opportunities, and god forbid, maybe even a bump to get them where they need to be so they can experience something like Open play in a few weeks rather than 8 months and being ganked the first 5 minutes in Open because they haven't grinded for a year to get where everyone else is.

You also need to consider that this is technically a multiplayer game, even if you don't play it like one. Breaking the balance and treating it like a singleplayer game is unfair to those when you can affect their game world.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

This again.
The actual Egg/SLF method only allowed you to make around twice what you could have legitimately. At 1.7M a ton for LTD, I was pulling 500M an hour just mapped mining. Meanwhile, you could get closer to 900M-1B an hour using the SLF/Egg method. The profits were massive either way.
Without the SLF/Egg method, these miners would have still been multi billionaires in a matter of hours.

The addition of FC's and their bottomless pit of a cargo hold could perhaps make people have 100 billion in a day, right? Just exploit and keep filling your FC hold until a 1.7 mil profit rolled around and just make round trips from the FC to the station. I think it would be VERY easy to catch the people that did this.

 

[Old Duck]

So here is my issue with this. Mods have turned Skyrim into a sandbox where you can start out how powerful and rich you want to be. Why? Because Skyrim has been out for ages. People never consider that there also needs to be a balance in leveling for a game that's been out for people that have a 6 year head start and years worth of a gold rush.

Skyrim is a single-player game. ED is an MMO. Sure, I had a "heads start", but I had to play six months to go from Sidewinder to Anaconda, so why should you come along and basically get a free Anaconda, relatively speaking, because you're late to the party?

BTW, if you think owning your dream ship will spare you from ganking, you are sorely mistaken. I've defeated noobs flying FDLs while I myself was in a humble Eagle. Sure, you can fast track ship progression, but you can't fast track piloting skill. Ironically I've never had any interest in ganking new players in Sidewinders, but new players in Corvettes, Cutters, and FDLs - now that's tempting, especially in light of this thread.

Now where did I put my purple hair dye?

 

[SgtMajRaz]

You also need to consider that this is technically a multiplayer game, even if you don't play it like one. Breaking the balance and treating it like a singleplayer game is unfair to those when you can affect their game world.

ED is not the first MMO. Other games make it work.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

Skyrim is a single-player game. ED is an MMO. Sure, I had a "heads start", but I had to play six months to go from Sidewinder to Anaconda, so why should you come along and basically get a free Anaconda, relatively speaking, because you're late to the party?

BTW, if you think owning your dream ship will spare you from ganking, you are sorely mistaken. I've defeated noobs flying FDLs while I myself was in a humble Eagle. Sure, you can fast track ship progression, but you can't fast track piloting skill. Ironically I've never had any interest in ganking new players in Sidewinders, but new players in Corvettes, Cutters, and FDLs - now that's tempting, especially in light of this thread.

Now where did I put my purple hair dye?

I'm very glad developers and communities of other MMO's don't share this same mentality of a game that's half a decade old. It's not enough that others should make it big, they need to suffer the same as I did as well.

Ganking new players in bigger ships? Cool story bro. So edgy.

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

I wouldn't say it was hate, I would say that after a year long run on massively inflated prices, it's funny to see people getting mad about it as though nothing was wrong before. A bit like watching the Yuppies' in the late 80's when out all went wrong and they were crying into their Filofaxes. Maybe that is just my spiteful side coming out.

Personally, I am fine with a nerf, but I think it should've been a sell price nerf rather than messing with the content of rocks.

The problem there is, if you just flatline all the prices, then you have no special commodities. Water is as valuable as LTDs, that seems silly. LTD's are supposed to be rare, hence the high price.

Realistically, (I'm making the numbers up because I don't know), if your FC can carry 25k ton of cargo, being able to fill that with LTD's is silly. Hardly rare at all then. So they should retain a higher price than water but be rare to find. So as you go out in your carrier, over the course of a month, you might be able to make a billion with LTD's, not one session or a couple of nights. What people seem to want, be screaming for, is for them to be very common and very valuable. Makes no sense.

If you like the gameplay of Deep Core Mining, then it doesn't;t really matter what the profits are, does it? So long as it pays a reasonable amount, you're having fun. It's the same for trade, combat and exploring. None of them are 500m an hour sports but loads of people love them and do them regardless of th profit margin, why should mining be any different?

I've seen a few people reference the noob, pretty much stating that they will all leave the game or that they face a grind now. Look at it this way though, right up until the peak of mining, the entire player base had gone through that. No one has the figures but some stayed, some went. I'm guessing the majority stuck with it. Why all of a sudden does that matter? If we all did it and managed it, why won't they? Frankly it rather condescending to think loads of new players won't be able to handle what anyone who purchased the game over a year ago, went through.

In a more compassionate argument against huge mining profits bringing accelerated progress, I think the new player loses out of something quite amazing. I posted once on here about the magical part of the game when you're about 3/4 up the way of the steep learning curve, you're not dying every time you leave a station, you've learned about some aspects of the game, you're on this intermediate level, it is simply one of the coolest levels to be in on this game. By leaving mining in as it was, people by-pass that, they get the idea, are encouraged to believe, that the game is about, getting out of a Sidewinder and into an FC as fast as possible, You're robbing them, IMO, of a great experience, a real learning curve to overcome that results in a feeling of achievement that (again in my opinion), is unlikely to be found, sitting in a ring blasting rocks all night.

 

[Old Duck]

I'm very glad developers and communities of other MMO's don't share this same mentality of a game that's half a decade old.

So you're telling me that Elder Scrolls Online will let you fast track to an end-game character overnight because you are joining the game late and it isn't fair that people who have been playing ESO for years are ahead of you?

I'm beginning to wonder if you are a half decade old...

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

Understood, but when exactly do people think this will happen? I'm fairly new to ED by about 4 months. How long have people been asking for a balance in credit rewards for other professions? I keep hearing that Fdev will find a way, nerf after nerf, but how long have people been waiting to believe that a solution will be found?

Well, we've been asking for it for about 6 years. So... Soon™?

Or mining brought down to the level of these other professions. That seems more reasonable.

The other professions are far too low, and don't scale well to the ship you have. Combat is the biggest culprit.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

So you're telling me that Elder Scrolls Online will let you fast track to an end-game character overnight because you are joining the game late and it isn't fair that people who have been playing ESO for years are ahead of you?

I'm beginning to wonder if you are a half decade old...

Most older MMO's have catch up mechanics, up to and including paid character boosts.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

So you're telling me that Elder Scrolls Online will let you fast track to an end-game character overnight because you are joining the game late and it isn't fair that people who have been playing ESO for years are ahead of you?

I'm beginning to wonder if you are a half decade old...

So you're telling me you're not aware that even new players can purchase in-game currency if they want to mitigate a bit of the grind so they can enjoy some perks even if they're a new player?

I'm beginning to wonder why it triggers people so much that others be afforded a bit of a headstart.