Why Not Play Another Game?

[El Grillo]

OK so this got me thinking. Why can't a PG game also incorporate handmade assets? Imagine a PG generated terrain with hills, forests, rivers, mountains, hills, meadows... then add in something that places a POI. For example, you're walking along and come across an old house that unbeknownst to you has a cave system under it. The POI is laid over the PG generated terrain.

In ED, there's no stars going supanova, no planets blow in half. It's pretty much exactly the same but in a slightly different order everywhere you go.

Additional - SC is dead? Haven't really been keeping up with it. It'd be nice to see a release though.

The stuff you mention here doesn't even have to be hand-placed, that can (and should) be done by PG in elite... the game desperately needs it, more variety in environmental assets and more things to discover. Space Engine is a great example of why Elite is so lacking; the former 'game' was made by a lone Russian dude and yet the PG galaxies & system there STILL have more interesting visual features than Elite's! They have comets, aurorae, tiny asteroid moonlets, planetary rings with proper lighting (eh-hem)...

Those you suggest, i really want too; what about planetary nebulas, real accretion disks, embryo molten planets, planets which are so close to their star that one side is permanently molten..

 

[Red Martian]

Everyone is different, and we all want different things. Elite is so massive, it's so enormous, that there's no reason why we can't have things like space legs, atmospheric landings, more stations, strange new worlds, and so on. I loved exploring for the first 30,000 light years, but after a while everything started looking exactly the same. I was no longer looking under every rock to see what was there, because it was 99.9% likely that the RNG would just create something I could see 10 LY from Sol. That's why people say "wide as an ocean, but only an inch deep," because it is accurate. That's why the word "potential" gets thrown around so much. Elite lives on the grand scale, but it's almost completely empty.

Someone mentioned it above (sorry, I can't remember who you are, as this thread is getting larger), but how about a handful of core worlds (at least for each faction) are well developed, with cities you can land in, step out of and visit areas (like pubs, retailers, even a hotel or apartment would be nice). There doesn't have to be many of them, but I love the idea of being out in the black, and coming back to your favorite homeworld after 100,000 light years of travel, and landing in a huge city, seeing the advanced metropolis, the variety of ships and people. It would bring the universe to life like never before.

Yes, yes, Elite isn't Star Citizen, but then Star Citizen isn't even Star Citizen just yet. Whether they know it or not, Elite is carrying the torch for the space sim genre. Other games touch on aspects of the genre, but only Elite scratches the itch of being a pilot in your own ship, and not having to pewpewpew all of the time. I mention Star Citizen so much because it was supposed to be the far superior successor to Freelancer, a game that got so much right but then fell short at the most crucial point. Of course, as usual, the man at the helm gets swallowed up by a grand vision, overspends, overhypes, and will likely underdeliver, and there's no publishing company to rein him in this time.

That's why I get frustrated at the notion I should just play another game. I do play other games, but that doesn't mean my questions, concerns, and desires for this game are invalid. When I want to be a spaceship pilot traveling to other worlds, landing on them, and walking about looking for something unknown, well telling me to play GTA V instead is silly. The other space sim games come close, on some levels, but still miss the mark. It's like everyone dances around a complete space simulator, and focuses on only one aspect of it. Elite's tap dancing right on the line, but won't cross it. That is the frustrating part.

 

[crushdepth]

This - a basic part of most space ship games and ED cannot even handle it. So in a universe that's as cutthroat as ED we're meant to logically believe there are no traders wanting escorts.

Did anyone even try putting more than a seconds thought into the game design?

And yet an on-the-fly contract wing defense of a capital ship was featured in one of the first promo videos (the one with the farragut torpedoing the majestic).

So they have thought about it, question is why hasn't it happened?

 

[Adhock]

Everyone is different, and we all want different things. Elite is so massive, it's so enormous, that there's no reason why we can't have things like space legs, atmospheric landings, more stations, strange new worlds, and so on.

And who says we're not getting them? You think it's that easy to slap together a few lines of code, utter a line of black magic, and then suddenly POOF! everything you could ever want is in Elite Dangerous yesterday?

Then let's see you do it. Pull a KOTOR 2 and give us a player made patch that fixes the game. Where's your Elite Dangerous version of XCOM's "Long War"?

Everything you have mentioned has already been touched on by Frontier which to me means they are giving it serious consideration. It's in the pipe. Just like the Thargoids we know it's coming. We just won't WHEN.

Which is yet another problem of the player base. Everyone enjoys something different but they all want what they enjoy NOW. The "instant gratification" issue. "Feature X is a standard feature of Spaceship games and should have been in the game at launch!"

Yeah, you and 400 other people all demanding the same thing but about 4938 different features. And apparently they all believe that it should be as simple as putting in a new line of code.

What short memories these people have concerning the bugs that plagued those issues and some bugs still plague them today. The more in-depth and complex you make something, the higher the likelihood things will go horribly wrong.

We have planetary landing. We have planet art upgrades. Like winter and the Thargoids, Atmospheric landing is coming.

Sometimes a completely unrelated feature is the first step toward something.

Such as 2.3. Toted as the most useless update of Horizons, just the inclusion of the avatar creator is an indicator of a pilot creator for space legs. One tiny step for Frontier to build on.

And given I'm 2 for 2 on predicting new gaming features out of vague Gal-net articles, I'd keep your eyes peeled.

 

[Red Martian]

And who says we're not getting them? You think it's that easy to slap together a few lines of code, utter a line of black magic, and then suddenly POOF! everything you could ever want is in Elite Dangerous yesterday?

Then let's see you do it. Pull a KOTOR 2 and give us a player made patch that fixes the game. Where's your Elite Dangerous version of XCOM's "Long War"?

Everything you have mentioned has already been touched on by Frontier which to me means they are giving it serious consideration. It's in the pipe. Just like the Thargoids we know it's coming. We just won't WHEN.

Which is yet another problem of the player base. Everyone enjoys something different but they all want what they enjoy NOW. The "instant gratification" issue. "Feature X is a standard feature of Spaceship games and should have been in the game at launch!"

Yeah, you and 400 other people all demanding the same thing but about 4938 different features. And apparently they all believe that it should be as simple as putting in a new line of code.

What short memories these people have concerning the bugs that plagued those issues and some bugs still plague them today. The more in-depth and complex you make something, the higher the likelihood things will go horribly wrong.

We have planetary landing. We have planet art upgrades. Like winter and the Thargoids, Atmospheric landing is coming.

Sometimes a completely unrelated feature is the first step toward something.

Such as 2.3. Toted as the most useless update of Horizons, just the inclusion of the avatar creator is an indicator of a pilot creator for space legs. One tiny step for Frontier to build on.

And given I'm 2 for 2 on predicting new gaming features out of vague Gal-net articles, I'd keep your eyes peeled.

I didn't say we weren't getting them, just that there's no reason why we can't have them. As for whether or not these features are coming any time soon, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Jex =TE=]

I've been out on huge exploration trips and I like it, but I have to be in the mood. I spend more time faffing in asteroids and driving my SRV than honking.

I found the outdoor planter LOL - still need to explore the area I found it in and I found better food too and I'm repopulating the fish I had to eat

And yet an on-the-fly contract wing defense of a capital ship was featured in one of the first promo videos (the one with the farragut torpedoing the majestic).

So they have thought about it, question is why hasn't it happened?

Because the entire KS and marketing video's were a con. Big game hunting me behind and now Braben doesn't even own his own company after selling out and making a killing on his shares - why isn't HE the lead designer btw?

 

[sollisb]

And who says we're not getting them? You think it's that easy to slap together a few lines of code, utter a line of black magic, and then suddenly POOF! everything you could ever want is in Elite Dangerous yesterday?

Then let's see you do it. Pull a KOTOR 2 and give us a player made patch that fixes the game. Where's your Elite Dangerous version of XCOM's "Long War"?

Everything you have mentioned has already been touched on by Frontier which to me means they are giving it serious consideration. It's in the pipe. Just like the Thargoids we know it's coming. We just won't WHEN.

Which is yet another problem of the player base. Everyone enjoys something different but they all want what they enjoy NOW. The "instant gratification" issue. "Feature X is a standard feature of Spaceship games and should have been in the game at launch!"

Yeah, you and 400 other people all demanding the same thing but about 4938 different features. And apparently they all believe that it should be as simple as putting in a new line of code.

What short memories these people have concerning the bugs that plagued those issues and some bugs still plague them today. The more in-depth and complex you make something, the higher the likelihood things will go horribly wrong.

We have planetary landing. We have planet art upgrades. Like winter and the Thargoids, Atmospheric landing is coming.

Sometimes a completely unrelated feature is the first step toward something.

Such as 2.3. Toted as the most useless update of Horizons, just the inclusion of the avatar creator is an indicator of a pilot creator for space legs. One tiny step for Frontier to build on.

And given I'm 2 for 2 on predicting new gaming features out of vague Gal-net articles, I'd keep your eyes peeled.

The avatar and pilot creator are as useful to the game play as a one legged indian in a bottom kicking contest.

Don't give up the day job...

 

[Jex =TE=]

The stuff you mention here doesn't even have to be hand-placed, that can (and should) be done by PG in elite... the game desperately needs it, more variety in environmental assets and more things to discover. Space Engine is a great example of why Elite is so lacking; the former 'game' was made by a lone Russian dude and yet the PG galaxies & system there STILL have more interesting visual features than Elite's! They have comets, aurorae, tiny asteroid moonlets, planetary rings with proper lighting (eh-hem)...

Those you suggest, i really want too; what about planetary nebulas, real accretion disks, embryo molten planets, planets which are so close to their star that one side is permanently molten..

It's funny how often people say "use your imagination" and when that's shown in dozens of examples like this one, everyone goes quiet. How many brilliant suggestions do these forums need to generate for FDev to keep ignoring and giving us brilliant stuff like MC...

 

[Jex =TE=]

And who says we're not getting them? You think it's that easy to slap together a few lines of code, utter a line of black magic, and then suddenly POOF! everything you could ever want is in Elite Dangerous yesterday?

Then let's see you do it. Pull a KOTOR 2 and give us a player made patch that fixes the game. Where's your Elite Dangerous version of XCOM's "Long War"?

Given a team of 100 developers and what, 6-7 years (not to mention the 3 decades prior with the first 3 Elite games and Planet and PG galaxy already worked out) are you saying that you're the only one here that couldn't do better?

 

[geministatic]

Maybe because I have a problem with playing so many games and what not that usually what ends up happening is I just end up back at Elite Dangerous. I think ED is not a game that's meant to be "fun", but it's a game with a lot of meaning or have the potential to have a lot of meaning. I end up going back because of the immersion. I think there's no other game that's this immersive, in my opinion, and if there is... it's janky or there's a gameplay issue I really don't like. I'm saying this because I have so much gaming A.D.D... considering I play a lot of fighting games and other genres.. I'm not one of those people that have 1,000+ hours in any game at all... my most was 290 on a fighting game and well.. let's just say that E beat it finally. I love this game, but I can understand how this game can get boring sometimes and how somethings can work better... but I think what keeps me going is the fact that.. there's just no other game like it.

 

[Old Duck]

You think it's that easy to slap together a few lines of code, utter a line of black magic, and then suddenly POOF! everything you could ever want is in Elite Dangerous yesterday?

Vladimir Romanyuk did it. Not sure if he used black magic or not, though considering what he's achieved as one individual, I think he used some sort of magic.

 

[Tarquin the bad]

Have SC, have NMS, play ED. It's an initial thing

 

[Ralph Vargr]

1) I do play other games.

2) ED is frustrating because it has so many amazing features, but it falls short because of a lack of development organization and resources. Everything is shoestring. P2P, micro instances, repeated assets, limited player-specific relevance, no structured wvw/pvp, over-reliance on RNG and procedureal generation. They've done a great job with the resources they had, but this ain't no triple A title.

3) There is a clear passion for this genre. I grew up on the first Star Trek series, and conventions went on for years before movies and sequel series developed. People still speak in Klingon. Pretty crazy stuff. Watching Kirk fight with Abraham Lincoln next to him is pretty dopey, but people will go through a ton to get their space opera fix.

On Target!

We're Space Addicts.

When you look at the overall game, and the long standing complaints, these do nothing to address those complaints. From 'modes', to grind, to poor PVP implementation, etc. etc. none of these issues are addressed...because the devs have built the game to their idea of what a game is supposed to be...and these 'problems' are seen as features.

They have sealed the bunker.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

You raised 5 interesting points by your number of paragraphs:

1. I believe FDev is using the limited resources to intro new content in the hope we shall ignore the problems that majority of players have avoided.

2. Any company welcomes feedback except they are not obliged to act upon them if it's not in the direction of their product's development.

3. Being different and distinguishable from your competitors is one of the reasons why this game still has a significant and loyal player base.

4. This is where most of the community's contention lies and I believe FDev has to take some responsibility. I believe they may have over-promised some things.

5. Ditto with paragraph 4 except FDev has grown into a bigger company producing more products with more stakeholders hence experiencing "growing pains" - its resources and leaders have not grown or adapted as fast (spread thin)

Just my 2 cents.

Rats. Out of rep.

 

[El Grillo]

Vladimir Romanyuk did it. Not sure if he used black magic or not, though considering what he's achieved as one individual, I think he used some sort of magic.

This is it. There are so many examples of games where the gameplay problems Frontier seem unable to overcome in Elite... have been overcome. Space Engine is a great example regarding exploration/variety of space environments (& making those environments look just absolutely awesome).
The only major problem Elite is facing, that hasn't been demonstrably solved elsewhere, is implementing these missing gameplay solutions in the ProcGen galaxy system Frontier has made. Like, maybe that system is actually just terribly difficult to implement good varied gameplay loops in. I'm not sure what would be worse; that the system which underpins the whole of the game engine is fundamentally broken in this way... or that Frontier really is just so oblivious/incompetent that they haven't worked out that what is missing in Elite is decently varied and interesting gameplay loops.

 

[Rakaposhi]

What if I don't want to play another game? What if there really is no other game? You know exactly what I mean: you step away, but then you itch to log back in hoping something else will catch your attention. Elite is addicting, because the potential is right there, no other game comes close.

I think you've answered your own question. "No other game comes close" is quite a compelling reason to not play another game.

I see a lot of people posting about how this or that could be improved or tweaked or what new features are absolute must-haves to prevent the game dying, but sometimes you have to look at it from the other direction.

Instead of wondering why Elite Dangerous can't be even better, sometimes it's nice to think about how FDev have pretty much threaded a needle to get such compelling and complete gameplay into a single package. And before you pick up on my use of the word "complete", please be aware that this is in comparison to literally anything else on the market.

Yes of course ED can be improved, it's very rare that anything can't be. But before issuing lists of stuff to "save" Elite, do consider that they've nailed Space Simulation in a way that no one else has, and even if another game comes along to beat ED, it'll only be better because ED set the bar so high. From my perspective, it's hats off to FDev.

 

[Trellek]

I admit to not reading through all 15 pages, but I did not see Evochron Mercenary, nor Starpoint Gemini 2 mentioned as alternatives. Both a bit dated, one very dated, but very enjoyable.

I agree with the OP. I have stopped playing a lot of MMOs because they were too grindy (WoW anyone?) but somehow I continue to like ED.

That said, I wonder if the problem with ED is that there is core of the game which is off limit to all but the most experienced devs and subject to the most careful considerations (flight model, galaxy model, combat, ship design/balancing), whilst rest is simply a free for all side project (mission system, credit balancing, npc design (lols) etc).

Sometimes it feels like the latter part is simply amateurish. And that’s why people get frustrated and complain.

 

[Stigbob]

If you start reading a book and you don't enjoy the first chapter, you wont enjoy the last chapter or any chapter in between for the simple reason they were written by the same author. The same applies to video games, if you don't like what ED content FDEV have made so far, you probably won't like what they make in the future and you will be happier if you move on to something you do like instead.

 

[Stealthie]

If you start reading a book and you don't enjoy the first chapter, you wont enjoy the last chapter or any chapter in between for the simple reason they were written by the same author.

Not sure about that.

Speaking as somebody who's spent a lot of time in various poophole countries, reading any book that somebody's left lying around, I've read plenty of books which I had no interest in to begin with but which I found completely engrossing by the time I was half way through.


On topic, I'm not really sure about the entire premise of the OP.
If I'm bored of ED, I'm probably not going to enjoy playing another game which is similar to ED either.

Which is why I'm just getting ready to go kill Vittoria Vici at her wedding reception for about the 20th time.

 

[Stigbob]

Not sure about that.

Speaking as somebody who's spent a lot of time in various poophole countries, reading any book that somebody's left lying around, I've read plenty of books which I had no interest in to begin with but which I found completely engrossing by the time I was half way through.


On topic, I'm not really sure about the entire premise of the OP.
If I'm bored of ED, I'm probably not going to enjoy playing another game which is similar to ED either.

Which is why I'm just getting ready to go kill Vittoria Vici at her wedding reception for about the 20th time.

Research indicates otherwise, the give it a bash and drop it if you don't like it readers are happier than the persevere and see if it changes readers who also sometimes resent people in the first category. It only applies to people who actually have options for leisure reading though.

Theatre critics apply the same logic, you don't need to see the second half of a play you dislike to know you don't like it.

As to being stuck in the middle of nowhere with little choice of books been there done that, it's a different kettle of fish as in those situations you usually only meet people who are capable of making do and of going without.