Why PVP is Dead or Dying. PVE is now KING!

[X-Terminator]

FDEV, to put a proper PvP into ED you must bring in Military Role with loaned ships and therefore ships based on Rank plus allow for the ranksto work in commanding orders and not just 1 wing of 4. I mean full on Wars like CZs and bring them around Stations. No more procrastinating - just bring us the game please.

 

[Silk]

SCB's were nerfed because the skill cap to deal with them was too high for the average player

This is absolutely NOT the case. Simply triggering two (or three) SCBs at a time and then switching banks and continuing on requires a hilariously low skill cap and most players have the ability to switch from one bank to another in combat. It was the fact that you could have all boosters shoot at the same time with zero drawback. There was no heat cost or danger in spamming SCBs and players would have to sometimes fight through over 20 SCB rounds, yes that is basically killing their shields 20 TIMES before they would basically just have had you go through all of your ammo or they high waked away.

With the new changes you can't have ALL boosters and ALL SCBs, you have to sacrifice booster spots for heat sinks to actually manage heat. You can't spam SCBs anymore because there is a startup timer when you switch banks and you can cook yourself if you double tap them and don't heat sink. Pre-1.5 was absolutely murdering PvP and only those who relied on it enjoyed it.. Those same people are those that you typically see on here wishing for the olden days where they were basically unkillable.

 

[Anopheles]

When I made The Code I was happy enough for all PVP to be Pirate vs Trader and Pirate Vs Bounty Hunter or even Pirate vs Pirate.

But it is our nature as a troupe ape to form groups and have at other groups.

Despite having no support, people did this in Elite anyway, using external tools. This shows that an interest in PVP is not a by blow of the game, but something that can be integral to the experience.

Not so much on a one to one basis (although Space should be Dangerous and not some kind of utopia outside of the, um, utopias), but more on a organised group vs group thing which I think Frontier are moving towards with missioning, powers and what have you.

Let's also not forget, pirating and its shadow occupation Bounty Hunting, were considered Core Occupations alongside Miner and Trader.

Frontier needed to have kept up with the way their game developed, but didn't really. They tried with Powers and maybe they'll succeed with Engineers.

The skill in PVP design is not just finding a good Paper, Rock, Scissors, Spock, Lizard but hiding it so much that it isn't obvious to the players. Frontier haven't yet even made the Rock Paper Scissors, etc.

 

[DaveB]

This is absolutely NOT the case. Simply triggering two (or three) SCBs at a time and then switching banks and continuing on requires a hilariously low skill cap and most players have the ability to switch from one bank to another in combat. It was the fact that you could have all boosters shoot at the same time with zero drawback. There was no heat cost or danger in spamming SCBs and players would have to sesetimes right through over 20 SCB rounds, yes that is basically killing killing their shields 20 TIMES before they would basically just have had you go through all of your ammo or they high waked away.

With the new changes you can't have ALL boosters and ALL SCBs, you have to sacrifice booster spots for heat sinks to actually manage heat. You can't spam SCBs anymore because there is a startup timer when you switch banks and you can cook yourself if you double tap them and don't heat sink. Pre-1.5 was absolutely murdering PvP and only those who relied on it enjoyed it.. Those same people are those that you typically see on here wishing for the olden days where they were basically unkillable.

QFT and +1. It's also a very real possibility that the current trend to PvP builds with insanely high alpha capability had SCB spamming as part of its origin.

 

[tawittle]

If there was a way to subtract rep, i would minus rep from the OP. PVP is dead....what a stupid stupid thing to say. I can tell OP doesn't PvP.

 

[Jesse30]

I don't understand all the hate for silent running ships? 1v1 situation the shield-less ship is at the disadvantage from the get go, by the time you drop the shields you probably around 30% or 40% hull if anything, and lets not forget you can be targetted once you open fire. The only people complaining are probably those wing gankers that cannot kill that single Cmdr fast enough before he or she jumps out.

 

[Derath]

This is absolutely NOT the case. Simply triggering two (or three) SCBs at a time and then switching banks and continuing on requires a hilariously low skill cap and most players have the ability to switch from one bank to another in combat.

The skill cap to use SCB's was tiny, but i wasn't talking about it from that side i was talking about from the offense side - thats why i said deal with them, not use them .

As far as I could tell a majority of players were unwilling to change anything about their loadout or playstyle to overcome shield cells and considering overcoming shield cells was the core of combat at the time that either means everyone is lazy or the skill cap is too high. I'm being generous and going for the 2nd one here!

And I PvP'd heavily when you could run 40+ on a python and they had no drawbacks or cooldown too, it isn't like I have no experience of them they were easy to use and hard (matter of opinion) to play against. That's a skill cap issue, if it wasn't i'd have gotten mowed down by everyone who ran more SCBs than me.

Edit: Also as I mentioned initially once they added the Corvette and Cutter they were so ridiculously shielded that they would have genuinely been invincible on the original SCBs because the burst required to take one from the initial point people SCB at to zero shields is beyond the firepower of any ship (outside of maybe another corvette or cutter with full frontload)

 

[anikaiful]

Maybe it needs other limits around heat, like only one heat sink allowed?

My exploration ship disagrees with you. Close binaries are its nemesis at times.

 

[Zelos1983]

On you radar most of those ships will DISSAPEAR ....... occasionally you will hear a gauss cannon sound from rail gun fire.

A bit OT, but how is this possible?
I mean, if the ship's sensors cannot detect other ships - and it's even less believable that it would be able to detect inert slugs passing by at relatively high speeds - then how would it be able to generate the sound effects?

 

[Bigglesof206]

A very valid point Anika.
It would be nice if, just occasionally, people stopped to consider the possibility that their desire for some sort of rebalance in their own sphere of interest (PvP here) might well impact harmfully on lots of others in unrelated scenarios - some chap I read earlier seemed to want the ability to reverse engines to be nerfed, to prevent ships facing each other in some sort of standoff - as if combat is the entire raison d'etre around here, and nobody could possibly need to reverse engines for any other reason.

Players should be careful what they wish for, as the saying goes, it may come true.
Dave
(Shorter version - jeez, the brain's a marvellous organ, shame people don't seem to like using it).

 

[Athanos]

What is really killing pvp is instancing. Sure stealth builds seem to be favored among the majority of pvp'ers, but there are lots of other players who are just as good and viable in shield builds (I am one of those people)(Python for life!). Also take into consideration the new Engineers update that will be able to make things much more interesting. For instance the "Perk" or "Modification" Generate heat on contact would render lots of stealth builds invalid as they would burn through their heatsinks much quicker. I'm not saying it's an end all to stealth but I see lots of new ways to be great at pvp coming in the future. I hope anyway.

 

[Kewpa Eurus]

When changes were made to SCBs so they produced more heat as well as a cool down when switching SCBs, it balanced out the shield meta. You needed to make sacrifices to your maximum shield capacity for heat sinks. Things were headed in the right direction.

The current silent meta, is just going back to the old SCB spam meta but you are spamming heat sinks instead. You don't even have to manage power via activating and deactivating modules. Power issues arn't an issue when you totally get rid of shields. This meta totally reversed all of the balancing done the the SCB meta.

The current meta is even more easy as you do not need to manage pips heavily throughout a fight. With the SCB spam meta after the positive balancing changes, being caught with 0 pips to shields at the wrong time could end your fly time early, despite how many SCBs you had equipped. You were afforded less mistakes. Currently it's 4 to engines and 2 weapons, occasionally diverting power to sys in order to be able to spam more heat sinks. You make a mistake in the silent meta, no problem. FA off and spin around like wild until you regain composure.

Kinetics are rendered almost ineffective due to not being able to target your opponent and getting a lead on your reticle. The only thing that can reliably put shots on target are thermic weapons, which is rendered next to useless with the use of mirrored armor.

The only counter to the current meta is to adapt the current meta or have specialized builds that include turrets or the use of The Retribution. This creates a huge min/max problem within pvp as everyone is going to run the same exact build out of necessity. It offers nearly no room for experimentation and a number of different or specialized builds in a wing.

The current meta, is just like the SCB pre 1.5 except the flavor is chocolate instead of vanilla. Pilots who rely heavily on the current meta are going to have a tough time when changes are made. The mark of a good pilot was controlling your pips and dancing them around during key moments of a fight. Silent runners have no need for heavy pip management and releases them from another action they must perform during combat.

There are not enough draw backs for all of the benefits you are getting by using a ship that fits into the silent meta.

 

[insanephoton]

If the devs revisited the DDF pages on sensors there's an obvious way to change the meta. Bring in the active sensors that they talked about. That would be the obvious hard counter to SR builds. It would need it's own drawbacks but that's another discussion.

 

[Thetele]

PvP and BGS suffer from same thing. Frontier didn't think that players would "play" them. They meant that bgs is some thing that happens behind and no one focus on it or pick faction to support. Same with PvP they thought that its something that happens here and there and that people spread around the bubble and not settle in couple systems. They also thought that players wouldn't camp, farm or min/max. They simple excepted players to act and play the game one way, but players chose to do what they want or like. That throw frontiers idea of how game should have played out of the window. For last year they have tried to learned how to adapt to that and make game work in that kind of environment. Hopefully in 2.1 or before end of this season they nail that.

 

[sutex]

Consequences & Communications, the bane of ED

for either PvPvE

 

[Hatchepsut]

If there was a way to subtract rep, i would minus rep from the OP. PVP is dead....what a stupid stupid thing to say. I can tell OP doesn't PvP.

No need to be mean ....
I rarely PVP when forced to .... its the nature of the game afterall.
I tried joining PVP groups and was told that only RAILS was allowed .... no Lasers or Cannons or Plasma.
All they practice all day long is HOW to Equip a Diamondback or FDL for Silent and Rail and how to properly aim and co-ordinate attacks.
All they try to achieve is 3 second ... 5 second ... 7 seconds blitzkrieg rail attacks for each target ....
Basically your shield is down and your armor at 5% before you even realized that 3 or 4 Stealth Rail Ships are Ganking you.
Just wasn't for me ....

 

[Crimson Kaim]

All rail FDL with synthesis and full hull tanking. Yep and this is the reason I got bored.
I wait until the engineers patch or atleast beta which will hopefully add more viarity to combat and PvP.
I do think they'll make it tho, they have balanced SCBs in a good way so they'll be able to balance the other stuff as well.

 

[Kewpa Eurus]

No need to be mean ....
I rarely PVP when forced to .... its the nature of the game afterall.
I tried joining PVP groups and was told that only RAILS was allowed .... no Lasers or Cannons or Plasma.
All they practice all day long is HOW to Equip a Diamondback or FDL for Silent and Rail and how to properly aim and co-ordinate attacks.
All they try to achieve is 3 second ... 5 second ... 7 seconds blitzkrieg rail attacks for each target ....
Basically your shield is down and your armor at 5% before you even realized that 3 or 4 Stealth Rail Ships are Ganking you.
Just wasn't for me ....

You joined the wrong group for PvP then. Each pilot has a their own skill set fit for a certain ships and load outs. The group you joined just tried jamming the current SB meta down our throat. Sure, the SB meta is king right now, but forcing it upon a pilot is not going to teach them to become a better combatant.

 

[vindicator jones]

I think I have said it before, but I will say it again. I think the biggest problem with PVP is not just the meta rail-de-lance, but its also Silent Running. I mean, I am guilty of it also. I have a PVP rail-de-lance that is setup with no shields and built for silent running, cause really, you have no choice, otherwise you will become the main target for the enemy wing...

Honestly I would love to see that when weapons are deployed you are unable to use silent running, due to your weapons being "hot" when powered up and ready to fire. Sure you can still use heat sinks to go invisible, but you will have to balance that out with weapons usage and also switching between heat sinks in the power panel..

Silent running should really only be used for stealth, either trying to enter a station, or avoiding combat either through running or evading detection in the first place. Once your weapons are deployed, you should light up like a Christmas tree on the radar.

Just my point of view, I know a lot of PVP'ers wont agree with me.. but stiff... lol

 

[Oogie Boogie]

Actually I see it similar BUT like yesterday evening many commander (>15) and clans were in Phiagre and everybody was shooting on everything - most in silent. And it was real fun. Especially if you are in the minority it gives you a real chance to survive. Remember that some ToC guys were attacked by a half dozens of players and managed to survive. Big kudos to them! And it was definitely big fun and exciting for all players! Still love PvP!!