PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[Phisto Sobanii]

Sounds delicious, whatever it is.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Sounds delicious, whatever it is.

I love German wheat beer.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

For flat earther it certainly is.

Are also going to tell me that the earth is not flat? I saw it with my own eyes, its flat.

 

[Riverside]

For flat earther it certainly is.

I wouldn't put ALGOMATIC in that category.

 

[Riverside]

The underlying associations were indeed so widely ramified that I've meanwhile lost track myself.

Let's see if we can use this confusion as an analogy to get back on topic.

There is a generally good natured attitude in most players I meet (here or in the game), they are just playing the game in whatever way they do (which may include PvP at any level, I generally play in Open and it happens sometimes), they are happy for others to share the space, and to some degree are interested in what each other does. I guess in some cases to maybe learn a new trick or just to spur them to try something.

I recently met another player in an FDL at my home system, and after carefully IFFing each other (I was in my Corvette, we were both wary) I discovered it was his home system too, and had become so while I had been on my grand tour of the galaxy (I was away from the bubble for 18 months, got back about a month ago). We shared a few stories & tips, winged up & did a bit of bounty hunting & a trade mission, and generally just said o7 to each other as we saw one another. Then I logged in the other day & he was 7,000ly away headed for the core. Turns out my story of taking my 19ly Corvette to Beagle Point and the challenge of finding a route without external help, using jumponium and no route plotter had motivated him to try the same thing, to take a low jump range ship and try to find the route through a maze of dead ends.

I didn't suggest it was a good idea, quite the opposite. If you've been to Beagle Point before you will always be able to retrace your steps, so it's something you can really only do the first time you go there. Most obviously just follow a guide or take a 36ly+ ship so the route plotter will do the hard work for you.

Now there are pathfinders, and path followers. The pathfinders explore all the nooks & crannies of the game mechanisms, and some of them leave a trail - a how-to guide so others don't have to go though all that faff if they don't want to. The followers see an almightly chore & look for help on how to quickly skip to the achievement bit. This is fine too, and most players probably do a bit of both. Some stuff they work out, other stuff they use the helpful guides.

But what then happens is some of the followers complain that the game is too easy, and of course for them it was easy. All they had to do was a quick google & the optimal way to achieve their goal was revealed. Learning from others isn't a problem, that's fine. But the complaining that it's all too easy when they didn't put the effort into finding out for themselves, that's a no no.

IME the pathfinders don't generally complain that the game is too easy (maybe Ziljan is an exception), they just explore the game mechanics & when there are no more challenges they are interested in, they have finished with the game & play something else, or maybe just enjoy making use of their knowledge to help others or to gain personal advantage.

All of that is generalised, and can be applied to any activity, PvP combat is just one of those activities to explore & discover, and it's a pretty rich & complex feature to explore.

But for most of the game, it can be explored alone, whereas fighting another player obviously cannot be done alone. Different people are interested in different aspects of the game, few are interested in all of them. With so many different avenues to explore naturally the majority will not be interested in any given path you care to choose. The majority do not explore, the majority do not A-B trade, the majority do not get past a Cobra MkIII, the majority do not PvP. PvP doubly so because unlike most activities, it must be done with another player whereas pretty well all other tasks can be done with another player but can also be done alone.

So PvP is a niche activity, but the OP's question could have been applied to any single activity. And because you can never be sure what weapons the next random opponent will have, even an optimal build can be beaten if you get lucky & happen to have just the right counter equipped. There is an element of risk there that makes the whole game a little more exciting, if you want it to be.

But most don't want it to be, and some just complain that it's all boring because they skipped ahead to the answers in the back of the book.

 

[jasonbarron]

Let's see if we can use this confusion as an analogy to get back on topic.

There is a generally good natured attitude in most players I meet (here or in the game), they are just playing the game in whatever way they do (which may include PvP at any level, I generally play in Open and it happens sometimes), they are happy for others to share the space, and to some degree are interested in what each other does. I guess in some cases to maybe learn a new trick or just to spur them to try something.

I recently met another player in an FDL at my home system, and after carefully IFFing each other (I was in my Corvette, we were both wary) I discovered it was his home system too, and had become so while I had been on my grand tour of the galaxy (I was away from the bubble for 18 months, got back about a month ago). We shared a few stories & tips, winged up & did a bit of bounty hunting & a trade mission, and generally just said o7 to each other as we saw one another. Then I logged in the other day & he was 7,000ly away headed for the core. Turns out my story of taking my 19ly Corvette to Beagle Point and the challenge of finding a route without external help, using jumponium and no route plotter had motivated him to try the same thing, to take a low jump range ship and try to find the route through a maze of dead ends.

I didn't suggest it was a good idea, quite the opposite. If you've been to Beagle Point before you will always be able to retrace your steps, so it's something you can really only do the first time you go there. Most obviously just follow a guide or take a 36ly+ ship so the route plotter will do the hard work for you.

Now there are pathfinders, and path followers. The pathfinders explore all the nooks & crannies of the game mechanisms, and some of them leave a trail - a how-to guide so others don't have to go though all that faff if they don't want to. The followers see an almightly chore & look for help on how to quickly skip to the achievement bit. This is fine too, and most players probably do a bit of both. Some stuff they work out, other stuff they use the helpful guides.

But what then happens is some of the followers complain that the game is too easy, and of course for them it was easy. All they had to do was a quick google & the optimal way to achieve their goal was revealed. Learning from others isn't a problem, that's fine. But the complaining that it's all too easy when they didn't put the effort into finding out for themselves, that's a no no.

IME the pathfinders don't generally complain that the game is too easy (maybe Ziljan is an exception), they just explore the game mechanics & when there are no more challenges they are interested in, they have finished with the game & play something else, or maybe just enjoy making use of their knowledge to help others or to gain personal advantage.

All of that is generalised, and can be applied to any activity, PvP combat is just one of those activities to explore & discover, and it's a pretty rich & complex feature to explore.

But for most of the game, it can be explored alone, whereas fighting another player obviously cannot be done alone. Different people are interested in different aspects of the game, few are interested in all of them. With so many different avenues to explore naturally the majority will not be interested in any given path you care to choose. The majority do not explore, the majority do not A-B trade, the majority do not get past a Cobra MkIII, the majority do not PvP. PvP doubly so because unlike most activities, it must be done with another player whereas pretty well all other tasks can be done with another player but can also be done alone.

So PvP is a niche activity, but the OP's question could have been applied to any single activity. And because you can never be sure what weapons the next random opponent will have, even an optimal build can be beaten if you get lucky & happen to have just the right counter equipped. There is an element of risk there that makes the whole game a little more exciting, if you want it to be.

But most don't want it to be, and some just complain that it's all boring because they skipped ahead to the answers in the back of the book.

That's quite a story, Riverside. I find it very interesting that in all the months I've been having discussions, or arguments, rather, with you on various aspects of PvP and related topics you haven't really been experiencing any of them. You are probably the most opinionated person on this forum, too, for that matter. At least in the top five. That's actually pretty funny when you think about it.

Taking a Corvette on an 18 month trip to Beagle Point, that's really something, though. Why on Earth would you do that? My five month round trip in a 30 ly anaconda was almost enough to put me off the game!

As an aside, since you brought it up, what's your home system btw? I might want to cruise over there some day to visit the local res

o7

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Riverside, that was an interesting post. That sounds like quite a journey, and good on you for doing it.

But

I recently met another player in an FDL at my home system, and after carefully IFFing each other (I was in my Corvette, we were both wary) I discovered it was his home system too, and had become so while I had been on my grand tour of the galaxy (I was away from the bubble for 18 months, got back about a month ago).

You've just admitted in the PvP Forum you didn't fight anyone for 18 months. You opine pretty aggressively on PvP, and that's fine. However, I no longer have any faith that you are at all experienced or educated on the topic of Elite: Dangerous ship to ship combat. Now, that said, I think it's worth bringing up that a big reason people don't PvP in Elite is because they get a discouraging view from individuals like yourself.

It might be a niche activity, like you said, but the hate it gets from the wider community is broad and wide and completely undeserved.

 

[Riverside]

Taking a Corvette on an 18 month trip to Beagle Point, that's really something, though. Why on Earth would you do that? My five month round trip in a 30 ly anaconda was almost enough to put me off the game!

As an aside, since you brought it up, what's your home system btw? I might want to cruise over there some day to visit the local res

o7

I didn't plan the trip, I'd just had enough of Elite Anaconda NPCs & left the bubble in the ship I happened to be in at the time. It turned into a trip that long because there was nothing worth returning for. Didn't return for any particular reason, just fancied a change.

I have plenty of friends in game who can see where I am on the galmap at any given time, but as my forum status should indicate, I value my privacy (and respect that of others). This may be a British/American cultural thing, like asking how much someone earns.

 

[Riverside]

Riverside, that was an interesting post. That sounds like quite a journey, and good on you for doing it.

But



You've just admitted in the PvP Forum you didn't fight anyone for 18 months. You opine pretty aggressively on PvP, and that's fine. However, I no longer have any faith that you are at all experienced or educated on the topic of Elite: Dangerous ship to ship combat. Now, that said, I think it's worth bringing up that a big reason people don't PvP in Elite is because they get a discouraging view from individuals like yourself.

It might be a niche activity, like you said, but the hate it gets from the wider community is broad and wide and completely undeserved.

I have brought it up regularly, it's no secret. Perhaps you weren't paying attention? I'm Triple Elite too, and I PvE in Open. I'm in favour of PvP, I support it, my game is richer for it, but I'm the blockade runner at a CG, not a ganker or a head hunter.

But mostly I enjoy coming up with workable solutions to difficult challenges, like making PvP meaningful, or more accessible, or discouraging cheating like CLogging & mode switching. I talk about all of this stuff a lot, have a look through my post history sometime

 

[jasonbarron]

I didn't plan the trip, I'd just had enough of Elite Anaconda NPCs & left the bubble in the ship I happened to be in at the time. It turned into a trip that long because there was nothing worth returning for. Didn't return for any particular reason, just fancied a change.

I have plenty of friends in game who can see where I am on the galmap at any given time, but as my forum status should indicate, I value my privacy (and respect that of others). This may be a British/American cultural thing, like asking how much someone earns.

Does that mean I should send you a friend request?

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Let's see if we can use this confusion as an analogy to get back on topic.

There is a generally good natured attitude in most players I meet (here or in the game), they are just playing the game in whatever way they do (which may include PvP at any level, I generally play in Open and it happens sometimes), they are happy for others to share the space, and to some degree are interested in what each other does. I guess in some cases to maybe learn a new trick or just to spur them to try something.

I recently met another player in an FDL at my home system, and after carefully IFFing each other (I was in my Corvette, we were both wary) I discovered it was his home system too, and had become so while I had been on my grand tour of the galaxy (I was away from the bubble for 18 months, got back about a month ago). We shared a few stories & tips, winged up & did a bit of bounty hunting & a trade mission, and generally just said o7 to each other as we saw one another. Then I logged in the other day & he was 7,000ly away headed for the core. Turns out my story of taking my 19ly Corvette to Beagle Point and the challenge of finding a route without external help, using jumponium and no route plotter had motivated him to try the same thing, to take a low jump range ship and try to find the route through a maze of dead ends.

I didn't suggest it was a good idea, quite the opposite. If you've been to Beagle Point before you will always be able to retrace your steps, so it's something you can really only do the first time you go there. Most obviously just follow a guide or take a 36ly+ ship so the route plotter will do the hard work for you.

Now there are pathfinders, and path followers. The pathfinders explore all the nooks & crannies of the game mechanisms, and some of them leave a trail - a how-to guide so others don't have to go though all that faff if they don't want to. The followers see an almightly chore & look for help on how to quickly skip to the achievement bit. This is fine too, and most players probably do a bit of both. Some stuff they work out, other stuff they use the helpful guides.

But what then happens is some of the followers complain that the game is too easy, and of course for them it was easy. All they had to do was a quick google & the optimal way to achieve their goal was revealed. Learning from others isn't a problem, that's fine. But the complaining that it's all too easy when they didn't put the effort into finding out for themselves, that's a no no.

IME the pathfinders don't generally complain that the game is too easy (maybe Ziljan is an exception), they just explore the game mechanics & when there are no more challenges they are interested in, they have finished with the game & play something else, or maybe just enjoy making use of their knowledge to help others or to gain personal advantage.

All of that is generalised, and can be applied to any activity, PvP combat is just one of those activities to explore & discover, and it's a pretty rich & complex feature to explore.

But for most of the game, it can be explored alone, whereas fighting another player obviously cannot be done alone. Different people are interested in different aspects of the game, few are interested in all of them. With so many different avenues to explore naturally the majority will not be interested in any given path you care to choose. The majority do not explore, the majority do not A-B trade, the majority do not get past a Cobra MkIII, the majority do not PvP. PvP doubly so because unlike most activities, it must be done with another player whereas pretty well all other tasks can be done with another player but can also be done alone.

So PvP is a niche activity, but the OP's question could have been applied to any single activity. And because you can never be sure what weapons the next random opponent will have, even an optimal build can be beaten if you get lucky & happen to have just the right counter equipped. There is an element of risk there that makes the whole game a little more exciting, if you want it to be.

But most don't want it to be, and some just complain that it's all boring because they skipped ahead to the answers in the back of the book.

Your admission means that your opinion on PVP can be justifiably dismissed without any consideration.
Many people understand this already, but thanks for confirming it in the open.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

But mostly I enjoy coming up with workable solutions to difficult challenges, like making PvP meaningful, or more accessible, or discouraging cheating like CLogging & mode switching. I talk about all of this stuff a lot, have a look through my post history sometime

I don't make a habit of going through people's post histories. Too many! I also haven't seen you mention it in any discussions we've had. This is literally the first I've heard of it.

One thing I do know is that you like rhetoric as a weapon.

But when all you've done is talk about an activity for 18 months instead of doing it like dozens of posters here? Your credibility is totally shot. I mean, can you imagine me jumping in the Colonia Citizen's Network Discord saying I've been PvPing for 18 months and then start talking about all these amazing ideas I have for Exploration?

No. I would sit at their feet and learn.

 

[Riverside]

Does that mean I should send you a friend request?

Why? Do you consider me a friend? Pretty sure I expressed quite unambiguously what I think about you, quite recently.

 

[Riverside]

Your admission means that your opinion on PVP can be justifiably dismissed without any consideration.
Many people understand this already, but thanks for confirming it in the open.

You were dismissing it anyway, why should it matter to me? Did you think I was someone important?

If I think something needs to be said I'll say it. Most don't even bother to do that, and most of what I write doesn't sink in anyway. But some of it does, and I quite enjoy those moments

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

You were dismissing it anyway, why should it matter to me? Did you think I was someone important?

If I think something needs to be said I'll say it. Most don't even bother to do that, and most of what I write doesn't sink in anyway. But some of it does, and I quite enjoy those moments

Riverside. You really, really don't understand what's happened here, do you?

You're like the politician that opines about global warming by starting with, 'Now, I'm not not a scientist but...'

 

[jasonbarron]

Why? Do you consider me a friend? Pretty sure I expressed quite unambiguously what I think about you, quite recently.

I guess I missed that. Can you link me to it, please? From the way you said that it sounds not very flattering. I thought that besides differences of opinion on PvP matters we were mostly all right with one another.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

You were dismissing it anyway, why should it matter to me? Did you think I was someone important?

If I think something needs to be said I'll say it. Most don't even bother to do that, and most of what I write doesn't sink in anyway. But some of it does, and I quite enjoy those moments

Lol, no...
My concern is generally for the "gentle reader" not armed with the discernment I have.
Your honesty in this regard is commendable.
Consider a disclaimer as a sig perhaps?

"I don't know anything about PVP so please ignore my comments on same."

That people feel compelled to blather on about at topic they have no experience in is VERY funny to me.
Please carry on!

It is fascinating.

 

[Riverside]

Riverside. You really, really don't understand what's happened here, do you?

You're like the politician that opines about global warming by starting with, 'Now, I'm not not a scientist but...'

And yet here you are, still reading & replying. But it's not sinking in is it?

I'm interested in PvP, I want it to be better, more popular, more accessible. I will defend myself if I'm attacked (or run, depending on circumstance), I have played almost exclusively in Open for years, and post regularly in several sections of this forum, again for years.

I don't just do one activity, I do a bit of everything, I even do mining occasionally. Before I left the bubble in Oct'16 I had never been away for more than a fortnight, although I was already Elite in Exploration (I got triple Elite in Jan'16, I'm somewhere around 20th on the hall of fame). I'm about 4,500hrs into the game & still going strong, finding stuff out as I go along & having a blast.

None of this is important to you though, you are only interested in knowing that I have killed two Cmdrs (outside of betas) in both cases they specifically agreed to it, and coincidentally been killed twice, both a long time ago. Couldn't say how many scrapes I've escaped from or attackers I've chased off, but it's not something I look for.

But I like solving problems. Whether they actually get implemented or not isn't so important to me. It is to you though, isn't it?

 

[Riverside]

Lol, no...
My concern is generally for the "gentle reader" not armed with the discernment I have.
Your honesty in this regard is commendable.
Consider a disclaimer as a sig perhaps?

"I don't know anything about PVP so please ignore my comments on same."

That people feel compelled to blather on about at topic they have no experience in is VERY funny to me.
Please carry on!

It is fascinating.

I'm happy you're happy ;-) I don't think we've ever really conversed.

I guess I missed that. Can you link me to it, please? From the way you said that it sounds not very flattering. I thought that besides differences of opinion on PvP matters we were mostly all right with one another.

Nope. Maybe my post got deleted.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

I will defend myself if I'm attacked (or run, depending on circumstance)

You have a recent 18 month stretch where you didn't have to worry about this at all. The mind reels that your views should be taken seriously by anyone who has been dealing with all of that for that 18 month stretch.

Look at your proposal to increase hit points as a way to close the PvE and PvP gap. Most PvPers, who have been doing PvP while you were exploring the Bubble, are arguing against further hit point inflation.

Think this idea over. I mean this, sincerely: '“Don’t judge someone until you’ve stood at his forge and worked with his hammer."