Why task-kill combat logging in Solo is a cheat and can affect others

[Truesilver]

Sandro Sammarco is right. A task-kill combat log is a cheat in any mode of play.

And not necessarily an academic one.

The only mode of play in which it is impossible to affect others is the training missions.

Yet there seems to me (judging from literally hundreds of posts in current threads) to be a widespread misconception that combat logging is relevant only to direct PvP combat, hence only to Open.

I would like to challenge that. Of course we'll all agree that Open is a far more pressing issue. But part of my motivation is that I also want to challenge the prevalent notion that ED in Solo (or Private Group) is inherently non-competitive.

It might be such. But not necessarily.

In the following examples a Solo or PG task-killer has used an immortality cheat to promote themselves over other players:

1. The explorer who task-kills to preserve data and thus gets his name on systems in place of a Cmdr whose journey overlapped with his, or future Cmdrs.

2. The CG-er who task-kills to preserve bounties or combat bonds and thus secures a top spot or percentage in place of another Cmdr competing in the same CG.

3. The Powerplayer who task-kills in order to preserve merits he is delivering to fortify a system, thus preventing players from another Power from successfully undermining that system.

4. The UA-bomber who task-kills when his drives are blown by an NPC pirate, thus preserving and delivering his Unknown Artefacts and taking another player group's station offline.

5. The BGS-attacker who works in Private Group with a wing, destroying NPC authority ships and task-killing when threatened so as most efficiently to tank the influence of a rival player group.

Every one of the above is merely cheating to win.

About 18 months ago FDev stated that players had been banned for using hacks to take the top spots in Conflict Zone CG's (doubtless in Solo).

A task-kill is the same as an immortality, hull always >1% hack. It is just a different means of achieving the cheat. Solo task-killing is the same as Solo hacking.

What is more it is always completely unnecessary and - even worse - sometimes I expect completely pre-meditated.

Some explorers fly defensible ships and seek player escort in Private Group from Cmdrs such as Iridium Wing. Whereas others use a min/maxed build and - let's be realistic - some must fly with their network cable clamped between their teeth when they get near the bubble.

And if they jerk that cable out, every system they secure their name on (permanently) over every other Cmdr in this game is a prize they just won by cheating.

And we haven't even got to Open yet ...

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EDIT:- To explain a little bit more the reason for calling attention to these issues in this unusual way, I'm adding in here a post of mine from page 4:-

Ha ha, thank you Mr von Hackbeil, sir, much appreciated!

While this (I hope) isn't a trollolo thread (even if it is Friday) I'm not personally especially motivated by concerns over the BGS, Powerplay, CG's etc.

What really lies behind my motivation is the sheer number of times I've seen forum users say (in context):

'A log is a win. How does it affect you that they didn't rebuy?'

I've answered that in the context of Open PvP many times but no matter how much detail I give concerning player group warfare or the protection of new players, the answers never seem to register.

Eventually I realised that this is because most users of this forum have little appreciation of the amount of competition there is in this game (it's different on reddit, for better or worse) - and the variety of forms that competition takes - and think all combat is two (or more) randoms meeting once and once only.

One of the main reasons logging matters in Open is that the participants in the combat frequently have agendas.

So I thought that perhaps if I could push the envelope wider - really challenge people's thinking about logging and competition via examples concerning Solo - that might (for a few) get them thinking more Open-mindedly (geddit?) also.

And as I said earlier, more positively (and perhaps in due course in a fresh thread) I would like to encourage more players into the competitive endgame (goals being PvP, BGS or Powerplay-related ... not personal acquisition). I hope that FDev will in due course enrich the content there because to me that is where true longevity lies - not in an annual Groundhog Day of grinding for new, more powerful power-creep modules.

 

[wenkman]

challenge accepted.

of course a logger can affect other players out of a direct PvP combat situation.

all points you mentioned are game aspects where the multi-player or BGS comes into play (trading prices, powerplay, faction influence, player names on planets, disable station services).

my point would be, that for truly PvE i don't care about this. it does not matter for me:

to 1) i don't care if another cmdr was here first or if he cheated to get here. there are enough stars left to discover.

to 2) i never make it into the top cmdrs in a CG and i would not make it by logging. in true PvE i wouldn't even take part.

to 3) i don't take part in PP. that's so multy-player-ish.

to 4) well station service is down, hmm, don't care, go somewhere else (except Jameson Memorial. i did care for that, and i took part in whining)

to 5) private Group BGS attack to gain influence over another player group is not really PvE gameplay, is it?

let the amount of annoyance another player can have on me if i play solo/mobius be (A)

i think (A) is very small.

i think (A) does get only a little bigger if the other guy uses logging in his instance, maybe (A)*1.01

so, you are right. logging affects PvE players. but i think my internet connection, server disconnect in SC and the occasional game freeze does worse.

 

[babelfisch]

The precentage of people combat logging in Solo and the effects it would have on the BGS are so small that it isn't measurable, therefore it's an utterly unimportant topic.

 

[defekt]

Task-killing is a cheat.

It's likely not a severe enough cheat to justify a task-kill counter-measure that a) will be difficult to implement and b) will not be reliable enough to prevent false positives*.

* When it comes to stuff like this even one false positive is enough to undermine the whole effort.

 

[Troopi]

There's a poll going about combat logging. It's now with 72% not caring about it, against 27% caring. It ends in 17/11, so please, do your posts and vote there, and stop adding more topics about it. It is becoming redundant, and the Devs will just look away.

 

[babelfisch]

There's a poll going about combat logging. It's now with 72% not caring about it, against 27% caring. It ends in 17/11, so please, do your posts and vote there, and stop adding more topics about it. It is becoming redundant, and the Devs will just look away.

This is a repost of a comment he made in the other thread. I'd like to see a poll "Do you care about players combat logging in Solo" though

 

[Truesilver]

This is a repost of a comment he made in the other thread

Yes it is but I hope I explained my reasons for turning that post into this expanded version and a fresh thread, within that thread.

I personally consider the aforementioned poll thread itself to be a duplicate of an earlier 47 page thread that was still current when the poll thread started. Imho the earlier thread was a better thread (others may disagree!)

But no, I strongly disagree with burying this thread within the poll one.

I have been reading this forum for a long time and I personally have never seen what I attempt to set out in the opener summarised before.

I personally believe that the forum and the game would benefit from a greater appreciation of the competitive aspects of ED. That ties in with cheating but it also, more positively, is what can make the endgame interesting.

A misconception I've seen widely stated is that once you've all the ships, rank and modules, there will be nothing to do. Hence the endgame should be feared and progress towards it slowed.

On the contrary, for those who are or start to be interested in competition, the endgame is the best game.

But the attractiveness of competition depends upon its integrity - so here I come full circle...

 

[Alien]

When someone can convince me that it's OK for a wing (read: gang) of A-spec Fer-De-Lance and/or Anacondas or bigger/better ships to interdict a Sidewinder with no weapons or very basic pulse lasers and kill that player for no reason other than "they can" ...

THEN I might agree that combat logging is "cheating" in some possible circumstances.

Until then it would be a good idea to not promote the fallacy that combat logging is cheating ... because it isn't

As I described above, a player in a Sidewinder is killed by four A-spec ships controlled by players who are good at combat and only do it because it gives them a power trip, when that is complained about, their response and attitude is "Boo-Hoo get better at the game you cry-baby" or "Go and play in Mobius you carebear" and the use of the word Mobius is intended as an insult

Well, my attitude when they cry about combat logging is the same ... TOUGH.

Oh and insulting Mobius (the person) on Facebook? Classy, very classy and really shows your lack of respect for anyone.

 

[Truesilver]

When someone can convince me that it's OK for a wing (read: gang) of A-spec Fer-De-Lance and/or Anacondas or bigger/better ships to interdict a Sidewinder with no weapons or very basic pulse lasers and kill that player for no reason other than "they can" ...

THEN I might agree that combat logging is "cheating" in some possible circumstances.

Until then it would be a good idea to not promote the fallacy that combat logging is cheating ... because it isn't

As I described above, a player in a Sidewinder is killed by four A-spec ships controlled by players who are good at combat and only do it because it gives them a power trip, when that is complained about, their response and attitude is "Boo-Hoo get better at the game you cry-baby" or "Go and play in Mobius you carebear" and the use of the word Mobius is intended as an insult

Well, my attitude when they cry about combat logging is the same ... TOUGH.

Oh and insulting Mobius (the person) on Facebook? Classy, very classy and really shows your lack of respect for anyone.

For the avoidance of doubt, the bit about insulting Mobius I presume isn't about me - though perhaps it could mistakenly be read that way! I am innocent!!

(EDIT: Or did you actually mean me? You don't think I'm with SDC or something do you? I'm former AA, basically the opposite side.)

But about the rest, as I have pointed out many times now:

The forum meme of the logger as escaping the murderer is based on fact but it completely masks the worse fact that the most prolific loggers in this game are actually those who slaughter defenceless new players for sport and log to avoid retribution.

Ironically, those who say they most hate these Cmdrs are thus, when it comes to logging, their most ardent defenders.

 

[Spiridon]

Oh no, not this again...

 

[Cosmos]

Sandro Sammarco is right. A task-kill combat log is a cheat in any mode of play.

And not necessarily an academic one.

The only mode of play in which it is impossible to affect others is the training missions.

Yet there seems to me (judging from literally hundreds of posts in current threads) to be a widespread misconception that combat logging is relevant only to direct PvP combat, hence only to Open.

I would like to challenge that. Of course we'll all agree that Open is a far more pressing issue. But part of my motivation is that I also want to challenge the prevalent notion that ED in Solo (or Private Group) is inherently non-competitive.

It might be such. But not necessarily.

In the following examples a Solo or PG task-killer has used an immortality cheat to promote themselves over other players:

1. The explorer who task-kills to preserve data and thus gets his name on systems in place of a Cmdr whose journey overlapped with his, or future Cmdrs.

2. The CG-er who task-kills to preserve bounties or combat bonds and thus secures a top spot or percentage in place of another Cmdr competing in the same CG.

3. The Powerplayer who task-kills in order to preserve merits he is delivering to fortify a system, thus preventing players from another Power from successfully undermining that system.

4. The UA-bomber who task-kills when his drives are blown by an NPC pirate, thus preserving and delivering his Unknown Artefacts and taking another player group's station offline.

5. The BGS-attacker who works in Private Group with a wing, destroying NPC authority ships and task-killing when threatened so as most efficiently to tank the influence of a rival player group.

Every one of the above is merely cheating to win.

About 18 months ago FDev stated that players had been banned for using hacks to take the top spots in Conflict Zone CG's (doubtless in Solo).

A task-kill is the same as an immortality, hull always >1% hack. It is just a different means of achieving the cheat. Solo task-killing is the same as Solo hacking.

What is more it is always completely unnecessary and - even worse - sometimes I expect completely pre-meditated.

Some explorers fly defensible ships and seek player escort in Private Group from Cmdrs such as Iridium Wing. Whereas others use a min/maxed build and - let's be realistic - some must fly with their network cable clamped between their teeth when they get near the bubble.

And if they jerk that cable out, every system they secure their name on (permanently) over every other Cmdr in this game is a prize they just won by cheating.

And we haven't even got to Open yet ...

And this doesn't even cover the various credit exploits people have taken advantage of over the years.. It feels like Frontier needs to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to be pressured into addressing cheating and exploiting. It really annoys me to think there are loads of players with vast wealth they didn't earn legit.

And combat logging as you say Truesilver is used even outside of player encounters. I've never seen a game company be so lethargic and shrug when asked questinos about cheating and exploiting. All we get are excuses.. I don't really care how hard it is, they need to implement a technical solution for combat logging. But that 15 second log out timer reveals Frontiers attitude in general.

Exiting the game gracefully indeed..

 

[Kyokushin]

Combat logging is a cheat. Thats all. Marco said that, set the rule and nothing more to add.
There is no any justification for cheating. Cheating is not a justification for Your failures, alleged lack of time or in-game funds.
If you have no time for play, because of family, work, dog, whatever, then deal with that, move on, play with less expensive ships and adjust your expectations for the options you have and are possible for You.

Any try of justification combat logging is a cry of poor people. This is a multiplayer game. Want be good? Then GitGud, and blaze your own trial.

 

[babelfisch]

Yes it is but I hope I explained my reasons for turning that post into this expanded version and a fresh thread, within that thread.

I personally consider the aforementioned poll thread itself to be a duplicate of an earlier 47 page thread that was still current when the poll thread started. Imho the earlier thread was a better thread (others may disagree!)

But no, I strongly disagree with burying this thread within the poll one.

I have been reading this forum for a long time and I personally have never seen what I attempt to set out in the opener summarised before.

I personally believe that the forum and the game would benefit from a greater appreciation of the competitive aspects of ED. That ties in with cheating but it also, more positively, is what can make the endgame interesting.

A misconception I've seen widely stated is that once you've all the ships, rank and modules, there will be nothing to do. Hence the endgame should be feared and progress towards it slowed.

On the contrary, for those who are or start to be interested in competition, the endgame is the best game.

But the attractiveness of competition depends upon its integrity - so here I come full circle...

I have no problem with you reposting your comment here, all I tried to say was that I'd like to see a poll. Everyone loves polls

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Combat logging is a cheat. Thats all. Marco said that, set the rule and nothing more to add.
There is no any justification for cheating. Combat logging and cheating is not a justification for Your failures, alleged lack of times or in-game funds.

Any try of justification combat logging is a cry of poor people. This is a multiplayer game. Wnat be good? Then GitGud, and blaze your own trial.

This thread is not about combat logging being a cheat, it is about how much it affects people when it's done in Solo.

 

[Kyokushin]

This thread is not about combat logging being a cheat, it is about how much it affects people when it's done in Solo.

It doesnt matter where. An OP explained it well.

Everything what you are doing is influing on BGS. If you cheating in solo, then you cheating, because it influe on all other modes.
This is like PvP. If you are doing anything in BGS against other players or their group in Private Group or Solo, then you are doing PvP.
And IF some faction will have war, in BGS, then a people who are killing process in solo or group are cheaters.

 

[babelfisch]

It doesnt matter where. An OP explained it well.

I never said that it matters where. I just explained that this thread isn't about combat logging being a cheat but about how much it affects you.

 

[Kyokushin]

I never said that it matters where. I just explained that this thread isn't about combat logging being a cheat but about how much it affects you.

Cool, i just explained why CL is cheating for me, and why it is cheating no matter where. Cheating is cheating. It no matter it affect more or less. Its a binary. Its affecting or not. If affect then we can discuss it is a less cheating or more cheating, however it is still a cheating.

Another thing - progress. CL is a way to avoid consequences of wrong decision and bad luck. Good decisions are connected with player progress, and any player progress is connected with BGS, so if player is earning money or doing whatever then his progress affect BGS, and BGS is affecting other players progress.
So because of BGS is a connection between anything and aonyone in game then any cheat in any game mode will be still cheat and will influe on others.

 

[babelfisch]

It doesnt matter where. An OP explained it well.

Everything what you are doing is influing on BGS. If you cheating in solo, then you cheating, because it influe on all other modes.
This is like PvP. If you are doing anything in BGS against other players or their group in Private Group or Solo, then you are doing PvP.
And IF some faction will have war, in BGS, then a people who are killing process in solo or group are cheaters.

Again:

We don't need to discuss if combat logging is a cheat or not.

The question is does it affect you. My answer is: No, it doesn't. Logging in Solo doesn't influence the BGS in any measurable way.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Sandro Sammarco is right. A task-kill combat log is a cheat in any mode of play.
…

The funny thing is that Solo Mode is probably the only mode where FD could do something against combat logging without having to deal with a lot of network issues. But maybe not.

The whole combat logging issue is, in my opinion, more a technical problem for FD than anything else. Hopefully they come up with a solution/fix. Combat logging (cutting the cord) should not be possible in any mode. Simple. No need to discuss an obvious technical issue that we as players can't solve.

On this forum it's used by players as excuse in discussions while trying to distract from the real issues.

 

[wenkman]

Cool, i just explained why CL is cheating for me, and why it is cheating no matter where. Cheating is cheating. It no matter it affect more or less. Its a binary. Its affecting or not. If affect then we can discuss it is a less cheating or more cheating, however it is still a cheating.

"only a sith deals in absolutes" - Obi Wan Kenobi. (dealing in absolutes in saying this)

 

[CmdrChorusLindarr]

I'm sorry but I have no idea what the OP is on about...?

What is a "task-kill combat log"? And why does this community come up with such stupid jargon to describe things they don't like other players doing?