Modes Will 3.0 Increase, decrease or have no effect on Open population?

[Robert Maynard]

The devs don't want this...they desire conflict.

It seems that they desire players to desire conflict - however they don't force players to engage indirect conflict. Indirect conflict on the other hand....

 

[Mouse]

Ok phrasing here. LOTS OF PEOPLE not just PVPers did this.

You guys get the general idea. You guys are really good at arguing semantics ignoring the main point.

And I just argued semantics with semantics.

Im on a whole new level.

The general idea is both of you seem to think that it is ok to cheat... the same lame kind of "I smoke because all the cool kids do".. And when you have to say "I'm on a whole new level" your not.

You're either misconstruing what I've said on this, or getting me confused with someone else.


My stance regarding the whole 5/1 exploit thing was that you can't retroactively punish people after announcing something as being a 'cheat' in the severe manner that people were banging their cups and demanding, particularly when after its been reported using the normal channels you've (in the case, FDev) set a precedent of not acknowledging the issue as even being an exploit.


Whereas Combat Logging has been declared as cheating by the Development team, so should carry penalties.


In other (simpler) words, if somehow you could 5/1 exploit still now, I'd be more than happy to see punishments doled out, as it's now classed as cheating in the same manner combat logging is. I wouldn't want to see retroactively applied punishments applied for instances pre-announcement, in the same way I wouldnt want to see shadowbans being doled out for Combat Logging instances prior to them declaring it as such.

So pretty much... "hey FDev isn't doing anything about it lets do it even though we know it is wrong". Then when FDev goes, "we've been watching you and gave you rope and you knew you shouldn't do it but you did it anyways here is the punishment". The reply is crying that it isn't fair???? really?

please no more "smart" (tm) solutions. we've had enough of that crap. just fix combat logging, is all you need for viable pvp.

if you then want good and interesting pvp, fix the network issues, tone down the engineer creep a notch (or ten) and make topography matter.

Flagging would fix combat logging... if your flagged 5 minute...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

true enough, cheating in solo is cheating yourself (or actually null interest in the challenge, which is also an option).

but this changes in multiplayer. if there are exploits and the developer fails to acknowledge and fix them, in due time the cheat just becomes the new normal. this has nothing to do with integrity, is just usual social behavior. it is the only way to keep going, though it may spoil a game.

Fer sure.

Those money making exploits. For years I have heard the argument: what does it matter to you that other players are making XXX million an hour. It doesn't impact your game, don't like 'em, don't use 'em. Then Frontier tries to implement Crime and Punishment and finds that monetary punishments are a no go. If they make them high enough to impact the players who abused money making exploits they screw those who didn't. In reverse, if they design the monetary punishments on those who didn't, those who used the exploits don't feel any impact.

 

[Jockey79]

And thats the thing. It was everyone that took advantage of the 5/1. And it was reported for a really long time. PVPers knew about it but so did PVEers too.

I never used it, my social group never used it.
So not "everyone" did it. Only those who wanted to cheat, abused that exploit.

Just like the Money META's, and the Relog Farming or whatever the case maybe.

EVERYONE does it.

As above.

After each of these were patched and fixed, out of curiosity I had a look at the areas.
Even when some worked, having to go 500Ly out of the bubble to then board hop constantly to then travel 500Ly.....

Sorry, but you need to be a special kind of person to cheat that way.
It is way too much effort.

Same for Rep grinding under the old system.
I kept getting told to get my Rep up so I could get my Cutter to go to a set station and board hop for donate missions.
15 minutes and I passed out at my PC bored to tears. How, just how can anyone keep doing that!
Trading missions while doing my A-B-A won out in the end. Day before the change as well, was so happy

They whine and complain PVP doesnt mean anything.

For the purpose of the BGS and PP it is meaningless.
PvP for the sake of PvP is fun, I know - there is a video of me being killed by a PvP'er on the forums and it was fun.

And when people show that it could mean something by fixing the modes.

Modes are not the issue, they are not the problem.
And trying to blame the modes because you're too stubborn to admit you're wrong isn't helping improve the game.

Otherwise because of the modes, PVP means squat because of the way the BGS and Powerplay influences work with solo and private groups.

Because of cheaters PvP means squat.

Why bother with open when there is a good chance my honestly earned ship can be blown up by a dishonest player in their ill gotten spoils?
And with how much back up cash they have from the cash exploits, there is no point me coming in to open in a combat ship to shoot them.
That hurts my wallet not theirs.

And I dont think they will allow the game to continue this way for very much longer.

You said that 8 months ago (approx.)
New major update out, modes still here, cheaters still not able to play with me.

I like you jockey, and I see why you dont want those changes.

You don't see anything, because you've kept your eyes shut to the actual problems of Power Play and PvP.
So you can come here and hate on players who don't want to play with you while ignoring their reasons for not wanting to play with you.

 

[Old Duck]

UPDATE POST 3.0 RELEASE

I feel more comfortable playing in open in regards to encountering other players (I worry less about being harassed), but I'm probably playing less in open than before because I don't want to be stuck in line for hours waiting for a free landing pad at the Engineer bases (which are quite popular right now). In other words, there's more to the "Open vs PG vs Solo" debate than PvP...

 

[Goose4291]

So pretty much... "hey FDev isn't doing anything about it lets do it even though we know it is wrong". Then when FDev goes, "we've been watching you and gave you rope and you knew you shouldn't do it but you did it anyways here is the punishment". The reply is crying that it isn't fair???? really?

I didn't say that. What I said is that issuing penalties like people on the forums were clamouring for (i.e account bans) is a ridiculous punitive measure for 'cheating', when Frontier hadn't declared the exploit as such at the time when the offenders used it. This is why I support the idea of account bans/shadow bans for combat logging AFTER it was declared as cheating by FDev, but not before.

 

[Goose4291]

I don't think it was you who claimed everyone does it.

Fair enough, it was just it was a continuation of my original point and back and forth with Jockey back on post 366.

The aim of a game is to overcome the restrictions it throws in your path. That is playing the game. Bypassing those feels to me I am robbing myself of a part of the game. It's also a reason I avoid money making schemes. I'm in this for the long haul.

I agree, the problem is as Znort puts it once you bring that into a Multiplayer environment, which Elite is, even for most people who exist as dedicated Solo players.

Fer sure.

Those money making exploits. For years I have heard the argument: what does it matter to you that other players are making XXX million an hour. It doesn't impact your game, don't like 'em, don't use 'em. Then Frontier tries to implement Crime and Punishment and finds that monetary punishments are a no go. If they make them high enough to impact the players who abused money making exploits they screw those who didn't. In reverse, if they design the monetary punishments on those who didn't, those who used the exploits don't feel any impact.

Which is exactly what people like myself who've wanted these exploits plugged as soon as they reared their head, because of how intrinsically linked the acquisition of credits are to progression and player agency in a multiplayer game. We saw it coming with the subtle issues it causes with BGS play and Powerplay and now its coming about in a more overt manner.

 

[Goose4291]

After (Exploits) each of these were patched and fixed, out of curiosity I had a look at the areas.
Even when some worked, having to go 500Ly out of the bubble to then board hop constantly to then travel 500Ly.....

Sorry, but you need to be a special kind of person to cheat that way.
It is way too much effort.

Same for Rep grinding under the old system.
I kept getting told to get my Rep up so I could get my Cutter to go to a set station and board hop for donate missions.
15 minutes and I passed out at my PC bored to tears. How, just how can anyone keep doing that!
Trading missions while doing my A-B-A won out in the end. Day before the change as well, was so happy

As an open player I would say you'd be surprised how much of a minority you'd be in, judging by the explosion in numbers of Mostly Harmless Cutters/Clippers/Vettes that I've seen since the easy mode that was the Robigo runs.

For the purpose of the BGS and PP it is meaningless.

I'm sorry, as someone who's been the idiot in a Type 9 with 500t of merits in open and the Eagle pilot flying around the Durius conflict zones, but it really isn't meaningless (in open). The problem IMO is the aforementioned credit exploits made character death (something in a computer game which a player really should be trying to avoid at all costs) a mild inconvenience at best.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

when Frontier hadn't declared the exploit as such at the time when the offenders used it.

Tripping over this because I hear players (not you) often state they're free to engage in cheating until Frontier specifically declares a specific cheat as a cheat.

If this is about the G1/5 cheat, Frontier did exactly that when they introduced engineers. They state: you need G5 materials for G5 upgrades. That is the rule. Breaking that rule is cheating. Likewise the cable pull. When in combat the game offers a 15 second waiting timer. That is the rule. Breaking that rule is cheating even if Frontier never spoke another word about it.

 

[smilbuta]

Ill be in open a little bit more to see how things pan out. If its the same ole routine.. well.. you know.

 

[ethelred]

Tripping over this because I hear players (not you) often state they're free to engage in cheating until Frontier specifically declares a specific cheat as a cheat.

If this is about the G1/5 cheat, Frontier did exactly that when they introduced engineers. They state: you need G5 materials for G5 upgrades. That is the rule. Breaking that rule is cheating. Likewise the cable pull. When in combat the game offers a 15 second waiting timer. That is the rule. Breaking that rule is cheating even if Frontier never spoke another word about it.

I hear what you are saying, but in the same way it's up to FDEV to close the loopholes, not the players to self-impose rules against "cheating"

 

[Jockey79]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/336/076/c11.jpg

I didn't say that. What I said is that issuing penalties like people on the forums were clamouring for (i.e account bans) is a ridiculous punitive measure for 'cheating', when Frontier hadn't declared the exploit as such at the time when the offenders used it. This is why I support the idea of account bans/shadow bans for combat logging AFTER it was declared as cheating by FDev, but not before.

People didn't need Frontier to tell them a G5 mod for G1 mats was cheating - anyone with half a brain knew that was not working correctly and should have stayed away from it.
So I completely agree with the mob that those people should have had either perma bans or account wipes and shadow ban. Because it was clear that was cheating, without Frontier saying it.

I also agree with the picture, we should go after those vegans lol.

As an open player I would say you'd be surprised how much of a minority you'd be in, judging by the explosion in numbers of Mostly Harmless Cutters/Clippers/Vettes that I've seen since the easy mode that was the Robigo runs.

Oh I've always been in a minority of 1. No one else is like me (I doubt the forums could handle 2 of me )

I'm sorry, as someone who's been the idiot in a Type 9 with 500t of merits in open and the Eagle pilot flying around the Durius conflict zones, but it really isn't meaningless (in open). The problem IMO is the aforementioned credit exploits made character death (something in a computer game which a player really should be trying to avoid at all costs) a mild inconvenience at best.

Not going to argue with the credit overflow issue.
But as for PvP in Open - nothing stops you putting attackers on block, then suddenly their PvP is meaningless to you as you can freely travel in Open with your 500T of merits in relative safety.
In a few weeks (or less) you could fly around in an un-shielded T9 with 500T of goodies in Open at a CG and there will be no one to shoot you - you'd have an impressive block list though

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I hear what you are saying, but in the same way it's up to FDEV to close the loopholes, not the players to self-impose rules against "cheating"

It's not an either situation. Fdev needs to close loopholes, sure.

But self-imposed rules? These are not self imposed. For a G5 upgrade, you need G5 materials. Period. That's the rule. Finding a bug which makes this possible doesn't suddenly mean you're free to abuse it. You are still breaking the obvious rule. Same goes for combat logging.

And why put cheating between quotation marks?

 

[ethelred]

And why put cheating between quotation marks?

Well, it's a continuum innit?

One the heavily cheating side we probably have Clogging & G5 upgrades (both now sanctioned) getting greyer is mode switching and credit exploits (like robigo back in the day) with the lightest being using third party tools.

It's not cheating until FDEV says it's cheating - their game, their rules.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Well, it's a continuum innit?

One the heavily cheating side we probably have Clogging & G5 upgrades (both now sanctioned) getting greyer is mode switching and credit exploits (like robigo back in the day) with the lightest being using third party tools.

It's not cheating until FDEV says it's cheating - their game, their rules.

I don't think it is a continuum.

Cheating is breaking the rules set by the game. Fdev has already laid out those rules. If you break them, you're cheating. If the rule is: you have to wait 15 seconds during combat if you want to log out, and you don't, you're cheating. You feel Frontier needs to explicitly state: "logging out before the 15 second timer has expired is cheating"?

Mode switching and credit exploits aren't cheating. There is no rule that states: you may not log out and log in again for the express purpose of refreshing the mission board. You are free to log in and out whenever you like, barring the 15 second rule. An exploit is merely making use of a feature or bug which the developers did not foresee.

Using 3rd party tools is not an exploit or a cheat.

 

[Mouse]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/336/076/c11.jpg

I didn't say that. What I said is that issuing penalties like people on the forums were clamouring for (i.e account bans) is a ridiculous punitive measure for 'cheating', when Frontier hadn't declared the exploit as such at the time when the offenders used it. This is why I support the idea of account bans/shadow bans for combat logging AFTER it was declared as cheating by FDev, but not before.

Tripping over this because I hear players (not you) often state they're free to engage in cheating until Frontier specifically declares a specific cheat as a cheat.

If this is about the G1/5 cheat, Frontier did exactly that when they introduced engineers. They state: you need G5 materials for G5 upgrades. That is the rule. Breaking that rule is cheating. Likewise the cable pull. When in combat the game offers a 15 second waiting timer. That is the rule. Breaking that rule is cheating even if Frontier never spoke another word about it.

This ^.


From the moment it was "discovered" people knew dang well that it wasn't meant to work the way people discovered it could be "gamed" to work. So the punishments dolled out by FDev were not "ridiculously punitive". It is like the "wall" hack some found for a FPS where they could shoot through walls... they didn't NEED the developer to tell them straight up that it was cheating to do that... they knew right away and still did it.. so they deserve whatever banhammer they get and so did those caught milking exploits in Elite.


And if I get punished by Fdev for CLing for the VERY specific reason I did it. I will appeal because of the reason and will accept their decision. But it is still a huge difference in avoiding a cheater and blatantly cheating to gain the system and profit yourself.

 

[Jockey79]

Well, it's a continuum innit?

One the heavily cheating side we probably have Clogging & G5 upgrades (both now sanctioned) getting greyer is mode switching and credit exploits (like robigo back in the day) with the lightest being using third party tools.

It's not cheating until FDEV says it's cheating - their game, their rules.

Mode switching has never been a grey area. And never will be.
It was,and it still is, an intentional design feature. See the top link in my Sig for more information.

As for the mission board refresh, it has been put to Frontier who have not come out either way on the matter (as far as I know).
After my initial test of that mechanic (because I thought someone was pulling my leg tbh), I've stayed clear of it.
To me, login in/out constantly isn't in the spirit of the game or in the spirit of honest play. It's also incredibility dull.
I'd rather take what missions are there and go. That way, I've got a clean conscience should Frontier decide it's a no go.

 

[Mouse]

Mode switching has never been a grey area. And never will be.
It was,and it still is, an intentional design feature. See the top link in my Sig for more information.

As for the mission board refresh, it has been put to Frontier who have not come out either way on the matter (as far as I know).
After my initial test of that mechanic (because I thought someone was pulling my leg tbh), I've stayed clear of it.
To me, login in/out constantly isn't in the spirit of the game or in the spirit of honest play. It's also incredibility dull.
I'd rather take what missions are there and go. That way, I've got a clean conscience should Frontier decide it's a no go.

It confuses me that they view modes and the ability to switch between them as a "cheat" since it was ADVERTISED on the Kickstarter. "Multiplayer: you will be able to control who else you might encounter in your game – perhaps limit it to just your friends? Cooperate on adventures or chase your friends down to get that booty. The game will work in a seamless, lobby-less way, with the ability to rendezvous with friends as you choose."

And while I do not agree with people flipping modes to get missions, do those up in arms about it also rant about people switching modes because they can't get a landing pad?

 

[Jockey79]

It confuses me that they view modes and the ability to switch between them as a "cheat" since it was ADVERTISED on the Kickstarter. "Multiplayer: you will be able to control who else you might encounter in your game – perhaps limit it to just your friends? Cooperate on adventures or chase your friends down to get that booty. The game will work in a seamless, lobby-less way, with the ability to rendezvous with friends as you choose."

And while I do not agree with people flipping modes to get missions, do those up in arms about it also rant about people switching modes because they can't get a landing pad?

You know, I've never seen anyone moan about people switching for landing pads now you mention it. Weird how that is exempt from the complaints.
It is also weird how some folks can abuse the game mechanics and be okay with that, yet call an advertised feature "cheating".

No wonder "some folks" (not pointing fingers at anyone, before someone gets their panties in a twist) could not have a real discussion about the failings of Power Play or pointless PvP.
Their minds are too tired from mental gymnastics excusing their own antics and from making poor excuse to call features "cheating".

I'm surprised as a Tobii Eye X eye tracker and Oculus Rift VR owner, I've not been accused of "cheating".
As I get a clear advantage over someone who has neither of those products.

Go figure.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

I never used it, my social group never used it.
So not "everyone" did it. Only those who wanted to cheat, abused that exploit.



As above.

After each of these were patched and fixed, out of curiosity I had a look at the areas.
Even when some worked, having to go 500Ly out of the bubble to then board hop constantly to then travel 500Ly.....

Sorry, but you need to be a special kind of person to cheat that way.
It is way too much effort.

Same for Rep grinding under the old system.
I kept getting told to get my Rep up so I could get my Cutter to go to a set station and board hop for donate missions.
15 minutes and I passed out at my PC bored to tears. How, just how can anyone keep doing that!
Trading missions while doing my A-B-A won out in the end. Day before the change as well, was so happy



For the purpose of the BGS and PP it is meaningless.
PvP for the sake of PvP is fun, I know - there is a video of me being killed by a PvP'er on the forums and it was fun.



Modes are not the issue, they are not the problem.
And trying to blame the modes because you're too stubborn to admit you're wrong isn't helping improve the game.



Because of cheaters PvP means squat.

Why bother with open when there is a good chance my honestly earned ship can be blown up by a dishonest player in their ill gotten spoils?
And with how much back up cash they have from the cash exploits, there is no point me coming in to open in a combat ship to shoot them.
That hurts my wallet not theirs.



You said that 8 months ago (approx.)
New major update out, modes still here, cheaters still not able to play with me.



You don't see anything, because you've kept your eyes shut to the actual problems of Power Play and PvP.
So you can come here and hate on players who don't want to play with you while ignoring their reasons for not wanting to play with you.

Modes are the cancer to PvP, making it meaningless, you can ask any PvPier and they will tell you the same.

PP and BGS are very much usefull for PvP, apart from the technical details which I explained countless times, just the fact that people undermine in solo avoiding opposition ia enough proof that PvP is very usefull for those activities, otherwise people would not farm and hide in SOLO.