With the implementation o NEW Karma e C&P - Will Frontier Give some way to track down wanted CMDRs?(PvP)

[Riverside]

A couple of questions:

What's the criteria for locking a player into Open?

How do you claim the bounty when they can just high wake from you?

This is starting to look like a lot of extra features being requested essentially to give the worst players exactly what they want - constant attention. I can see how their being chased will restrict their ability to club more seals but I'm not sold on how this discourages the worst behaviour.

I don't think having a friend 'farm' their bounty is a concern financially, but if one loss clears the bounty they can just go on another killing spree, rinse & repeat.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I'd even be satisfied with it if it was just the murder or assault on human CMDR's that earned the marker

If the bounty was gained through PvP then it seems reasonable that players with PvP bounties be more "accessible" for player Bounty Hunters - the PF itself could be the one providing the tracking information....

 

[StiTch]

Because Expecting the NPCs to kill players killers is like expecting bugs to kill an Elephant...

I brought this up in another thread, where I discussed different ways of punishing players with low karma score.

Unfortunately it would appear a lot of forumites/PvEers have an unshiftable expectation that C&P should either literally make an "offender's" game unplayable (not going to happen) or refuse to allow anything that can be seen as "making their game better" in some light.

So far, nothing but refusing them docking to high/low sec stations has made it through PvE forum approval.

So...the most effective way to punish a murderer is let them reside in their home environment, with the irritation of a wing interdicting them that they've probably spent the last few months learning to escape from after a gank.

It doesn't matter if an interdicting wing has one, ten or a hundred ships...anything with engineered drives can be out of attack range by the time the NPC's hardpoints are out. So I guess after the release of C&P when the only people to get hit here are CLers, I'm going to be sporting the "I told you so" look for some time, and looking forward to hearing proposals on punishments that have reasoning behind them instead of panicked mob mentality.

But in terms of PvP in C&P, only panicked responses to forced Open would ever prevent it being a hell of a development for the game. It gives PvP bounty hunters an entire leash of life no other PvP player gets in that targets can't hide in solo and have to hide in game or face hunters like a man, it pushes reliance away from neutered NPCs to do the work, allows for some reasonable revenue stream if done correctly (e.g. money is taken from offender's account), and the best thing to do to a ganker...is show them a ganker that specialises in gankoring other PvPers. You know, rather than the gimballed noob exploding variety of ganker.

This is starting to look like a lot of extra features being requested essentially to give the worst players exactly what they want - constant attention. I can see how their being chased will restrict their ability to club more seals but I'm not sold on how this discourages the worst behaviour.

I don't think having a friend 'farm' their bounty is a concern financially, but if one loss clears the bounty they can just go on another killing spree, rinse & repeat.

This is utter paranoia...we shouldn't be trying to blow up criminals, because trying to destroy them gives them attention? Come on now, seriously. Grow up.

And I suspect the clearance of bounties and karma score will be entirely seperate. Bounties clear on death, but I don't think you'll be seeing someone free to go on a killing spree unimpeded by karma just because they died once.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I'd be up for some kind of bounty board. For both PvP and PvE.
A "Galaxies Most Wanted" list, which would always be a list of CMDRs, because they have higher bounties.
And then a local bounty board for within that the Major Factions influence, which would include PvE targets to hunt down too.

Proper bounty hunting at last!

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Cupcake]

Bad idea, really bad idea. In my bounty hunting days way back in SWg, when snowflakes were rare thing we used to go on hunts, using tracker droids and probe droids etc and this was awesome.... Until the player with the bounty either logged off (they were notified when being hunted) or entered a safe area where we could not enter and wait, and wait, and wait.... So, no, bad idea, people will just log or go solo. Will not be workable unless those issues are adressed.

 

[Robert Maynard]

So, no, bad idea, people will just log or go solo. Will not be workable unless those issues are adressed.

How would players leaving the game be "solved"?

 

[kinglemo2000]

Some good ideas for PvPers giving tools and gameplay around bounty hunting, the only problem I could see with this is the shared BSG, one example say a player killer with a high bounty plays on the XB or PS4 and you are on the PC you would be chasing ghosts if this idea was introduced you would have to have a identifier to show what gaming platform the person is on otherwise it won't work. Also the idea about forcing or trapping the player killer in open I gather this is for crimes committed in open only as another scenario not thought about is Private groups there are groups where people play together with just their friends and have never entered or played in open and they may PvP in these groups and again rack up a big bounty that could show at a station and you could either be chasing ghosts or having a rather annoyed player being forced to play in mode he doesn't want to and never has which goes against the game play your way, unless the karma system is only based around open play and doesn't fully apply to solo and groups which in itself could be a good thing as a player killer in open wouldn't be able to hide in solo to regain his good Karma .

 

[StiTch]

(they were notified when being hunted)...Will not be workable unless those issues are adressed.

Well regarding the latter, I'm really hoping to see forced Open for offenders.

Karma is about, in effect, bringing/restoring risk to playstyles that currently lack consequence, or in the case of CLing deliberately removes that consequence.

If someone has been circumventing/escaping risk that much, I see no grounds for complaint that they should be allowed to resume hiding in a risk-free mode. Surely, as an example, for the murder of multiple other weaker CMDRs you would have no reasonable objection to your escape route from other bigger CMDRs being severed?

As the former bit goes...ED isn't plastic enough to have "you are being tracked" notifications. Or at least I would hope not. Nay, lock the landlubber to Open and let him be hunted as normal; welcome to do what he wants until someone starts on him, but if he logs when someone approaches he'll have to sit at menu waiting for the zone to be clear, and the moment the interdiction starts...it's game on.

How would players leaving the game be "solved"?

Luckily not much needs solving In a karma-based C&P implementation they would be penalised for CLing. Escaping to menu before the fight can have no penalty under acceptable menu logging...if the offender is willing to escape to menu every time someone else appears on the radar, which as I mention in a different response above, is half your game time gone if forced to Open.

Of course, a redesign of the menu log would be highly appreciated too.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Bad idea, really bad idea. In my bounty hunting days way back in SWg, when snowflakes were rare thing we used to go on hunts, using tracker droids and probe droids etc and this was awesome.... Until the player with the bounty either logged off (they were notified when being hunted) or entered a safe area where we could not enter and wait, and wait, and wait.... So, no, bad idea, people will just log or go solo. Will not be workable unless those issues are adressed.

Either way... this is CP and "Karma" if you force the "bad" player into Solo or anarchy area... (cause the player bounty will be galaxy wide...) then the CP is working amazingly well don't you think?!

 

[Riverside]

Still not keen on this, I don't like the idea of giving players tools so they can gang up on another player. Use the friend list & you can do this in a way that'll be entertaining for both of you.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

What's the criteria for locking a player into Open?

How do you claim the bounty when they can just high wake from you?

 

[StiTch]

Still not keen on this, I don't like the idea of giving players tools so they can gang up on another player.

I put forward a proposal you read whereby "karma offenders" may attempt to dock but any scan from anyone in the vicinity, cop or not, would result in police attention, including station guns - one of the few things in ED capable of putting someone down in moments, thereby actually presenting the chance for a "bad" CMDR to be shot down.

That, as you are aware, was unanimously shot down by the PvE community as "not harsh enough", because the gankers that they're looking to punish should have content removed from them for their antisocial misdeeds.

And now, objections because we don't want the poor gankers to face uneven odds?

Would you mind doing me a favour on behalf of the PvE community, and explaining where the hell your consistency is? Or is it just accepted that any thread relating to PvP, or not denouncing gankers, should be vehemently objected to?

Come on, if someone's been on an unimpeded murder spree, that murderer should know risk too. We don't need to ban them from the game, put them into rehab, or slay their dog as part of an honour killing. They should however face the risk they've imposed on others, as per the very essence of open - that no real rules exist, and you should rely on your own ability and foresight to mitigate the risk of a cutthroat galaxy.

 

[Theodrid]

I put forward a proposal you read whereby "karma offenders" may attempt to dock but any scan from anyone in the vicinity, cop or not, would result in police attention, including space guns.

That, as you are aware, was unanimously shot down by the PvE community as "not harsh enough", because the gankers that they're looking to punish should have content removed from them for their antisocial misdeeds.

And now, objections because we don't want the poor gankers to face uneven odds?

Would you mind doing me a favour on behalf of the PvE community, and explaining where the hell your consistency is? Or is it just accepted that any thread relating to PvP, or not denouncing gankers, should be vehemently objected to?

Stitch, your idea was 'shot down' because sneaking into a station is trivial, now sure, if x, y and z was redesigned by Frontier then it could work BUT there could be massive repercussions for smuggling too, (not a bad thing necessarily, should be harder). As Frontier have hinted at a karma system but there has been no mention of a total redesign of station approach/sneak mechanics we have to consider your proposal on what we have now and as I said in said thread it is an entirely toothless punishment to the degree it is barely a punishment at all. As you know many folks have issues with your 'content removed' stance too because we all have a choice whether to risk any proposed punishment and any docking restrictions would be temporary, if something is as trivial to circumvent as smuggling goods or ones self into a station are then it is neither a punishment or a deterrent.

On the bounty hunting side of things something certainly has to be done to make player on player bounty hunting more feasible, Frontiers current implementation is a hell of a long way from what was proposed back in the design forums/discussions and is lacking in any meaningful way.

 

[NeilF]

Another one question for SS.

Will we have some kind of board with the hightest bounties of the federation (aside docked on Dezrha) and some close proximity Wanted CMDRs (like the friends list).

Because Expecting the NPCs to kill players killers is like expecting bugs to kill an Elephant... It's not gonna happen... Bugs will only be able to kill Puny Non exploited PvE players... Frontier will need to harvest (and make it profitable!) Player bounty hunters if they want to make their new system work. otherwise their Potato NPC Will not be able to keep up with any PvP player.

So I ask again... Will PvP bounty hunters be able to get some Board or some Comms , where they can see and receive feedback from wanted CMDRs around them?

You Pve Players think this will help? Because as a PVP Master Pirate I can say that NPCs frankly will not even scratch the surface of my Little Cobra... not even with a Exploivette NPCs can be good enough to take a player down... maybe a PvE Players can die for them... but... that's not the case... Players will not receive this kind of bounty anyway...

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE no league tables for toxic unwanted behaviour!

I'm all up for there being information on where players earmarked by the PF as scoundrels are etc. BUT, I think their bounty should be an insignificant bounty IMHO (little more than to make attackign legal). Making it anything significant, or ramping according to unwanted behaviour will just create a league table and/or exploits.


TBH, I'd rather effort went into actually creating more interesting PvE/PvP combat scenarios/gameplay than trying to make the community do the job which the C&P (karma) mechanics should be achieving in itself.

 

[StiTch]

Stitch, your idea was 'shot down' because sneaking into a station is trivial, now sure, if x, y and z was redesigned by Frontier then it could work BUT there could be massive repercussions for smuggling too, (not a bad thing necessarily, should be harder).

No, it wasn't. That's an outright lie, regardless of what your personal views were on the topic.

You even go on to make the same kind of objections that constituted a lot of what I read through at the time. Now, this isn't the place to argue whether that was a valid argument or not, but don't tell me the PvE community only vies for punitive measures when it is, say, too easy to sneak past.

Quite early on I made the point that secretive station entrance/smuggling needs work anyway and while likely no more than a pipe dream, would be massively beneficial to the now lackluster smuggling missions...which these days are basically rebranded delivery missions. I've known that secretive station entrance is a yawn-worthy affair for some time now.

TBH, I'd rather effort went into actually creating more interesting PvE/PvP combat scenarios/gameplay than trying to make the community do the job which the C&P (karma) mechanics should be achieving in itself.

Er, they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. PvP bounty hunting is an interesting PvP combat scenario.

I would also like to point out that we need karma because of severely anaemic player and PvE crime handling. If your bounty counted for more than one system, and police could do worse than interdiction irritation, and capable players could could hunt you down for your bounty...we wouldn't need a Magical Space Good Boy Factor in the first place.

 

[NeilF]

Er, they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. PvP bounty hunting is an interesting PvP combat scenario.

I would also like to point out that we need karma because of severely anaemic player and PvE crime handling. If your bounty counted for more than one system, and police could do worse than interdiction irritation, and capable players could could hunt you down for your bounty...we wouldn't need a Magical Space Good Boy Factor in the first place.

Agreed...

Surely the PF Bounty being discussed is the cross-all-system bounty you're discussing? ie: You're then fair game no matter where you are?

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

No, it wasn't. That's an outright lie.

You even go on to make the same kind of objections that constituted a lot of what I read through at the time. Now, this isn't the place to argue whether that was a valid argument or not, but don't tell me the PvE community only vies for punitive measures when it is, say, too easy to sneak past.

Quite early on I made the point that secretive station entrance/smuggling needs work anyway and while likely no more than a pipe dream, would be massively beneficial to the now lackluster smuggling missions...which these days are basically rebranded delivery missions. I've known that secretive station entrance is a yawn-worthy affair for some time now.




Er, they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. PvP bounty hunting is an interesting PvP combat scenario.

I would also like to point out that we need karma because of severely anaemic player and PvE crime handling. If your bounty counted for more than one system, and police could do worse than interdiction irritation, and capable players could could hunt you down for your bounty...we wouldn't need a Magical Space Good Boy Factor in the first place.

I remember that thread. Well, part of it. Lol

Your idea on randomised security patrols was probably enough to make smuggling more difficult by itself.

It'd also help make life harder, if the moment you submitted a docking request, security begin moving to scan you, or atleast more likely too.
Same if you're speeding.

Could even throw in "hiccups" when requesting to dock in a high security area, that before permission is granted, you are required to submit for a scan. To avoid it, you'd just need to run away. Lol

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[StiTch]

It'd also help make life harder, if the moment you submitted a docking request, security begin moving to scan you, or atleast more likely too.
Same if you're speeding.

Didn't think of this, but it's not a bad idea at all, and provides a unique facet to success...how busy the station is at the time.

We'll never see something like this, but still good thinking

Agreed...

Surely the PF Bounty being discussed is the cross-all-system bounty you're discussing? ie: You're then fair game no matter where you are?

Not entirely sure what you're getting at precisely tbh.

With regards to PvP bounties it has to be tied into karma to work around a couple of obstacles, but once some is flagged as naughty enough, I see no reason they shouldn't be forced to Open and made fair game to anyone that wants to take a pop at them.

In-game bounties that we are used to don't work across all systems with PP, so I don't think we'll be getting them back.

 

[Theodrid]

No, it wasn't. That's an outright lie, regardless of what your personal views were on the topic.

You even go on to make the same kind of objections that constituted a lot of what I read through at the time. Now, this isn't the place to argue whether that was a valid argument or not, but don't tell me the PvE community only vies for punitive measures when it is, say, too easy to sneak past.

Stitch, don't call me a liar, even if only one or a few folk in your thread said your idea was toothless that discounts your 'outright lie' nonsense straight away, don't call me a liar because I didn't say 'some people'. Either come up with a proposal that actually has consequences attached to it or don't but please consider your reaction if something as trivial as your idea was proposed as a fix for combat logging. You, quite rightly, would be up in arms about it, flesh it out a bit more in your thread or pm me details to avoid further detailing here because sneaking into a station is a carp idea.

BTW I'm trying to have a reasonable debate with you and I'm avoiding calling you names, are you incapable of paying me the same respect?

 

[Mohrgan]

Bad idea, really bad idea. In my bounty hunting days way back in SWg, when snowflakes were rare thing we used to go on hunts, using tracker droids and probe droids etc and this was awesome.... Until the player with the bounty either logged off (they were notified when being hunted) or entered a safe area where we could not enter and wait, and wait, and wait.... So, no, bad idea, people will just log or go solo. Will not be workable unless those issues are adressed.

The way it is addressed is: Once you have committed a Pc on Pc murder, your character is locked into open for the duration of the crimes timer. That eould be 6 days, if you can go without resetting it. Let's add a little gem to the idea: The timer is chained to in-game time, not real life time. This will make waiting out the timer impossible.

 

[StiTch]

BTW I'm trying to have a reasonable debate with you and I'm avoiding calling you names, are you incapable of paying me the same respect?

This is really the wrong place for a debate as you say. I called you out as a liar because that was the simple crux of the thread as it ended out - I appreciated your input as more reasoned than most, but I heard very few objections aside from yourself and cosmicspacehead about that aspect of it, and mostly complaints that it was - as you say - toothless; that even if the smuggling were difficult, offenders should outright have no right to use the facilities. That wasn't just one or two people, it was almost everyone excluding me and perhaps yourself

Again...here's not the place to argue whether it was indeed toothless. But the lack of consistently that gets put forward in such a vehement manner just smells of people wanting arguments more than actually improving the game.

Never thought I'd see people call out winged murder of a ganker as too extreme after all that...*chuckles*