Wow, Wanted Bounty System is Dumb

[Brian of Ardagh]

I've never passed judgement on the wanted bounty system before because I never experienced it firsthand. Tonight I experienced it and think it is pretty poorly implemented and a little bit comical. I'm not surprised that so many people don't understand the system, especially if they haven't read the forums.

So, I took a data scan mission and got a 500 CR bounty for trespassing. I flew back to the system where I took the mission and got paid as well as a bounty claim for destroying a wanted skimmer, there was a 2nd skimmer but it got stuck under the wreckage of the 1st one so I left it.

I knew I was wanted in the other system but I wanted to see how you paid off bounties, where and how. There was an IF in the system where I took the mission but reading the warrant description I thought I'd see how it worked firsthand.

Okay, for one thing it says bounty near the top, hard to miss, but in the description it says fine and that you can pay it off at any Security Office in a system controlled by the issuing faction. I read that and figured, okay, there's an outpost with an Authority contact run by another faction in the same system where I am wanted. So I drop over there and, nope, I can't pay the bounty (or fine?).

Nowhere did the description state that paying off the fine, that's the wording, would mean being transported elsewhere. Although I knew about that from descriptions here. So I think, yes I can pay it through anonymous access (dumb name, it should be restricted access as they must know who I am) at a station where I am wanted. I dock, look at the Authority contact and it says they will be happy to let me pay my fine. I pay the 500 CR and then I'm confronted with a screen that looks like a rebuy screen. What's really dumb is the "Galactic Bureau" text about "bailing" me out and wiping my criminal record or some such dross. Where were you guys before the faction decided it was worth shipping me and my ship 72 LY so I can spend 5 seconds in prison after they collect 500 CR.

It's also pretty lazy design that it is really a rebuy screen, the journal says I was resurrected with a rebuy of 500 CR. So, essentially I was killed and my ship destroyed for 500 CR and then I was "resurrected" and my ship rebuilt all for the crime of trespassing worth 500 CR.

All in all, a fun night, I only got disconnected once, at the planetary scan location. When I logged back in the station was 1.38 km away across a large ravine that wasn't there before. At least after the disconnect the discovery messages went away!


For some context here are some screen shots from my 2nd go around:

This is the bounty description, which could use some additional details:

Spoiler

This is what you see if you turn yourself in, odd that you can cancel out and run if you want:

Spoiler

This is the 1st page of the detention facility interface:

Spoiler

This is where you are actually debited the fine, and I guess can liquidate some other ships if you don't have the credits:

Spoiler

And this is where you confirm you payment:

Spoiler

You'll note that this is a barely modified version of the rebuy screen. The part about attorneys bailing you out and cleaning your record is weird, they don't ask for any compensation. The fine payment goes to the issuing faction, it can't go to the attorney. Also you are immediately released to your own recognizance, in your own vessel, with no record of your continuing crimes. What a really strange legal system.

 

[deleteduser]

There's a differnce between paying off a fine and handing yourself in though. Lesson learnt.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

There's a differnce between paying off a fine and handing yourself in though. Lesson learnt.

You obviously didn’t read my post, I was already aware of the difference. I just wanted to see it in action and feel that the system is a bumbling, unnecessary mess.

 

[Jukelo]

If you are wanted, you can't have fines. Fines (old and new) are automatically transformed into bounties.

Paying off fines doesn't transfer you to a detention center, only bounties do that.

 

[bicarbon8]

If you are wanted, you can't have fines. Fines (old and new) are automatically transformed into bounties.

Paying off fines doesn't transfer you to a detention center, only bounties do that.

OP's point is that the GAME should be explaining this, not someone in a forum.

I agree that the C&P system is extremely poorly explained in the game and is implemented with some wonky processes and UI.

 

[Stealthie]

Paying off fines doesn't SHOULDN'T transfer you to a detention center, only bounties do that.

FTFY.

Sometimes fines do result in transfer to a detention centre.

I suspect this is, at least, part of the reason for some of the confusion surrounding C&P.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

If you are wanted, you can't have fines. Fines (old and new) are automatically transformed into bounties.

Paying off fines doesn't transfer you to a detention center, only bounties do that.

Again, I was already aware of that fact. I was pointing out how the bounty transaction details do a poor job of explaining how and where to pay off the bounty as well as not fully explaining the consequences of each action.

For one thing the description text says fine whilst the title says bounty.
Second it says you can pay your fine (the text says fine) at any security office in a system controlled by the that issuing faction. This is wrong or at least inaccurate, you can’t pay it at any station in a system controlled by the faction. You can pay it at a station, not a system, controlled by the issuing faction.
Third, the description never mentions that paying at a station owned by the issuing faction means a trip to a detention facility.
Fourth, the description never mentions that you can pay and get your wanted status removed at an IF facility and thereby avoid the detention facility.

I was aware of these facts but wanted to see them in action. There was an IF in the system where I took the mission. I could have gone there but decided to follow the warrant instructions on how to pay off the bounty.

It’s as if I got a speeding ticket in the mail and the instructions said I could go to the police station and pay off the bounty. Then I get there, give the police 500 Cr, get handcuffed and hauled away to a jail cell two states over. I then spend 5 seconds in my car while a lawyer tells me the 500 Cr will be used to wipe my criminal record and I’m free to go. Dumb, just dumb.

 

[StiTch]

The C&P system really...still needs improvement, for want of a better explanation.

I think that FD tried to do "the crowdpleaser" and boiled C&P down to "make life awkward as possible for criminals". Unfortunately the actual result is making life awkward for most players, whenever they put a single skin cell on their toe out of line.

I've said it before but C&P still needs two major adjustments among a myriad tweaks: a risk/reward incentive for crime-based playstyles, and scaled punishments for offenders, rather than all offenders getting the same punishment but with a different payment level.

 

[Misty_Dark]

Again, I was already aware of that fact. I was pointing out how the bounty transaction details do a poor job of explaining how and where to pay off the bounty as well as not fully explaining the consequences of each action.

For one thing the description text says fine whilst the title says bounty.
Second it says you can pay your fine (the text says fine) at any security office in a system controlled by the that issuing faction. This is wrong or at least inaccurate, you can’t pay it at any station in a system controlled by the faction. You can pay it at a station, not a system, controlled by the issuing faction.
Third, the description never mentions that paying at a station owned by the issuing faction means a trip to a detention facility.
Fourth, the description never mentions that you can pay and get your wanted status removed at an IF facility and thereby avoid the detention facility.

I was aware of these facts but wanted to see them in action. There was an IF in the system where I took the mission. I could have gone there but decided to follow the warrant instructions on how to pay off the bounty.

It’s as if I got a speeding ticket in the mail and the instructions said I could go to the police station and pay off the bounty. Then I get there, give the police 500 Cr, get handcuffed and hauled away to a jail cell two states over. I then spend 5 seconds in my car while a lawyer tells me the 500 Cr will be used to wipe my criminal record and I’m free to go. Dumb, just dumb.

I totally agree with you about this, I have and my friends have learned the hard way, that doing these scan mission, despite it calls it fine, trying to pay it of at the originator of the fine, will always give you a "free" trip to the detention center. And the details when handing yourself in is very subtle, this should be more prominent.


So now I am very cautious where I pay my fines, and like I said, I always go to IF to pay fines from scanning mission, just to avoid the free "transportation".

 

[Stealthie]

Thing is, as well, that if you're going to create a convoluted, or nuanced (depending on your POV), system, it's absolutely GOT to work correctly if people are to be expected to understand it.

For example, we've currently got cop-ships which open fire on CMDRs for no apparent reason.
If somebody's got an outstanding FINE and they happen to meet some of these rogue cops, they're likely to end-up thinking "Oh, wait! So fines cause cops to become hostile?!"

Some stuff can afford to be a bit shonky and people will just live with it.
Other things NEED to be spot-on, or you can't expect people to be able to understand them and, in the case of rules, abide by them.

 

[StiTch]

Some stuff can afford to be a bit shonky and people will just live with it.
Other things NEED to be spot-on, or you can't expect people to be able to understand them and, in the case of rules, abide by them.

Good point that isn't discussed enough. Some game aspects allow for ambiguity, because it adds to mystery and discovery. Others aren't because it creates confusion and frustration. C&P, much like RL law, should not allow for ambiguity. It should be clear-cut, and if FD cannot create this through in-game law and gameplay, could at least develop it through immersion - E.G. the cops explain why you're being arrested as they do so.

 

[Stigbob]

When I want to know how something works I have a go at it and see for myself. Never felt the need to get salty about the results.

 

[Marra Morgan]

IIRC, EVE Online developed a good approach to its C&P system in the form of Safety Locks.

Full Safety on meant that your ship's computer would not let you commit an illegal act.

Partial Safety meant that a pop-up prompt would require you to click an override in order to commit an illegal act.

Safeties Off meant that you knew what you were doing (hopefully!) and took full responsibility for whatever you did, damn the consequences!

I couldn't say for certain if this would help newer players, or those unfamiliar with the system, or if it would impede gameplay too much.

But it still keeps responsibility on the player, which is the approach I prefer.

 

[Jack Schitt]

There are an awful lot of mechanics in ED that don't make much sense, but they're often exacerbated by the poorly and inconsistently worded language used throughout the game. It's not a problem unique to C&P, but C&P seems to be the place where it catches out more players. Or at least does more damage to their gameplay.

I appreciate that the complexity of the code, and the often impenetrably opaque way that FD go about making changes to it, mean that a lot of the functional weirdness may be something we just have to live with. But there's no excuse for the poor in-game documentation. If there are words on the screen for the player to read, they should impart useful and consistent information. They should not leave the player more confused than when they started reading.

Someone needs to sit down and go through all this, removing ambiguities and contradictions and changing terminology when required. It's literally just ASCII. "Anonymous access" is a great example; the station identifies you by ship ID and the various characters on the station services menu call you by your name, how the hell can it be anonymous? People have been complaining about it since the feature first went in, and yet it remains. Even with multi-language localisation, surely things like this are a relatively easy win?

 

[dm06]

These things look kind of complex. All the time my scenario is:
- bounty hunting in hires
- have killed npc accidentally, became wanted, all became red, boost away, navigate to closest IF
- paid the bounty
- return to the system

If this happens very often (probably it is correct time to change tactics, weapons whatever related) then collecting stones in anarchy system till notoriety cool down.

 

[Stealthie]

Someone needs to sit down and go through all this, removing ambiguities and contradictions and changing terminology when required. It's literally just ASCII. "Anonymous access" is a great example; the station identifies you by ship ID and the various characters on the station services menu call you by your name, how the hell can it be anonymous? People have been complaining about it since the feature first went in, and yet it remains. Even with multi-language localisation, surely things like this are a relatively easy win?

This.

Kind of trivial but another example of that is engineering "engines".
Last time I checked, my ships don't actually have any "engines".
They have thrusters which are powered by a power plant.

ED seems to spend a significant amount of time deliberately trying to "catch you out" so the last thing it needs is inconsistencies that can catch the player out unintentionally as well.

 

[dm06]

This.

Kind of trivial but another example of that is engineering "engines".
Last time I checked, my ships don't actually have any "engines".
They have thrusters which are powered by a power plant.

ED seems to spend a significant amount of time deliberately trying to "catch you out" so the last thing it needs is inconsistencies that can catch the player out unintentionally as well.

This is kind of joke, right?
Please take closer look at engineers which does thruster's mods.
Please note that all of them do thruster and fsd mods.
Thrusters and fsd both are "engines", right?
Exactly this engineer's description says.

 

[Z0mbieBabyJesus]

If I'm doing missions I know will issue fines and or bounties, I always hit an interstellar factor before retuning to the originating system to turn in completed missions, and pick up new ones. I've looked minimally into the whole c&p system, but can't say it's overly confusing, nor is it difficult to use.

That said, it would be beneficial for some to have it explained in depth in game. But there is some onus on the player to learn the systems of a game, and getting information for all aspects isn't difficult. Even if it's through a 3rd party. With today's connected world, there isn't really any excuse for not knowing something that is explained somewhere.

C&P for dummies.

Fine and/or bounty, but no noteriety, go to an interstellar factor to wipe.

Fine but no bounty, go to issuing system to pay off fine at station with issuing faction.

Fine and bounty and noteriety, wait (was it 2 hours per kill? I'll confirm later if I remember) for noteriety to drop to zero, then go pay off at interstellar factor.

Dont shoot innocent ships, leave instance if you do damage to one before they explode, or get a noteriety level.

It's not a complicated system. It should be easy to use logic to determine if something is a crime or not. Heck, all missions that are illegal will tell you so.

 

[NeilF]

If any revisit to this means getting rid of hot ships and modules, I'd be up for that. Unnecessarily daft/convoluted IMHO.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

If I'm doing missions I know will issue fines and or bounties, I always hit an interstellar factor before retuning to the originating system to turn in completed missions, and pick up new ones. I've looked minimally into the whole c&p system, but can't say it's overly confusing, nor is it difficult to use.

That said, it would be beneficial for some to have it explained in depth in game. But there is some onus on the player to learn the systems of a game, and getting information for all aspects isn't difficult. Even if it's through a 3rd party. With today's connected world, there isn't really any excuse for not knowing something that is explained somewhere.

C&P for dummies.

Fine and/or bounty, but no noteriety, go to an interstellar factor to wipe.

Fine but no bounty, go to issuing system to pay off fine at station with issuing faction.

Fine and bounty and noteriety, wait (was it 2 hours per kill? I'll confirm later if I remember) for noteriety to drop to zero, then go pay off at interstellar factor.

Dont shoot innocent ships, leave instance if you do damage to one before they explode, or get a noteriety level.

It's not a complicated system. It should be easy to use logic to determine if something is a crime or not. Heck, all missions that are illegal will tell you so.

I don't think the system is complicated but if you are new to the game or take the transaction wording at face value it could be confusing. I decided to go through the process pretending I didn't know anything about it, I've been playing the game and reading the forums here from around 2015 so I'm not new to the C&P process or complaints about it from new and old players.

There are clarity and correctness issues, not an issue if you have experienced the system or discussed it here, I tried googling the bounty as well as the wording and got posts relevant to the old bounty to fine system, so I'm not surprised that we get posts asking how to pay the bounty off. The transaction tab says Security Office when it should say Authority Contact. The text reads fine when it is a bounty, it also says you can pay your fine, not bounty or that being wanted means detention facility.

My statement about the system being dumb is how illogical it is to gain a 500 CR bounty for trespassing but some how not getting a bounty for destroying that faction's skimmers. I also think it is illogical to go to a detention facility for trespassing, it should be a fine.

Beyond all that I think these kind of missions are silly and require no skill. I could data scan my own ship from over 300 meters away but couldn't target the data point just a few degrees away or scan it unless I trespassed and the skimmers became hostile. There was no way to use stealth or skill to get the data without getting detected, wanted and then have to pay off the bounty. It's basically, here, take this mission, you will become wanted, there's no way around that, but don't worry just find an IF and pay it off.

The mission is wrote and perfunctory. It might be possible to create a similar mission that required some thinking or skill but that would be easier with space legs. You might have to find a way to take out the security perimeter by disabling some site or object nearby, then quickly take out the skimmers before they can ID you and report the attack. If done correctly there would be a way to do it without getting wanted while still have a chance at getting caught. The process of taking out security measures would entail greater risk vs. reward, failure would mean a higher bounty but success would feel more rewarding.

A before anyone makes assumptions, I'm not salty or upset with the C&P system, the mission, or the game. I was halfway to a planet that had an IF facility (115k LS) but wanted to see the system in action. I would like to see the C&P system, missions and the game as a whole improve but there are areas like this process and the missions that really need some attention.