Newcomer / Intro Yep, another newbie who can't control their ship...

brotherswing

B
It's been about fifteen years since I played a space combat sim, but I am a veteran of Wing Commander, Freespace, and Tachyon: The Fringe... None of them ever felt like this. I know the learning curve for this game is steep, and I'm okay with that. I play Stellaris regularly, so...yeah. I don't mind putting in the effort, just the early game experience here really feels like the developers wanted to punch me in the face. I want to like this game, but so far I don't.
I finally decided to try ED, initially with just ye olde keyboard and mouse, as I lost my old Logitech Wingman in move years ago. I couldn't get through the rings in the training mission. I then decided to try a game controller, a Nintendo Core I bought for the kids last year. I went into the bindings to assign the various axis to things like pitch and yaw, plus the buttons I thought would be useful. Once I jumped back into the training mission, I discovered that while the controls were more accessible, I didn't really have any more control over the ship. It moves sluggishly and most certainly doesn't feel like a fighter. The turn rate feels like I'm piloting a freighter, and I couldn't even destroy the training drone. The ship just can't turn fast enough to maintain any kind of firing solution. The game is virtually unplayable for me right now, and I'm starting to see that that's the normal experience for almost all starting players.
I guess my question is this...is it even worth it? It seems like I'll need to invest a LOT of time just to get the game playable, which it ought to be right out of the box. Are my expectations unrealistic?
 

SlickPBW

S
Yes it’s worth it.

No it really doesn’t take that much time to be good enough to not accidentally kill yourself

Yes if you like other space games you will probably like ED.

yea there are bugs and performance issues and bugs

I recommend a HOTAS but KB/M is entirely viable

and yea there are bugs.
 

Codger

Codger
Are you managing your pips and keeping throttle in the blue to get the best maneuverability out of your ship?

If that sentence didn't make sense to you, then it means that you don't understand how ED ships work, and need to read up a bit on it.

ED ships are wonderful to fly once you understand them. Yaw is intentionally slow, but pitch and rotation are snappy (in small ships :) ). Getting a firing solution on the training drone is actually easy, but only once you come to grips with the flight model in ED.

Start here, perhaps. The guides I followed back when I started are gone or out of date now. This one looks fairly accurate.

thecakeisaliegaming.wordpress.com

An in-depth beginner’s guide to Elite: Dangerous

My in-depth, regularly-updated beginner’s guide to the core gameplay and concepts of Elite: Dangerous. Last revised 1 January 2021.
thecakeisaliegaming.wordpress.com thecakeisaliegaming.wordpress.com
 

Zak Gordon

Zak Gordon
brotherswing said:
The turn rate feels like I'm piloting a freighter, and I couldn't even destroy the training drone. The ship just can't turn fast enough to maintain any kind of firing solution. The game is virtually unplayable for me right now, and I'm starting to see that that's the normal experience for almost all starting players.
I guess my question is this...is it even worth it? It seems like I'll need to invest a LOT of time just to get the game playable, which it ought to be right out of the box. Are my expectations unrealistic?
Click to expand...

ED has sort of followed the original Elites control system to the extent it is all about the roll and pitch being more useful than 'turn rate'. Did you play any of the other Elite titles from years back? So what you are fighting is a (reasonable) desire to turn through the horizontal plane that the flight model is not set up to do. So you need to learn to roll and pitch to get on target.

Frontier (Elite II) and Frontier: First Encounters (the last Elite game before ED) used near newtonian flight models and had fast turn rates compared to ED. It was using a different flight model and quite a few original Elite players did not enjoy that change, so we have sort of gone back to the original system in ED.

I would say you don't need a HOTAS (yes i know people love these!), but the game feels better with a generic joystick and the keyboard+mouse system imho. Console players mostly use their gamepads so the game seems to be ok with them in general (i have not tried).
 
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Ashnak

Ashnak
The game is playable out of the box - but depending on what kind of controls you decide upon, be prepared to spend a couple of days at least to configure them to your liking. EDRefcard is a good place to help you with that.

As for the fighting capabilities of the default starter ship: yes. The Sidewinder is the smallest, cheapest ship in the ED Galaxy - and the "out of the showroom" setup (but that goes for all the currently 38 ships) is just barely good enough to move it from the showroom to the parking lot. And, if things haven't changed too much, the combat tutorials aren't mandatory. Recommended, sure - but not mandatory. That goes doubly so for the more advanced combat tutorials. One hint, if you struggle with the ship's agility: keep your throttle "in the blue", i.e. around 75% throttle. That gives you the best agility.

Oh, and ED employs a kind of WWII dogfighting flight model, at least with flight assist on. For most ships, yaw is the slowest of the three rotations, roll&pitch will get you there much faster - which may be the reason why yaw isn't even bound in the default gamepad bindings. You can also argue thatthis stems from the ship model, most of which look like a squished turtle, and the thruster placement.

And if you think all ships are that sluggish - they're not. Especially not if you let the Engineers give them a little TLC.
This is the basic Sidewinder as it comes off the showroom floor (note the numbers for speed top left, and the agility lower right): https://s.orbis.zone/ii0y
And this is a hotrodded racing Sidewinder: https://s.orbis.zone/ii0_ - still can't yaw, but otherwise runs like a bat out of hell, although it's still quite a bit from the fastest or most agile ship in the game
 

timedriver

timedriver
I'm kind of on the same page as well with the newest xbox controller and got as far as the armed drone in the training but am struggling but glad to see these replies for some encouragement to keep moving on. I do have the edrecard though which is helpful.
 

HRDiagram

HRDiagram
As other have said, do not give up, yet! The stock Sidewinder is just to get a general idea, but it is nowhere near the experience you get with other ships (and engineering).
I am no expert at all in space combat, but one thing I really appreciate is how every ship feels different: all have different combinations of pitch/roll/yaw rates as well as speed and inertia, and discovering which one suits me best has been one of the charming parts of my learing curve!
 

d8veh

d8veh
I've played the game OK with an Xbox type controller. It was OK for most things, but for combat, you really need either KB and mouse or HOTAS. I prefer HOTAS.

You make the ship more manoevrable by putting 4 pips to engines, but then you don't have enough power in your weapons or shields. Part of the skill of the game is to constantly move the pips into the right positions for what you're doing. It takes a bit of practice, but you soon get the hang of it.

Don't worry if you can't shoot the training drone. The combat in the normal game is easier.
 

Rock Hunter

Rock Hunter
I hadn’t done any combat for a few months until I started playing on a reset account and needed access to Broo Tarquin (an Engineer who requires you to reach Competent in combat rank to unlock him, don’t worry you can ignore all that for now.) I was using a Krait MKII with full grade 5 engineered thrusters and thought how sluggish it felt until it dawned on me that I just wasn’t adjusting my pips anywhere near as much as I should be. Even when in a fully G5 engineered ship you need to keep an eye on your power management.

I don’t want to suggest you watch lots of YouTube clips, but if you‘re not averse to YT just type Elite Dangerous combat and watch a couple of minutes (of pretty much anyone’s video) purely at the pips moving about as the pilot changes between manoeuvring, firing and defending. In higher end combat it’s virtually constant.

Thankfully general flight doesn’t require that level of management, just a basic understanding. It’s also worth knowing that the combat tutorials are, or certainly were, known for being tougher than basic in-game combat.

When I started I also went through a similar control path. K&M, Joystick and keyboard and onto a HOTAS, each time having to adjust and get used to my bindings and layouts. You’ll find something that works for you and things will click into place.

If you enjoy space sims/games then I’d be surprised if you don’t find some joy from Elite’s flight model…eventually.

(apologies for the long post, seems I struggle to be concise.)
 

Anticon

Anticon
Stay with it, OP, it's totally worth it once you get past the basics. As others have said, concentrate on roll/pitch to effect your turns. Get out of the training module, fly around in the initial restricted area of the bubble - and just to start with, use an advanced docking computer to minimise your flight worries. It won't be long before it all becomes familiar. But it WILL take you some time to find the right keybinds for your playing style. Good luck, and welcome to the game.
 

Dragsham

Dragsham
Op welcome to the hardest curve of any space sim. Elite.
Clues in the name. Ain't supposed to be easy. And it isn't.
In fact the better you get, the harder it becomes.
Kbm is the best way to go to fly any ship.
But I'm in vr and just love my hotas.
Over time you get better and better.
Speed
Maneuverability
Weight
Power
Weps
Shields
Hull armour
Module protection
Just some of the things you'll have to improve upon using engineering.
The grind is long. But you get some decent ships at the end of it. Made to your custom spec.
Not bought not free either. Elite demands time. Effort. Knowledge.
Good luck o7
 

Nadreck

N
Having played the original Elite, I immediately swapped the bindings for yaw and roll. I've since added a bind for "pitch up" on the spacebar.

Use keys to roll, pitch up to turn, and the mouse for fine control.
 

Anaya

Anaya
Hello, friend.

New player here, I actually logged in for the first time last night and so understand exactly what you mean. Elite really caught me off guard with just how unintuitive the game is. Needless to say, my first delivery mission was a blast, haha.

But I DID get through the tutorial. And I think the crux of the matter is this:

Elite is not a flying game or a space game.
Elite is a simulator.

It fits more in a list with Microsoft Flying Simulator then Star Wars Squadrons. So no, it is not intuitive, and not simple, and not playable "out of the box". Instead I notice the game simulates, in a way that to me feels surprisingly realistic, the troubles and trials of futuristic space adventures.

The acts of landing and taking off, finding a planet, finding a specific settlement on a planet, landing my ship, getting out into my rover, all of that must be done by hand, simulating the actions, rather then being instant with the click of a button. The UI you recieve is also not intuitive straight out of the box, but requires some understanding.

I..Kind of like it, honestly.

But it is a pain to master initially.

Still, keep trying. I eventually got a feel for my ship after I learned accellerate, decelerate, use A and D for left and right, and the mouse to ROLL rather then MOVE. With the caveat that doing both is much more nimble.

Oh, and you're right. You are not piloting a fighter. Your starting ship is more of an allrounder.

As for me, tonight my first HOTAS set is being delivered,and with any luck, my experience will improve immidiately. Looking forward to it.
 

Anaya

Anaya
It really did!
The HOTAS arrived last night and I went from flailing into space like a drunken bat to a proper pilot in control. I am now manouvering around space with a bit of agility.

Going to start gradually building my skills. Looking forward to it.
 

Crumly

C
I read a bunch of the replies, and didn't see this:
Did you possibly turn Flight Assist off? If so, turn that back on and don't listen to anyone say anything differerntly (for now)

Also, go into controls and change mouse horizontal axis to YAW instead of ROLL
Then put ROLL left/right onto the A/D keys

Then set mousewheel to increase/decrease throttle increments by 25% (keep it at 50% for best control)

Having ROLL on your mouse is just plain rediculous. Many commanders will probably disagree but truly...
 

Para Handy

Para Handy
Crumly said:
I read a bunch of the replies, and didn't see this:
Did you possibly turn Flight Assist off? If so, turn that back on and don't listen to anyone say anything differerntly (for now)

Also, go into controls and change mouse horizontal axis to YAW instead of ROLL
Then put ROLL left/right onto the A/D keys

Then set mousewheel to increase/decrease throttle increments by 25% (keep it at 50% for best control)

Having ROLL on your mouse is just plain rediculous. Many commanders will probably disagree but truly...
Click to expand...

The reason that roll is espoused is due to the relative rates of movement. It is much quicker to turn to a new heading by using roll and pitch than by using yaw alone.

The ships in Elite have specifically been set this way to avoid them being used effectively as turrets. (I am sure you know this since you have been around a while. ;) )
 

Crumly

C
Para Handy said:
The reason that roll is espoused is due to the relative rates of movement. It is much quicker to turn to a new heading by using roll and pitch than by using yaw alone.

The ships in Elite have specifically been set this way to avoid them being used effectively as turrets. (I am sure you know this since you have been around a while. ;) )
Click to expand...
Yep, and I'm not trying to downplay how crucial, absolutely critical roll is, it's just far easier to control it was A/D than mouse. It wasn't my idea, it was a sticky post on the forums years and years ago. I have wondered someetimes if this has held me back when trying to learn more advanced piloting techniques though.

edit:
it's actually from the stickied/pinned guide at the top of this sub forum, just went and checked
 
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