The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[SteveWW57]

Blame FDev for the grind, not the gankers.

The engineering grind is optional, not mandatory. It is the gankers and those supporting ganking that are pushing for those not interested to go through it to potentially survive being attacked. Whether they engineer or not, the odds are still with the ganker who risks little.

If you spend hours to build a murder boat, why shouldn't you be allowed to use it?

Use it on someone interested in PvP and not a much weaker opponent who offers no challenge.

By the way, gank evasion is a PvP playstyle. I take my unarmed ships to ganker hotspots on purpose. I do missions right on their turf. If ganking was against the rules of the game, it would ruin the fun for me. NPC pirates are not a threat and not a replacement for hostile players coming after you.

Gank evasion is not a PvP playstyle, it is play required by those that do not want to engage in PvP. You enjoy the ganking, but many do not enjoy having hostile players attempting to destroy them.

Steve

 

[Sakashiro]

The engineering grind is optional, not mandatory. It is the gankers and those supporting ganking that are pushing for those not interested to go through it to potentially survive being attacked. Whether they engineer or not, the odds are still with the ganker who risks little.


Use it on someone interested in PvP and not a much weaker opponent who offers no challenge.

Gank evasion is not a PvP playstyle, it is play required by those that do not want to engage in PvP. You enjoy the ganking, but many do not enjoy having hostile players attempting to destroy them.

Steve

See, this is why I'm arguing in that other thread. If engineering wasn't such a huge time sink, more people would fly engineered ships, and ganking would be much harder than it is now. Even the Adder, the fourth-cheapest ship in the game, can be engineered to become ungankable. However, the game rewards time investment over skill, and that is unfair to casual players. Outlawing the gankers is the wrong approach. The right one is to make engineering less time-consuming and more accessible to the average player.

 

[Brrokk]

See, this is why I'm arguing in that other thread. If engineering wasn't such a huge time sink, more people would fly engineered ships, and ganking would be much harder than it is now. Even the Adder, the fourth-cheapest ship in the game, can be engineered to become ungankable. However, the game rewards time investment over skill, and that is unfair to casual players. Outlawing the gankers is the wrong approach. The right one is to make engineering less time-consuming and more accessible to the average player.

Where do you get the idea that most people don't fly engineered ships? All the people I know in-game do so.

 

[Sakashiro]

Where do you get the idea that most people don't fly engineered ships? All the people I know in-game do so.

I don't remember saying "most". There are players who stay in solo because they don't want to invest the time it takes to make their ships fit for open. Obviously you will never meet them in-game.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

See, this is why I'm arguing in that other thread. If engineering wasn't such a huge time sink, more people would fly engineered ships, and ganking would be much harder than it is now. Even the Adder, the fourth-cheapest ship in the game, can be engineered to become ungankable. However, the game rewards time investment over skill, and that is unfair to casual players. Outlawing the gankers is the wrong approach. The right one is to make engineering less time-consuming and more accessible to the average player.

The time investment to engineer is miniscule compared to the time it takes to actually get good at the game, and I cannot stress this enough. That said, if all you're doing is clubbing Asp Explorers, there isn't much of an engineering or skill requirement.

Thankfully, the requirements to simply survive in open in terms of both engineering and technique are achievable after a relatively small amount of time spent in game. It's just a matter of getting people to try, instead of coming here to complain, or giving up at the first instance of failure.

You really only need a 100% min-maxed killing machine if you want to PvP in a competitive sense, and even then, that's against top guys. I've beaten back plenty of low-level ganks in goofy ships not meant for combat.

With proper technique and practice, you can get away from danger with a surprisingly small amount of engineering.

 

[TobiasFuzz]

(My rank is higher than yours, so you have to believe me )

I have to, man, i have to.... thats why i asked for your advise in your cutter/reactive armour thread.

 

[Darrack]

If ganking wasn't an acceptable playstyle, it would be against the rules, cmdrs. But it's not, so regardless of how you feel about it, if a wing wants to 4v1 your Cobra, it's well within the parameters of the game for them to do so. You don't have to like it, but that's the truth.

Thankfully, we have options to deal with this sort of thing.

1. Alternative modes. Yes, the 100% reliable method of playing with only people you like, who you even get to hand pick-- Private Group. 99% safe space so long as you don't invite the wrong person. Solo, however lonely, is 100% effective at avoiding ganks and unwanted interactions.

2. Engineering. Often overlooked by people who 'Don't have the time' (1,000+ hours logged). Or 'Don't want to be told how to play' (Complains online, tells other people how they should be able to play). Engineering allows your ship to be, in some cases, twice as fast, and twice as durable. This max-level can be achieved in approximately 24 hours of cumulative play. Thankfully, engineering to a lesser (and sufficient) degree, can be had in much less time.

3. Practice. Evasion in Elite Dangerous is laughably easy, so easy in fact, that even I am able to do it. Combined with the above (See 2. Engineering), you can become virtually un-killable. Now, this is only attainable if you are willing to put forth some mild effort. No one can do it for you. At this point in the game's life, you have all the tools you need already, all of the trial and error has been done for you. But you have to do your part.

And here we are back to the main issue.
Most folks will chose option 1
And because Options 2 and 3 will not make a blind bit of difference to someone in a mining ship Vs a wing of attackers you are never going to persuade folks to join Open and thus our Hotel California thread will continue with Pvpers complaining that there are no targets and BGS/PP players moaning forever and a day that Solo/PG continues to influence their universe.

The moaning will continue but not from those of us safe to play as we want, unhindered, until we are given a valid reason to get behind your cause, and unfortunately we are in the majority.

I still go back to my old statement of PvP folks switching to Solo/PG for a better chance of CG rankings why's that then?

Gankers i can easily cope with in open, just block them but the constant having to deal with complete muppets blocking pads/port entrances, the idiots with ship names that are clearly compensation for a small er IQ and the infantile behavior of basement warriors ruins the whole experience for me.

O7

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

The majority here on the forums, perhaps.

Complaining about lack of targets/players in open is the most persistent straw man on these forums that comes from people who rarely even play open. For every vocal player who gets ganked once and never returns to open, there’s plenty who don’t.

I don’t care if someone stays in PG/Solo, as there are plenty of people, like myself, who get knocked down a time or two, and bounce back. There are more people with the desire to take the risks, and overcome it for the sake of excitement than one may believe— they just spend more time working toward that goal and playing instead of well, coming here and begging Fdev to gut open play.

For those who are strictly Solo/PG, I respect your choice. Just know that your shieldless trader adds about as much to my experience as a max-engineered murder boat does to yours— little and nothing. Missing a ship that dies one volley isn’t going to crush the open play community, as we’re still swimming in those, should we choose to go after them. Not my thing personally, but trust me, they’re around. Plenty of murder boats to shoot at anyway.

Now, folks have been warning that open play would be a desolate wasteland because of all the gankers for as long as the game has existed, and yet, here we are. Eight years in and depending on the state of the game, and where I am in the galaxy, I’m gonna find some people. Whether they’re shooting at me, getting shot by me, or just saying hello in passing, we’re still here. We never left, and we’re thriving as much as Fdev will allow us to.

Game activity comes in waves, and it always has. Sometimes it might be quiet, but that’s the nature of a game with such an immense world and… interesting leadership. Fdev’s actions, whether adding content, fixing it, or breaking it have far more of an effect on these numbers than some random T9 getting exploded by a wing somewhere.

Hell, Fdev dumping consoles is the single worst thing to happen to our numbers in ages, with so many abandoning ship for PC, or preparing to hang it up entirely when we’re inevitably forgotten.

 

[varonica]

Where do you get the idea that most people don't fly engineered ships? All the people I know in-game do so.

Yeah, sometimes it's specific to the player though, for instance I have no engineered weapons, I don't carry weapons so why would I bother even unlocking those engineers, although some people see the need to unlock and level up every engineer as some sort of achievement, then complain about the grind, but I see that rather as a pointless waste of time, if you don't need something don't do it.

 

[Tetra Trash]

If ganking wasn't an acceptable playstyle, it would be against the rules, cmdrs. But it's not, so regardless of how you feel about it, if a wing wants to 4v1 your Cobra, it's well within the parameters of the game for them to do so. You don't have to like it, but that's the truth.
…

You forgot something - if blocking players who you don’t want to play with (because they ganked you, or whatever reason you feel like) wasn’t an acceptable response, it would be against the rules, CMDRs. But it’s not, and FDEV has actually made it easier over time. They’ve never given any indication that there is any reason you can’t or shouldn’t block someone. So regardless of how you feel about how it might affect your instancing or your gameplay it’s well within the parameters of the game for them to do so. You don’t have to like it, but that’s the truth.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

I feel like you’re assuming I have something against blocking people.

If a player wants to block everyone who slights them, that’s their business. Seems like a silly extra step when you can just go PG or do a bit of engineering, but at the end of the day, that’s their prerogative.

Same vein as menu-logging. It’s frowned upon, especially if you’re the aggressor, but perfectly acceptable by Fdev’s standards.

The only instance where I could possibly complain about blocking, is if you’re someone who is actively seeking PvP, and using the block function to disrupt being matched with more capable rivals involved in the fight. Instancing is notoriously bad to begin with, especially between certian regions, but thankfully this is rare among dedicated PvP groups.

If some random explorer, trader, or PvE grinder wants to block people, that’s no skin off my back.

 

[Sakashiro]

the idiots with ship names that are clearly compensation for a small er IQ

Please stop insulting other players.

 

[SteveWW57]

If a player wants to block everyone who slights them, that’s their business. Seems like a silly extra step when you can just go PG or do a bit of engineering, but at the end of the day, that’s their prerogative.

I believe that the reason a CMDR would use the block and stay in open, is to still have the opportunity to meet and co-operate with others, without the unwanted hassle of being ganked.

Same vein as menu-logging. It’s frowned upon, especially if you’re the aggressor, but perfectly acceptable by Fdev’s standards.

Frowned upon? By whom? The gankers/PvPers? Just because menu logging stops unwanted PvP encounters, it is not, except in the minds of a subset of the community, an action that is "bad play/poor sport" etc. Destroying a ship that is no match for you is in my view to be frowned upon and is bad play/poor sport.

If you are not interested in the PvP experience, an acceptable way to get out of an undesirable situation.

The only instance where I could possibly complain about blocking, is if you’re someone who is actively seeking PvP, and using the block function to disrupt being matched with more capable rivals involved in the fight. Instancing is notoriously bad to begin with, especially between certian regions, but thankfully this is rare among dedicated PvP groups.

Funny this. Lots of complaints all the time about those not interested in PvP using the block function, but this must be one of the few times I have seen a possible complaint about a PvPer using the block function to avoid fights with those who are better. Such players appear to be quite happy to destroy unarmed ships, and are likely to complain about them being blocked and menu logging.

If some random explorer, trader, or PvE grinder wants to block people, that’s no skin off my back.

You may not have an issue with blocking, but from the posts it appears that some do, and advocate for open only, no blocking play.

Steve

P.S. The current CGs are a bit less than motivating at the moment and bit boring. Let alone rewarding. So instead of running deliveries using a medium or large ship in solo I took a small ship out running 14t at a time. Got interdicted six times in a row by the same CMDR in the space of 5 minutes. Would barely get back into super cruise only to get interdicted again within seconds. Was this interesting or exciting game play for me? Absolutely not. Just a waste of my time and a lot less productive. At least I got to say "07" to a few friendlies in the area.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

If the player is not on INARA (or is not to be identified there) the rule could not be used of course. Luckily most players are on INARA and easy to find.

Edit: I didn't mean it that seriously by the way.

I thought Inara claimed they had about 5-10% of Cmdrs.
In any case I looked at Inara early on and decided it was mostly anatomy measuring which I wasn't interested in.
The game itself had a reputation for gankers,(I don't think there's any way of coding a multi-player game that prevents griefing) though aside from known and frequently mentioned hotspots I haven't had a hostile encounter.
Being aware of where you are and what's on the scanner is the best defence in my experience.

 

[Sakashiro]

It's just a matter of getting people to try, instead of coming here to complain, or giving up at the first instance of failure.

One thing I've observed in this thread and similar ones is that if you do try to encourage people to join open with a gank-resilient ship, it is often construed as "moaning about open being empty".

Anyway, I disagree about the engineer grind being miniscule. The process of gathering materials appears to be intentionally designed to be slow and/or boring, and I completely understand that some players can't be bothered to go through it to adapt their ships to a more hostile environment when the solo button is just a click away. But that's not the gankers' fault, it's FDev's. Engineering has broken the balance of the game by giving an unfair advantage to full-time players that goes beyond skill.

 

[Ettanin]

Skill vs Gear

I will start thanking everybody who wished me happy birthday. Thank you guys. There was a time I lacked skill but had time, so MMORPGs appeal to me because if you invested your time on it, you could achieve virtual fame and glory. I like to think my skills improved but more importantly, my time...

www.nerfnow.com

Another reason why open is empty or block lists get filled.

 

[Darrack]

Engineering has broken the balance of the game by giving an unfair advantage to full-time players that goes beyond skill

There is no skill involved in PvP in Elite, its not hard to attack a trader/miner in a combat modified ship regardless of whether its engineered or not.
The only skill comes when two (or more) evenly matched ships engage in a battle.
Its like saying your Audi (other cars are available) is going to be evenly matched in a head on collision with my Scania V8 (to give a real world example).

All this rubbish about engineering your ship to survive in Open is just a smoke screen to hide that fact.
Why would someone handicap their mining/trading ship build just to counter ganking muppets?

When you have to block everyone in sight at main hubs (and yes we have to go there) or CG stations you know there's an issue.
What makes me really laugh is folks complaining about blocking, you brought it on yourself and i don't care if it ruins your instancing because you wanted to ruin my day.
(not you as Sakashiro, but general )

O7

 

[TobiasFuzz]

I thought Inara claimed they had about 5-10% of Cmdrs.
In any case I looked at Inara early on and decided it was mostly anatomy measuring which I wasn't interested in.
The game itself had a reputation for gankers,(I don't think there's any way of coding a multi-player game that prevents griefing) though aside from known and frequently mentioned hotspots I haven't had a hostile encounter.
Being aware of where you are and what's on the scanner is the best defence in my experience.

I dont know the numbers for players that are present on INARA. But most (~ 8 out of 10) of the players i searched for on INARA i did found there. Could be that it is a special type of player i am normally looking up... squad members that engage in BGS.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The process of gathering materials appears to be intentionally designed to be slow and/or boring, and I completely understand that some players can't be bothered to go through it to adapt their ships to a more hostile environment when the solo button is just a click away. But that's not the gankers' fault, it's FDev's. Engineering has broken the balance of the game by giving an unfair advantage to full-time players that goes beyond skill.

Some players being disinclined to play among gankers pre-dates the introduction of engineering - as ships outfitted for different roles had quite different survivability / offensive characteristics even before engineering.

 

[Brrokk]

Some players being disinclined to play among gankers pre-dates the introduction of engineering - as ships outfitted for different roles had quite different survivability / offensive characteristics even before engineering.

That's true. I started playing about when engineers were introduced, and Hotel California was already old.